Author Topic: Why the War was fought  (Read 7849 times)

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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2008, 02:09:00 PM »
Just hold on a minute here you SOB's---you can't go and get all mushy on me here. I will not tolerate this hugging, holdin hands a round a camp fire and singing Kumbyya (SP :-\). That is un-American or Confederate. We aint here too love---we is here to fight about this stuff.
I have spoken!!! >:( ;D ;)
It has been fun---but I will deny that later.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2008, 06:23:52 AM »
Wnccester "fact is I never heard a word about it from anyone outside history classes in school.  All the texts we had were written from the North's point of view and I accepted it since there was no alternate information."

Was the same in my case, I have a love of history and civics, just couldn't reconcile what I was taught "the South was BAD" and that drove me to find out the truth; whatever it was. Along comes the computer and my learning took off.

Not to worry WL, just getting my second wind! Now as you were saying? ;) ::) ;D
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2008, 06:49:28 AM »
Save your Confederate money boys!   ;D
I hear ol' Dent Myers up here in Kennesaw got a storeroom full!
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2008, 09:09:31 AM »
I did not ever get a feeling of bad or good--just thoughts of why and who.
The facts are above bad or good--they are far more complex and end up in a fog of it happened.
If slavery was on its way out then there were a lot of misinformed folks. The facts of individual rights over a common good is more likely.
Individual rights, in the long run--when they become larger than common/united/solidarity- rights/will---ultimaely lead to anarchy and then too totalitarianism---as no man is an island. 
Not withstanding the fact that the whole of Southern economics was agrarian--without a hint of industry (broadly speaking)--the south was a set-up for failure---as a loose confederacy.
It wouldn't work and the reason it fell. If the Northern union had not pressed the south--it is a forelorn conclusion that a stronger European nation would have waltzed into the Frey and walked upon the opportunity.
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Offline wncchester

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2008, 01:39:37 PM »
"(Confederacy) wouldn't work and the reason it fell."

The South fell because the North had at least a 4 to 1 advantage in man power it's leaders were not loath to sacrifice to keep a strangle hold on the South's agricultral production. 

Even at that, the North would likely NOT have won if they did not have the shipbuilding capacity to greatly expand their navy to blockade southern ports and, slowly, to conquer the Mississipi River to close access to Texas beef.  After two years of that, the South was largely starved into submission.


"If slavery was on its way out then there were a lot of misinformed folks." 

Fact is, there were indeed a lot of misinformed folks.  People seem to always think "today" is the standard of what is right and today's conditons are what will always be.  That's never true but it persists in human history.  And it certainly doesn't mean we/they are correct in those beliefs.  We, you and I are old enough to clearly remember when scientists firmly argued that space travel was impossible, at least in our life times.  But, it happened before we were thirty.

Do you seriously believe that, failing the success of the North, there would still be slaves in the South?
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline phalanx

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2008, 07:21:18 PM »
It wasn't just England that was about to try and supply the South from ports in Mexico.
The French were very well liked in Mexico , France had suppled and trained their Army for years.
Like the V2 Rocket would have been to WW2 ,the Hunley would have turned the War quickly if it could have been perfected.
So the North did not Win in a cake walk , to think so is a Millitary blunder.
The North had to wake up and realize this was for real , The Bloody nose the North received at Bull Run could have ended it then if the South had kept up the pressure.
Things the South came up with in the war:
Land Mines
Balloons for Aerial  recon.
Poison Gas.
Ariel Shot burst useing the Flechett.
Iorn Clads.
Submarine warfare.
Millitary Codes in Communication.
Crude Claymore mines.
Sea Mines.
Early Biological Warfare.
Like i said it wasn't a cake walk for sure.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2008, 12:30:56 AM »
Did not Mexico Kick the French out ? That is not the same as having French AND German free agents plying their trade in Mexico.
Europe had interest in America that is for sure. The South would have given a perfect opportunity for either Spain, France or England too reestablish a foothold in America. The west was beginning too expand, gold and silver were found, the mineral deposits were of immense interest too Europe and the South would have been too weak too resist.
France, in particular had ulterior motives, it was not a purely noble interest.
The Union could not take the chance of further European conflict. It would have too be a union or complete lose of the Americas.
I am glad I don't speak French. Mexican is my greatest worry.
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2008, 07:10:46 AM »
So you are saying that Lincoln did us a favor by killing 300,000 Men, Women, and Children plus put us into poverty until the 1940's to save us from a European takeover? Wow, thank you so much, Abe.   :o ???  ::)

WL you have missed your calling. Peace.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2008, 03:18:50 PM »
In a larger view I think you are correct.
War is hell.
Putting it as doing a favor by killing is missing the point--or an incorrect way of viewing the outcome.
If it makes you feel better and more secure in your feelings, I don't have a problem with that. They are your feelings.
If it is digging for truth--then your statement is pretty correct.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2008, 12:10:46 AM »
In a larger view I think you are correct.
War is hell.
Putting it as doing a favor by killing is missing the point--or an incorrect way of viewing the outcome.
If it makes you feel better and more secure in your feelings, I don't have a problem with that. They are your feelings.

If it is digging for truth--then your statement is pretty correct.
Blessings

On this we agree; WAR is hell!

Why is it that the people on the Union side who look back at this particular war, where all the lost lives were American, are never upset by the numbers? Its like, its just the cost of doing business, so cold and matter of fact. Of course, I find that same feeling about Vets, when talking about our little shootout in the South China Sea 34/40 years ago to the folks who weren't in that one; also.

William if I were to tell you just how I feel, rather than post only the facts (which is what I do), I have the feeling that Greybeard would ban me altogether!! As it is I will say this: My feelings are that the South was right as to the proper reading of the Constitution and States rights, they had the right to secede but they never should have let it go that far for two reasons: 1. You are right they couldn't win a war and Davis knew it yet he alone approved firing the first shot. and 2. It's always harder to change things if you are on the outside looking in.

Which truth are you referring to: your truth, my truth, or the true truth? You can't know someone else's truth unless you walk in his shoes; the only thing you can hope for is that you have ALL THE FACTS RIGHT/STRAIGHT!!! ;)
Peace
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2008, 07:46:45 AM »
Georgia Windbreak
It is unnecessary too tell me much plainer about how you feel. I understand your feelings. I simply disagree, having the ability too look back--or Monday moring QB--.
You and I both understand how we see things but that does not make it an uninteresting discussion/debate/arguement and it certainly does not me think less of you.
I know some who are still mired in the what ifs, the pride and prejudice of this whole conflict.
I can't understand why but I understand that they are--and will be forever.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2008, 12:33:26 PM »
I see; for me it's all about the truth, not what I want it to be or some fairy tale aka "Ole honest Abe". We might as well listen to Uncle Remus, Uncle Tom's Cabin, or Gone With The Wind.

It was a different time altogether men still called eachother out over some perceived wrong. Horse racing was King and there was a feeling of true freedom. It was a polite society. Yet all the human frailties were still the same as today.

What was Lincoln really like? How about Davis? So much written about the one and so little about the other. Lincoln had to be a self made man, no formal schooling, a father who beat him, a stepmother who adored him, not many friends and most peculiar of all everyone called him Mr. Lincoln to his face even his closest friends and also his wife. He could tell a dirty joke with the best of them but kept his own council. Most here believe he was a believer but not so said his wife and closest friend Hernden; his law partner. To me, he was a driven man and, I think, a very sad and unhappy one at that.

As for Jeff Davis, he was certainly a man of the South, Upper class, schooled at West Point, Son in law to Z.Taylor fought in the Mexican war. Married twice, first to Taylor's Daughter (she died in their first months of marrage) and later to the love of his life, a girl almost half his age. A Slave owner who, by all accounts, broke several laws and made sure his slaves knew how to read and write. His Overseer was one of his slaves who, by his own account trusted him with everything he had including his family. He knew that slavery had run its course and wanted his people to be ready to take care of themselves.

As to debating the war I think its a silly thing to do because its over, the what ifs are just pipe dreams, and will never change the outcome. The things that interest me are the facts and why people continue to overlook them or even worse deny them or that they happened. The thing that saddens me the most are those who call their fellow Americans traitors because they disagreed with the way the country was headed.

Lincoln saved the Federal government, which is what he set out to do, but to those who say he saved the Union I say hogwash. What is it worth if you have to hold it together by the sword? We could have been so much more.

William I would not want you to think that I don't value your opinion, I do, if we all thought the same it would be a much duller world and at my age friendship is something to treasure, a true value. Peace.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #72 on: September 01, 2008, 01:25:42 PM »
What do you percieve as "so much more?"
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2008, 04:19:35 AM »
What do you percieve as "so much more?"
Blessings

Wow, where do I start. Just for openers, No Standing Army. No Federal Government agent telling Gumstump Ga. how to run its school system. No Income Tax. No Lawyers holding Government office, ie. in Congress or the Presidency. If you sit and really think about it the intrusion by the Fed into our daily lives is so great we don't even think about it anymore. And this is just for starters.

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/E/thirteen/thirteen1.htm

Quote
the supreme Court has held that the Bill of Rights is not binding upon the states, and thereby resurrected many of the complaints enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, exactly as Thomas Jefferson foresaw in "Notes on the State of Virginia", Query 17, p. 161, 1784:
"Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless... the time for fixing every essential right on a legal basis is [now] while our rulers are honest, and ourselves united. From the conclusion of this war we shall be going downhill. It will not then be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten, therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves, but in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion."

I had to come back and add this youtube by Newt Gingrich. The important part is in the last 1/2 minute when he talks about us losing our civil liberties; very scary. This would have been impossible under our original government with no standing Army but not now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZiw3qVdFzw

Two very different men warning us of the loss of our liberties that are over 200 years apart from eachother. We didn't have to go down this road, but we did, so sad.

Thats what I mean by "so much more" William; what say you?
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2008, 03:59:17 PM »
No standing army. WOW, WWII would have been an interesting history today--perhaps in German or Japanese.
48 countries, all running their own show--no coperation amongst those who disagree.
Forget Alaska and Hawaii. They would be solidly Japanese and Russian.
Forget much of the territory byond Kansas and TEXAS, by GOD would certainly be a republic---then again we might not have this border fiasco going on.
Yes there would be taxes--the Republic of Georgia might possibly be the largest based on the possible inability too make ends meet based on an agriculture based economy---Mississippi would still be using wagons and oxen.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2008, 02:18:18 AM »
Why all the negativeism. The future would still happen and just maybe there would not have been a WWII because WWI's ending would have been handled differently. Besides you make it sound as if we would have to go back to being a Confederation and thats not what I said. Also the little mess we are now in wouldn't be happening, or at least it would have been so much harder for GWB to get us into, but of course you don't care about that, right? And thanks for thinking the the GREAT State of Georgia would be so backward, just what makes you think Texas would be any better off? Without the war with Mexico you guys might still be speaking spanish. :o

Think of this thread when the Black Shoes come knocking at your door next time. "When you trade Liberty for Safety you end up with neither."
Peace.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2008, 09:30:02 AM »
It would have too be a Confederation--what was all the fuss about if not a confederation.
I agree that it is a what if game.
I would contend it would not have been the nation we know now....Better? I really cannot stretch my mind around that.
I do think that a great portion of this land would be under a European government or two.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #77 on: September 04, 2008, 11:29:46 PM »
It would have too be a Confederation--what was all the fuss about if not a confederation.
I agree that it is a what if game.
I would contend it would not have been the nation we know now....Better? I really cannot stretch my mind around that.
I do think that a great portion of this land would be under a European government or two.
Blessings

The fight was about the Federal government overstepping its Constitutional bounds. Just answer me one question. Why not? No it wouldn't be the same as what we now have but the chance that it would be better is just as good as the chance that it wouldn't. I think you are wrong about Europe because I think that it wouldn't have taken more than 20/30 years for the two sides to get back together. As I have said before it was a bad move to leave; you can't change things if you are on the outside looking in.

 Believe it or not Slavery was dying; even the Southern planters of that day knew it was coming. I haven't found one book that says differently. The real problem was how to get it done in a humane way so that the slaves would have a real chance to enjoy the freedom they were about to be given and be self sufficient. Surely you can't sit there and honestly say the way it was done was great?.

As for Lincoln and his rape of the Constitution; that would have never happen nor the "Total War" Sherman persued. There are alot of negative things that did happen because of the war that wouldn't have if there had been no war. For one we wouldn't be having these talks would we?

Peace
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #78 on: September 05, 2008, 01:30:37 AM »
I agree about the talks we are having.
I think we would have found something else too argue about and occupy our time, however. :D ;)
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2008, 09:11:15 AM »
Oh, William, arguing?? And I thought it was called debating. Its against my religion to argue. ;D ;) :o

You know pretty soon I'll have to stop as the woods are calling!!!
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2008, 12:10:57 PM »
Try indoor plumbing  ;)----I assume that was not the reason for the woods though  ::) :o :-*
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2008, 02:00:44 AM »
I think he was talking about hunting , but then one can't always know the readers perspective now can one .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2008, 02:43:53 AM »
So right SHOOTALL.++ WL you really need to raise the level of your thoughts. ;) ;D
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #83 on: September 22, 2008, 02:56:43 PM »
You laid that one on me as I had turned tail and was running from Ike------and that is no fair, you cheater you.
My mind is a consideration that is rarely discussed in polite circles.
NOW THAT I HAVE A/C AGAIN--I is ready too continue.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #84 on: September 22, 2008, 04:48:26 PM »
NOW THAT I HAVE A/C AGAIN--I is ready too continue.

I was wonderin' why you got back in these threads again!   ;D

SAVE YO CONFEDERATE MONEY BOYS!  THE SOUTH GONNA RISE AGAIN!!
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
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Offline Spanky

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #85 on: September 23, 2008, 12:16:06 PM »
Gentlemen,

I have read and re-read this entire post several times and I can honestly say that I have learned more about The Civil War from these posts than I did in high school.

I am from NY so naturally I was raised/taught to think that the war was fought over slavery.

THANK YOU very much for opening my eyes and teaching me.
I honestly appreciate it.



Spanky

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #86 on: September 23, 2008, 01:13:30 PM »
THANK YOU very much for opening my eyes and teaching me.
I honestly appreciate it.

Shoooot!   :o  You keep talking like that an we gonna have to make you an honorary Jawja boy!   ;D
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
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Offline wncchester

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2008, 04:16:20 PM »
"I am from NY so naturally I was raised/taught to think that the war was fought over slavery.  THANK YOU very much for opening my eyes and teaching me.  I honestly appreciate it."

Spanky - Thank YOU!  I believe the whole reason we, most of us anyway, try to get the truth out though the lock on history books is to get our people, both sides, to actually KNOW what brought that confict about and how it was fought that generated so much animosity in the South for so many years.

Yeah, it's over and done, none of us would wish to do it over.  We are Americans and like it that way.  But the North's (perhaps unconscious) desire to continue to humiliate the South by mistating the causes of the seperation that was attempted in 1861 demands that we continue to at least try to get the "real"  truths out in the open.  It's sort of a "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" thing for us.

You may be too young to remember the race riots of the 60s and 70s.  The worst, by far, were in the cities of the NORTH, not the South!  New York, Philidelphia, Boston, Detroit, etc, were in flames for months.  NOTHING like that happened in the South!  But today, every TV talking head and libral politicians and "educators" want to ignore that fact and continue to rant about the "injustices" in the South.

Well, if the North was so pure about racism would it not follow that northern cities would have been, then and now, relitively free of racial conflict?  You know the truth about that without me pointing it out!  Rarely are there any serious racial conflicts in the South and, also a fact, most of those that do occur are instigated by, or at least fanned by, outside agitators.

I and other southerners appreciate your honesty and seriously listening to what we have said here. 

Bless YOU!  May your tribe increase.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #88 on: September 26, 2008, 02:56:06 AM »
Yes! I know that was addressed too someone else---I HOPE--I am too old and don't want too increase my tribe. ;)
I leave with one thought.
Man is flawed and thogh some are somewhat honest and true in their hearts--no one is perfect. In man's attempt too do what man does so well--make war--there are flawed reasons/intents/attempts put forth as reason for more power.
It was true of the North and of the South.
Blessings
 
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why the War was fought
« Reply #89 on: September 26, 2008, 03:26:32 AM »
In the case of the South it was resistance to the northern aggressive power seekers .
Although man may not be perfect he infact has moments as close to perfect as man can come in a cause such as trying to repel northern attacks !
IMHO !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !