Author Topic: SCOTUS awards foreign terrorists US Constitutional rights.. (Read 1512 times)

ironglow · « **on:** June 13, 2008, 01:36:25 AM »

Now we will have problems convicting these "ravening wolves" in human clothing. They, along with unscrupulous lawyers (IMO) will tie up our courts in stupidity.
I checked on the vote: Naturally, Scalia, Alito, Thomas & Roberts were on the side of the Constitution and common sense, affirming that our constitution was not
meant to cover foreign terrorists.
Who do you suppose was the "weak wobbler" ? We knew ahead of time that Ginsberg and Souter would go dippy..so I think Anthony Kennedy was the weakling !
...or perhaps john Paul stevens..

In any case; this decision reaffirms the idea that whether you care for McCain or not..he is our only hope to get logic, common sense and constitutional respect
back into the SCOTUS !

Before you say it..Yes, Ron Paul wouild appoint good judges, but he is a dead duck.. for the present time.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #1 on:** June 13, 2008, 02:19:20 AM »

What it appears the court did was force the case(s) before an American jury , We the people now get to be heard and rule .
I can't see a problem , the system is working unless someone wants to control the system for their own gain . I love this country and the freedoms we have , Bush has done many good things but he has made some mistakes also . That is why we have a court system that checkes the other two branches of govt. , sit back and let it work as painful as that is to do sometimes .
And yes McCain seems to be the best choice of the choices given !

kevthebassman · « **Reply #2 on:** June 13, 2008, 02:22:36 AM »

I think holding people without even allowing them to have a day in court was a foolish thing to do to begin with. Actually, the first foolish thing that they did was even take prisoners.... but they quickly topped that foolishness with other foolishness. Seems to be a common thread with the Bush administration.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #3 on:** June 13, 2008, 06:41:53 AM »

These are new times and new rules have to be developed. I don't think that terrorist that have a reasonably provable link to terrorist activity should be accorded the same consideration of a US citizen but what are they? They're not enemy soldiers in a classical sense. And what about the little fishes that happen to have a turban on and be in the wrong place at the wrong time? How are they to be treated.
I also think that the CIA or the Home Land Security or whoever does go fishing with a very wide net but once they have their haul, they should do something other than warehouse their catch. But I also don't like the idea of a bunch of anti-American lawyers getting rich and clogging up the courts with frivolous cases trying to spring Aubugolly or suing us because we're feeding Aubu potatoes instead of rice.

ironglow · « **Reply #4 on:** June 13, 2008, 10:36:12 AM »

If the case were only a few who were caught in this country..I could see better, the direction the court is taking. Someday however, we could be facing a situation
such as WW2, where we have thousands of prisoners on hand and more coming each day. Those prisoners were held "for the duration" and their crimes were
considerably less than the evil terrorists we now face. When captured, they were dressed as honorable soldiers, in military uniform. I can't understand what has happened to the old Geneva convention; used to be when a combatant was caught in battle without a regulare uniform, they had little rights of any kind

As a youngster, I recall seeing some of those "PWs" at work at a local canning factory. The Geneva convention said they could work on foodstuffs, but not on
things for the war effort. Curiously, years later while serving in Germany, I met some of those former PWs and most of them, other than being seperated from loved
ones, liked their stay in the U.S. or Canada.
I suppose it was much better than the frozen steppes of the Soviet Union or the burning sands of N. Africa ..

It is difficult to feature why a foreign enemy, not a soldier, caught in an attempt to murder American troops, now held in a foriegn country (to us and him)..should be brought to
the states and accorded all the constitutional guarantees of a US citizen living here. Surely, US citizens committing a crime in a foreign country are not accorded full rights and
guarantees of theUS Constitution
It sure seems as if the liberal members of the court are bending over backwards in an effort to cripple our ability to prosecute a war against terrorism.

Again; if we do get involved in a great war as in WW2, our court system will be choked to death. look how the Texas justice system is being hammered by a couple
hundred rounded up in that cult raid of a few weeks ago.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #5 on:** June 13, 2008, 06:31:10 PM »

My understanding is that if you were a enemy effective w/o a uniform, you were a spy and had very few if any rights and usually a very short lifespan.

One of the problems is many of these "terrorist" were legally in this country to begin with on student visas and merely overstayed their time, hoping to disappear. At any given time, we have hundreds of thousands of folks of all races living on expired student visas. I think this is something that needs to be tightened up acrost the board. Also there were many "arranged" marriages where the bride was paid so Aubugolly could stay in the country. You take some wacked-out druggie, she'd do anything for a hand full of rock.

The problem that confronts us now is we are not at war with a country as such. We are at war with a "hate Western Civilization" idealogy that transcends borders. Forget the BS about Godless, sub-human moozlims, I don't know if the new world order is being redrawn along religious or colour lines? With our great experiments of equality and melting pots and shared information, there are so many hues and shadings it hard to tell at this time. I'm glad I live tucked away up the holler in Two mile.

ironglow · « **Reply #6 on:** June 13, 2008, 06:51:15 PM »

Beeman;
Yes; things could get much worse before they get better.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #7 on:** June 14, 2008, 04:01:39 AM »

As I said, many of the ways we do things and many of the ways we do business and interact have to be re-thought. There is a new world order coming. No doubt about it. People are having to do the best they can navigating uncharted waters and it is always easy to find fault on monday morning.
Just like the folks bitchin' about walking around the airport barefooted would also be the first in line at the lawyers office to sue if an "incident" occurred.

Rogue Ram · « **Reply #8 on:** June 14, 2008, 09:13:05 AM »

"I think holding people without even allowing them to have a day in court was a foolish thing to do to begin with. Actually, the first foolish thing that they did was even take prisoners.... but they quickly topped that foolishness with other foolishness. Seems to be a common thread with the Bush administration."

Completely agree. Not one of them has told us where OBL is so why keep them in the first place. Just yesterday HUNDREDS of Taliban and others broke out of an Afghan prison.....google the news. This is one big mess created by us, playing by rules when the other side doesn't.

RR

beemanbeme · « **Reply #9 on:** June 14, 2008, 01:08:21 PM »

I don't quite see how 9-11 was created by us and, of course, some of you just can't pass up a chance to bash Bush. As I said, you monday morning quarterbacks have never lost a game. Right. Why don't you give us a quick fix.

ironglow · « **Reply #10 on:** June 15, 2008, 02:27:08 AM »

Beeman;
Thank you for a bit of clarity...folks are bound to play politics with the problem. This is not a politics problem, other than being a problem for 2 out of 3
branches of govt.
SCOTUS has just jabbed a sharp stick in the eye of congress and the administration..keep in mind, it was not the whole SCOTUS..not even the justices who
are recognized as the finest Constitutional brains in the court !
SCOTUS has just given full Constitutional protection to the worst terrorist organizations in the world ! The best Constitutional minds in the country say that the US Constitution is meant for the US (geographically) and US citizens period.
SCOTUS has given full habeus corpus rights to these international terrorists because "they were not attacking US soil or involved in an internal insurrection".
Therefore, SCOTUS has given international terrorists "rights" which these same 5 justices would deny US citizens accused of the two crimes of attack on US soil or
internal insurrection !
If anyone is smacking their lips over what they percieve as a "Bush defeat"..they must be a bit daft ! This was aclear overstepping of Constitutional boundaries and
a slap in the face to the congress, the executive and the American people..and especially the troops engaged in the field !
It is truly "up in the air" as to whether a US Marine or soldier must read an enemy captive his "Miranda rights" or immediately furnish him an attorney..(this from
a Constitutional scholar on Fox just this morning).
Will our combat troops remain willing to serve under such restrictions ? Restrictions their enemies laugh at..and will utilize..

Keep in mind, many of the "alleged" terrorists released on technicalities have..been recaptured or killed on their return to the battlefield..some , like one the other day
in Iraq..who blew himself up, taking dozens of innocents with his evil, useless hide !

BBF · « **Reply #11 on:** June 15, 2008, 11:20:15 AM »

Question: What is the difference between a terrorist and a Hero?
Answer: None! It depends on whose side you are on.

You can substitute " Hero" with Freedom Fighter or martyr, same answer

ironglow · « **Reply #12 on:** June 15, 2008, 02:04:00 PM »

delete

billy_56081 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 15, 2008, 02:24:19 PM »

Hopefully they will be put deep in the hold of a ship, and the poor ship sinks,"accidentally".

beemanbeme · « **Reply #14 on:** June 15, 2008, 05:19:14 PM »

No, TM, what seems to us totally absurd has a bad way of happening. As I read IG and your post, I envisioned some poor GI, with a group of prisoners, saying: "you have the right to remain silent....." while some sleazeball in a polyester suit handed out business cards.

IMO, the question is exactly what are those people? Who are those people. They are not POW's; they are not spies. Many of them are students and visitors with expired visas or illegal aliens. Some of them have totally false ID. Some of them have no ID. New times, new rules.

Too sad that at a critical time in America's history, people can only see an opportunity to make some political hay.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** June 16, 2008, 01:27:21 AM »

After reading the post and trying to understand the views . I keep going bact to the idea that in effect the court has given WE THE PEOPLE access to punish these people if they are guilty of a crime . They are no longer protected from us , we will see them in court . I pray those that are on the jury have the wisdom and guts to do THE RIGHT THING !
And the GOVT. has the right people on the job so we don't see another OJ screw up !

ironglow · « **Reply #16 on:** June 16, 2008, 04:43:30 AM »

Shootall;
Many of them won't get to court ! With habeus corpus "rights", many will walk by the efforts of slick lawyers..then they will run (not walk) to the nearest
terrorist recruiting center...and perhaps be in on another 9/11...

beemanbeme · « **Reply #17 on:** June 16, 2008, 06:20:26 AM »

Before WW2, Hitler would hold "rallies" and whip the people into a frenzy and they would go running thru the streets and any man would have his trousers pulled down. If he had the misfortune to be circumsized, it was considered to be "defacto" proof that he was a Jew and he was beaten. Often to death. Those people were Christians. Yeah, I know, they weren't YOUR kind of Christians.

Some of our homegrown zealots would have us do the same with any hapless person wearing a turbin. We've seen it in this very forum. Do we deport ALL the Godless, sub-human moozlims? What about those that have lived in this country for several generations? Get rid of them too, huh. What about the Godless, sub-human Buddist? And Shintos? They got to go, right? Then we come to any of those pesky Indians that have clung to their native beliefs. They were here first so where can we send them?

Of course, before we can start shipping any of these folks out, we've got to have a NATIONAL form of ID. State level won't cut it; can't trust those state-level people. Oh, that's right some gov'ment type --don't forget we're here to help you-- has already thought of that. But since some junior grade hacker with a puter and a printer could probably replicate a NATIONAL ID card in a couple of nano seconds, they'll probably need to go with computer chips imbedded in your head. Of course it's for your own good. No more walking around the airport barefooted. Just have some non-english speaking TSA agent scan your head and you're thru. Unless they're having a bad hair day and feel like jerking somebody around.

9/11 was a catastrophic event. The worst man-made event in most of modern American's memory and so everybody is looking under the bed at night for terrorist. They are screaming, "secure our borders". They are screaming, as they have been raised, for the gov'ment to look after them.

Sad truth is that the gov'ment can't possibly secure our borders nor can they prevent another 9/11. So you're pretty much on your own. Wow, you have to assume some responsibility for yourself. Of reassurance however, with 300 million people in the USA, the odds of there being a terrorist under your bed is pretty slim and if you see a swarthy complexed person wearing a bulky overcoat in July, avoid him and you'll probably be okay. Of course, don't walk the streets of our Nation's Capital after dark. To quote Marion Barry, two times mayor and convicted druggie, " 'cept for the killin's, this ain't no bad town."

For the DURATION of WW2, there were more American servicemen killed EACH DAY than died in 9/11.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** June 16, 2008, 07:28:51 AM »

IRONGLOW, you might be correct which is a shame since the elected officals who's job it is to know the law DIDN"T ! and waited so long to act !
Read the laws of this country - All men ( not American men ) !
To tell ya the truth I hate to see them go free but we live under laws and have to deal with it sometimes ! Its what makes us Great but also subject to attack !

beemanbeme · « **Reply #19 on:** June 17, 2008, 03:28:41 AM »

"slick lawyers". If I had to go to court, I'd want one that was so smooth Teflon wouldn't stick to him.

"gang of five" IG, you sure jumped on that. Why don't you teach your little buddy to say that when you give him a cracker? After you teach him to say, "Ze plane, Boss, ze plane."

ironglow · « **Reply #20 on:** June 17, 2008, 04:07:28 AM »

Beeman;

?

BBF · « **Reply #21 on:** June 17, 2008, 07:58:38 AM »

why exactly can't the Border be secured? If a double fence can't do it I suggest a deep ditch in between the fence. For the noncriminal alien, other then the fact they shouldn't be here in the first place, the big attraction is available work. E- Verify should become mandatory. That alone would slow done the illegal border crossing to a small trickle, I presume it would be mostly drug smugglers.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #22 on:** June 17, 2008, 09:00:47 AM »

45-70, Big piece of water on each side. Hard to build fences. Harder still to dig ditches. Even as we speak, there is a flood of folks coming in from the Caribbean into NY with false birth certs, false welfare cards, false housing certs AND an infra structure to receive them and, of course, make money.
War and famine refugees of every race and hue from all over with "passports of convenience" issued by every country on the globe. When you airlift 2000 "victims from a country torn by civil war, how do your screen them to insure they are all "victims'? Often they have only the clothes on their backs. WW2 and the draft dodgers of the 60's lifted the manufacturing of false ID to a fine art.
And never forget, with 300 million folks of our own, we probably have a few home grown tin hat types of our own. You know, their welfare check was late, or they don't like blacks, or they don't like whites, or they don't like people that eat meat, or they don't like people that don't like People that don't like people etc, etc, etc. you've read the post just in this room. Some of our own folks aren't what you'd call plumb and flush.

IG, just a wee tug at your leg. Don't get too excited or I'll tell God when he stops by tonight.

ironglow · « **Reply #23 on:** June 17, 2008, 11:58:59 PM »

Beeman;
No tug at me; none of your categories fit...

BTW: If God stops by to see you tonight, you ought to be sure of which "god" it is ! ...( 2Cor 11:14 )...LOL

Just tugging at your leg..but if you feel that tug in your sleep, it's not me..better hang fast to your bedframe !

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #24 on:** June 18, 2008, 01:18:55 AM »

If there were no market for cars , cheap junk , drugs or people . IE. profit to be made they would not come here !
close the market and the borders are closed !

BBF · « **Reply #25 on:** June 18, 2008, 05:43:03 AM »

beeman: I was focused on your southern border. Yes, the illegals are coming from pretty much all directions. Mexico is still the biggest import country of drugs and people. Do you feel E-Verify is ineffective?

ms · « **Reply #26 on:** June 18, 2008, 01:04:14 PM »

I say lets give them the same rights that they would if we were in there country.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #27 on:** June 18, 2008, 01:43:11 PM »

When we talk about "secure our borders" are we talking about making us safe from terrorist? (ain't gonna happen) or are we talking about keeping out Mexican labourers so that picking lettuce will suddenly pay $25.00hr with dental and medical bennies and, of course, union membership so's you won't have to work very hard for that $25.00hr.

When you turn back 10 illegals at either border, the chances of one of them having part of a bindery nuclear bomb is too remote to consider. When the terrorist comes here, it will be with impeccable credentials. And they will have been used and proofed thru several countries before ever coming here. Don't expect a bearded Abugolly to show up at JFK in July with a brand new Irish Passport wearing a bulky overcoat and a carrying ticking suitcase.

Once again, we have enough home grown kooks with grievances, real and imagined, to worry about. Just stay away from guys with overcoats on in July. They're either Godless musslums fixin' to blow your butt off or they're Godless deviants trying to sneak into the Ladies room. Bad business either way. That's why I don't go out of the hollar much.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #28 on:** June 19, 2008, 03:34:27 AM »

The court gave them the right to be heard , maybe that's where there Rights will be discussed ?

DakotaElkSlayer · « **Reply #29 on:** June 19, 2008, 05:46:28 PM »

I see, and hear on tv, that many people are "troubled" with the Supreme Court ruling... Forget the fact that some may be innocent of any wrongdoing since we all now how great our intelligence agencies have been. My question is, what if the court decided that accused terrorists housed on foreign soil have no rights?? If that was the case, in the future, could political enemies be accused of terrorism and disappear??? Sorry guys, but the whole "no legal rights" sounds too much like Joe's Soviet Union...

Jim