Smoke

[intoodeep]

I came across this photo a while back and always thought.... Why so much black smoke? What do you think?

[EL Caz 66]

I think its that Smoke creatures from that TV show LOST

[cannonmn]

Never fear, I've borrowed some of your bandwidth to post that pic on the NSSA board, they will probably know.  That pic is really weird though, the only black-smokin' artillery I've seen used nitrocellulose.  Maybe the black powder in that cannon was sooo slooow burnin' that's its still black comin' out of the muzzle?  Or they made home-brew powder and put waaay too much charcoal in it?   

[GGaskill]

Perhaps fouling from previous shots being blown out along with the smoke.

[MR.GADGET]

I would say that it had a lot of oil or water in the tube. Maybe that was the first shot the tube was put up with motor oil or something to keep down the rust. Or no wads to up the pressure and get a good burn and you are seeing powder just starting to burn mixed in.

What about no smoke?

[cannonmn]

Ok here we go, I thought about it for a long time and here's the all-too-obvious answer:

They were using white powder instead of black powder.  If black powder makes white smoke, then white powder....

[intoodeep]

Ok here we go, I thought about it for a long time and here's the all-too-obvious answer:

They were using white powder instead of black powder.  If black powder makes white smoke, then white powder....

Ha Ha.  I deserve that.       Almost looks like they swapped the bore with Diesel. That things tossing out black smoke like a locomotive.

[kappullen]

Even a steam engine running clean puts out white smoke!



Many of the pictures you see are photo run bys where the fireman smothers

the fire causing that black smoke.

Diesels frequently look crummy like that.

That's poor combustion for some reason?

Kap

[cannonmn]

The smokeless one must be propane/oxygen.  I can't see any tanks or hoses but they could be hidden.

[MR.GADGET]

The pic I posted is real and our gun shooting a blank (several) down town Raleigh.
If I remember its about 4-6 oz black powder and steel wool (0000) with wet paper over top to make pressure, is what we shoot when we can't shoot a real balls.
The steel wool makes for a real cool flash and even better for night time.

[cannonmn]

Gadget, you may have invented something, at least for blanks.  I could speculate that the lack of smoke indicates the smoke particles, which are actally unburned solids, were burned up in the bore by the addition of the steel wool.  That means a lot more of the powder was burned up and you probably got more bang for the buck, since steel wood isn't that expensive.  I've got a small local shoot going on this Sunday near Culpeper VA (may 3 guns) and I intend to try that.  If I shoot it with a projectile, I will only do it with a very strong solid steel gun, since I don't know what kind of pressures will result.  Meanwhile, I'd recommend only for blanks.  Also, the wet newspaper wadding is something that's kind of frowned upon as you probably know.

I'm not sure I want to the steel wool in a nice shiny steel bore since some of it might fuse onto the barrel and be hard to get out, but "we'll see."

[dan610324]

of course its an diesel cannon  
couldn't be anything else .

but I will test that idea of white powder creating black smoke .
I always eating something with white powder in it for breakfast (meal)
if that correct it would create black smoke when I fart  

must test that tomorrow  

OK , serious again
if that photo had been taken just a few hundreds of an sec later it would probably just been an flame.
think that an bullet travel with an speed of 400 m/sec, that mean 4 meter at 1/100 Th of an sec
normally when taking an video with an standard camera you only take 30 frames / sec .
that means the bullet travel approximately 14 yards between 2 photos , the gas cloud will do a lot in that time .

is there anyone knowing an webaddress to where to see an muzzleloader firing taken with an extremely high speed camera ??
if so I believe there is many of us who wants to see it .
I have seen modern tank cannons in extreme slowmotion , that's also interesting .
I believe it was on you tube , sorry but I dint remember what search word I used .  

[dan610324]

I got an Norwegian friend who tested to use wet newspaper wadding when firing blanks ,
but he stopped with that and now he is using rockwool insulation instead .

he placed an empty 208 liter steel barrel in front of the gun , approximately 9 - 10 feet away .
you know that model you get when you buy oil .
the paper wadding went through both sides of the barrel .

always think of the safety , also when firing blanks.
Im quite sure such an wadding could kill an human 50 yards away .

[MR.GADGET]

Let me say this, the blanks that we shoot are for display and on a range just as we would shoot live fire. We are not shooting at or near people that could be hit by the paper. Plus we are using only a page or two. I think that will be the difference in what most people do. I will never and have never shoot a cannon where anyone was with in danger of the Ball or the little bit of paper we use.
For the most part it is done on our shooting range for night fire so people can get Pictures when we host a match.
Very few times do we get to shoot like that Pic in a CW grave site. 

[dan610324]

hi mr Gadget

Im quite sure you have a lot of smoke in the nextcomming photos from that video ,
this picture is just taken at the exact moment when all powder is burning .
maybe you also got some black smoke from before that photo .

[MR.GADGET]

Yep always a lot of smoke. Its all timing.

[dan610324]

ooooohhh sure , I know all about timing   

I dont know how many rolls of film I used to try to have an perfect photo of an muzzle blast in the time period before the digital cameras . it must be well over 100 rolls , did I get any photo ??  of course not     just white smoke

[Terry C.]

Ah yes, timing...

Lots of chance involved.

These images are old, taken with a digital camera that could only make small and crappy videos.

But in the first capture, you can see the initial, very tight fireball before it expands into a smoke cloud:



The next capture is from another video and the timing of the frames is slightly different. Here the fireball has already been blown out and away from the muzzle and the cannon is belching smoke:




The precise moment in the first image is very difficult to capture and it's only by chance that I was able to get it.

[dan610324]

if those 2 photos would have been from the same video it would probably been the 2 photos after each other .
its so tiny differences in timing between an normal good photo and an extremely nice photo .

all 3 photos here , the one with the black unburnt powder and the photos with the fireball are for sure rare .
you got to be extremely lucky to have those pictures in an video sequence .

[MR.GADGET]

Good Pictures of fire, smoke and ball......

[Double D]

Sometimes you get double lucky!

[cannonmn]

You can see muzzle flashes a lot better after sunset.

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[dan610324]

thats an nice video , just a pity you had no flash light , would have been very interesting to see the damages to the steel plate and concrete blocks .

[cannonmn]

damages to the steel plate and concrete blocks .

All we found of the blocks was some white dust.  I think the plate went over the mountain somewhere.

[dan610324]

was it solid concrete or hollow building stones ??

[cannonmn]

They were the hollow kind.

[KABAR2]

The pic I posted is real and our gun shooting a blank (several) down town Raleigh.
If I remember its about 4-6 oz black powder and steel wool (0000) with wet paper over top to make pressure, is what we shoot when we can't shoot a real balls.
The steel wool makes for a real cool flash and even better for night time.

I have not been a real fan of wet wadding, like you say "to make pressure" the amount of pressure depending on how much wet wadding is used
can create more pressure than is desired stressing your tube.

Steel wool looks pretty at night, but I know of one case where a large tent was set alight with it and at one reenactment where the wrong box of blank
loads were used set the field alight due to the dry conditions.

Its best sticking with Aluminum foil and avoid legal issues like a ruptured tube can cause after wet wadding, or the burned down historic structure because of steel wool.

[Cat Whisperer]

...
 with wet paper over top to make pressure, is what we shoot when we can't shoot a real balls.
...

Using wet paper can indeed raise the pressure!  It can (I've seen it) raise the pressure to the point where the cannon explodes. 
Not something to be taken lightly.

[dan610324]

is it anyone here who can explain for me  how an wet wadding of small or normal size can raise the pressure to the point that it will be dangerous ??  its still not more then 1/10 approximately of the weight of an cast iron bullet , ok max 1/5 if its an very large wadding .

I never use it myself , but I'm very curious to hear an explanation .

I have no experience in the subject , and I believe there are many others here who also would like to hear why it happend and what it is that happend .

is it also dangerous to use an dry newspaper wadding ??

does all of you only use tinfoil charges when shooting blanks ??

or what other waddings are you using ??

lets say that you got an 60 mm caliber cannon and the tinfoil charge is 59 mm , do you just push it slightly in place or do you ram it down hard ??  it would be very interesting to hear different ways to do it and why .

[KABAR2]

The issue is when wet wadding is used it is elastic unlike a cast iron ball it forms a better seal and becomes more
of a plug than a projectile I wish I could find the source but someone did actual testing and wet wadding could
almost double pressures in the tube! I will dig through my stuff and see if I can find it, this may have been published in the
Artilleryman back in the late 70's or early 80's there is at least one published account of a bronze gun failing at a college football game,
granted it was a cored casting and overladed with powder and a heavy wet wad, the chaplets were the failure points.
 The main thing is why place yourself, your cannon and those around it in jeopardy?

another consideration with wet wadding back in 1977 I witnessed wet newspaper fired out of a cannon at a 1" thick pine target of
George the III the target was placed at 20 feet it was blown down, upon inspection it had three holes punched in it, two you could stick two fingers each through, the third four fingers  a low flying bird was also a casualty.