Pull down & surplus powders

[stimpylu32]

With the cost of Canister powders going up and up , more loaders are going to this type of powders , that I still have a problem with is good reliable loading data for these powders is hard or next to imposable to get .

Most of the companies that sell these powders will you that you can use X-brand data for this or that , but not one of them will say that this is X-brand powder , they will say It's Close  , well some times close is ok and some times close just don't get it .

Whats your take on these powders ?

I have used some of these powders with out a problem but have been loading quite a few years and know generally what to look for while some of the newer handloaders looking to save a few $$s may not .

stimpy

[victorcharlie]

My guess is they'll learn fast.

Specifically, what powders are you referring to?

[stimpylu32]

VC

Some of the powders are wc860 , wc820 , wc844 , wc846 along with some of the Russian imports that say they are 4895 . As most of us know the surplus Mil 4895 has been gone for a couple of years now .

Most if not all of the pull down powders that come from mil and comm ammo are a blend of more than one powder and not the same as what you would find in your typical canisters on the gun store shelf .

With that in mind , anyone not sure what to look for and expect from these types of powders may be better off to stick with the name brand stuff .

What got me to thinking about this was the thread about containing costs on the componates that we are using , when someone looks at a powder that can be had for say $60 per 8 pounds compaired to $25 per pound , You can say WOW that could save me a ton of money but at what cost ? Your or someone else's safety .

stimpy

[beemanbeme]

Well, it's a buyers decision.  One could council prudence but you know how that goes when folks come in here and want to know what's the max load they can stuff in their xxx? 
If "they" say it's like say IMR4895, it seems like it would be easy enough to proof it against a can of real IMR4895 with a Chrony or by using case measurements. 
I use two different milsups and worked up my loads by velocity and case appearances.  A technique that has worked for 40 years but I am told is now worthless ().

[Lloyd Smale]

hes correct. there powders for dedicated loaders who dont take chances. Ive used them all and have had great luck using them and some powders like 820 for example are my favorites and i would buy them even if they were the same price as production powders. Loading data is there if you search for it but you still NEED a chronograph. Every batch is slightly different. Its not a  big deal if your running midrange loads but if your the type that pushes the limit you can get in trouble. Illl add this. Ive seen big changes from lot to lot even with cansister powders like 110 and 2400 and religiously check my loads on a chrongraph every time i switch to a powder from a differnt lot even with them. Chronographs have gotten cheap enough that everyone can afford them. I think you can get a cheap chrony for around 75 bucks. Hell, two pounds of powder will set you back that much anymore.

[Old Syko]

If you're the kind of person that expects absolutes and guarantees, handloading is definitely not your niche.  These people may want to look into something more benign like checkers.  Lets say for example you're the kind of guy that just went out and bought a new can of 2400 to replace the 20 year old supply you just finished.  The powder has changed, some suppliers of data have changed what they think is right and some have not.  Guess what?  Close has to be good enough or you're back to the checker board.  The first 20 or so years of my reloading experience were centered around surplus and pull down for the simple reason that was all that was available to me.  Back then there were hugh lot to lot variations.  I use the same techniques now as I did then except with the addition some years ago of a chrono and some other now available devices that weren't available to the public back then.  I've never damaged a firearm or suffered bodily injury after thousands and thousands of rounds loaded and fired.

I think you'll find the people who claim to have had problems would have problems even with canister powders due to the their lack of ability and common sense.

The choice of whether or not to use pull down or surplus has to be an individual thing and that choice has to be made based on that individuals knowledge of his own abilities.  For those of us with the right abilities the use of these products can be a cash saver.

[Catfish]

I shoot alot of these powders, but they are not for everyone. To start with you never know how close they are to the burn rate of the refference powder they are. Most I have used were alittle slower, BUT not all so you have to start low and work up. With these powders the burn rate can very alot from lot to lot so every time you get a new lot of powder you need to start low and work up a load all over. For that reason I buy these powders in alrger quabities, no less than 20 lbs. and usually closer to 50 lbs. I load for enough different rounds that I can always find a round the powder works in, most people don`t. Another thing, if you don`t know what to watch for as sighs of high presure, DO NOT buy them. If you shoot aot and they work for you, they can save you alot of money.  well, let you shoot more for the same money.

[PaulS]

I have looked at 8lb kegs of the surplus powders and compared them to the price I pay for my canister powders and the difference is only a couple of dollars. I try never to use powder or bullets without data from the manufacturer. I've been loading for 37 years and plan on doing it for a long time to come. Where would someone find data for these powders (see my signature before answering).

[spinafish]

there are some loads for certain powders listed on this site www.accuratepowder.com/datapowder.htm

[BIG Dog454]

These powders are for experienced reloaders, who know how to read pressure signs, have a cronograph, and don't want to get the aabsolute max velocity out of their guns.

[PaulS]

These powders are for experienced reloaders, who know how to read pressure signs, have a chronograph, and don't want to get the absolute max velocity out of their guns.

I am an experienced reloader, I know how to read signs of overpressure, I have a chronograph or two, and I don't care to get maximum velocity from my loads.
I know that there is no RELIABLE way to know when you have reached a specific pressure by "reading" the signs of pressure.
I know that measuring the velocity of a load says nothing about pressure levels - variations in barrels, and other components can make the velocity vary widely between two guns at the same pressure.
I know it is far too easy to get loads that produce well over maximum pressures without any signs of the pressure levels that are present.
Tested and verified loads are necessary to good reloading practices. I rarely have any signs of excessive pressure even at maximum load levels. I load for accuracy and usually find it before I hit maximum listed loads. If I haven't found it by the time i reach maximum listed loads then I know that powder doesn't work with that particular load. If I didn't have a max listing then I would continue until signs of excessive pressure were present - and that could mean that I was 20000 to 30000 psi over the suggested limits for my guns.
It has been shown too many times that there is no reliable indicator of pressure until you go well beyond SAAMI specs.
I admit that I am a conservative loader - I haven't always been but I have learned my lessons and my limitations.

[AtlLaw]

My thoughts/philosophy exactly Paul.

[BBF]

as above. I think that if you need max pressure to accomplish whatever you want to do, perhaps you need another cartridge.