velocity for whitetails

[Lloyd Smale]

I wont argue that a bigger rifle like an 06 is more powerfull then a 243 but i have to say that some of the most spectacular kills ive seen on deer were from .24 and .25 caliber guns. Only problem is like you said if you do make a marginal hit the blood trail is minimal. As to the cast vs jackted 44 loads ive shot many animals with both and a good cast bullet with a good sized  metplat will surpise you on the damage it will do. Wound cavitys are just as big in most cases. What you have to keep in mind is that with a cast bullet the wound channel may not be a wide but it will allways be longer. Hydrostatic shock with a handgun with any bullet is minimal. Now if your shooting a 454 with a 250 jhp at 2000 fps you might see some shock effect but ive yet to see a deer really have the snot knocked out of it with any 44 mag load. they usually react to being shot by just running off about 50 yards and dieing. The only differnce between using cast and jacketed on a deer is if you do make a marginal shot you will get a better blood trail sometimes. I say sometimes because a good jackted bullet will usually penetrate enough on whitetail to give complete penetration also. What a cast bullet will do and i dont recomend a inexperienced handguner to do this, is they allow you to take a shot on an animal that doesnt present a perfect broad side shot. If i can get an angle on a shot that lines up with the vitals at about any angle i know i will get enough penetration to reach the vitals. As to game bigger the a whitetail like a bigger black bear or a boar i wouldnt fool with jacketed bullets. Ive personaly witnessed jacket handgun bullet fail to penetrate on them. One hog i watch being shot was shot with a 41 mag using 170 grain siearrs was shot behind the shoulder twice and the bullets were recovered under the skin and only penetrated about 3 inches. The pig was put down with another 41 mag using 230 cast and that bullet went in the but of the pig while running away and came out the chest. The pig folded on the spot. to give you sort of an idea of how little shocking power a handgun has, we recently shot some game at the buddys ranch. We were usiing 500 linebaughs loaded with hand casted soft nose and hollow pointed cast bullets. the loads were pushing them at about 1200 fps. We killed two 4 horned sheep and one of them took 3 hits and the other 4 hits to put down. the first one i shot and the first shot i took was a perfect shoulder shot at about 25 yards and the sheep just looked at me and kept walking. That bullet didnt penetrate enough to reach the vitals but stayed in the animal and theroreticaly transfered a bunch of energy to that animal. It didnt seen to even twitch when shot. My buddy put another one in it that failed to penetrate and i finaly put on in its head that dropped it. We had simular results on the other 4 horned. Then i shot a 800 lb buffalo with the same load and we chased it around for about 2 hours following the blood trail and put 3 more slugs in it and it kept going until Dave the owner of the ranch put a hard cast 475 into its shoulder and dropped it. Taught me a lesson that day and you wont ever see me again using anything but a hard cast bullet in any handgun for hunting.

[Cottonwood]

Well said Lloyd, I've had similar experience using hard cast myself and would pretty much repeat what you have said. 

[Lawful Larry]

45454, a totally off topic post. Originally, this was about handgun velocity for deer?

You must have the same problem with your eyes that I do SB, it is called old age!!!   I counted quite a few references to velocity in his posts.  Now if ya think he is getting a little long winded, go on to the next post and leave the attitude at your computer please. 

Now I could also mention that your post didn't contain any words about the original subject at hand, but I am more of a gentlman.     

[Redhawk1]

45454, a totally off topic post. Originally, this was about handgun velocity for deer?

You must have the same problem with your eyes that I do SB, it is called old age!!!   I counted quite a few references to velocity in his posts.  Now if ya think he is getting a little long winded, go on to the next post and leave the attitude at your computer please. 

Now I could also mention that your post didn't contain any words about the original subject at hand, but I am more of a gentlman.     

Sounds like you made this post out of spite. 

[Mikey]

Fellas - it is way too early in the morning for any animosity, or as they say on South Park, 'Animosita', so let's please stick to topic.  This is an informative subject and although I am one of the worst offenders when it comes to addressing a topic straight on (it's not unlike me to swing into it from way out somewhere now, is it) I would 'ppreciate it if we keep the focus in sight. 

Thank ya, thank ya all.  'Sometimes ramblin' but not always' - Mikey.

[Redhawk1]

Like I said, For handgun range, in the 900 to 1000 fps range would work.

[safetysheriff]

if you have any concern at all that your deer, elk, moose, (whatever) will run a ways and wind up with someone else's tag on it, then bring:   a big enough caliber,  with heavy-enough lead,  of proper construction and Velocity to go Through the vitals, from the worse angle you may have to shoot,  while striving to place the bullet properly !    leave any ONE of those out of the equation and somebody else may get to tag your game !    it happens a lot.       

Additionally:    an exit wound usually bleeds more than an entrance wound; and handguns need that kind of help, generally.

i really believe those things to be true.

ss'   

[Lawful Larry]

I gotta admit that I like big bullets that go fast in my handguns.  That's why I shoot a .45 Colt.  Don't like the .454 because it hurts my shooting glove too much.   

And Redhawk, if'n you could hand carry a cannon in the woods you would.   

[Redhawk1]

I gotta admit that I like big bullets that go fast in my handguns.  That's why I shoot a .45 Colt.  Don't like the .454 because it hurts my shooting glove too much.   

And Redhawk, if'n you could hand carry a cannon in the woods you would.   

Yea I would, but that's just me, I know what will work, but I always want more. 

That is why I use the 460 Mag, 500 Mag, 510 GNR, 454 Casull, 480 Ruger and 45-70 as my handguns of choice for hunting. .  Big holes, lots of velocity = meat in the freezer and possibly another mount on the wall of fame. 

[Glanceblamm]

My experince with the handgun Deer is very light as I have only taken four with a total of five shots fired. I am doing well on the whole  for the time that hand guns have been legal in the regular season here in IL though.
I think that the 900 to 1,000fps range is good for these velocitys but have only taken these deer from anywhere from 30 to 53yds which could be considered good handgun range.

To move on out to 100yds with these loads and my fixed sights would just not be practical as I am looking at POI and want it to be within 4" of POA and am not achieving this with my .45  Alternates would be to go with a 300gr bullet which will do This or I could go with that Dave Clements front post with the two gold bars on the face of it that can be seen in the (Freedom Arms Handgun Forum) with the post being (Nice Sight Upgrade) by Lloyd Small.
I have a newer SBH in the .44mag for this chore but have not used it for the late season yet. I took it for the regular season last year sucessfully in the regular season but only had it loaded up to around 1,100fps.
This was the first gun that I started working with this spring as I wanted to warm things up a bit and watch for the pressure signs. I took it all the way up to a John Taffin published load of 1,515 fps with the 240gr XTP and it did well with brass that easily ejected with no flattening of the primers. Accuracy was good also but I have not shot it past the 30yd range yet.

My bottom line is that while I consider 1,515fps to be excessive for those deer, I would not hesitate to go with 1,300 to 1,500fps with my guide lines being where the bullet will strike at 50, 75, and 100yds.
I think that 1,200 to 1,250 should achieve that 4" POA/POI or closer tragectory out to an honest 100yds.

[Mohawk]

 I'm still waiting for the 500 S&W to be bottle necked down to .17 caliber with a Corbon DPX kicking along at 5,500 fps to put down a whitetail!! Good thread, though and deserved unburying. Read alot of good opinions and it is probably one topic that will never be settled. For hogs, elk, and such thicker game I can understand how the debate will widen since the target structure is much different, but whitetail are not that hard to put down given the vitals (Chest Cavity, not neck) is cross-sectioned by any bullet penetrating enough to take out both lungs. Honestly, from the . 38 158gr RNL and the .357 Mag 158gr SJHP, and even the .243 SP, I can't tell much of a difference in affect. They all ran about 40-50yds and died. I've never been concerned about having to have a round that puts them down in their tracks. If I can't track a deer, even with no blood trail, 50 yards then I have no business hunting. How long have whitetails been hunted(over 200yrs).....how long have expanding handgun bullets been around(about 45yrs).....that should give you some insight. Most have been black powder, low pressure loads. My opinion, put me on my bow blinds with a .45 Colt and the Remington 225gr SWC factory (900+/-fps) and I will bring home venison. It's amazing what bullet/ammunition manufacturers want people to believe about handguns! My last two deer this year were taken with a S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman .357 using standard Remington 158gr Semi-jacketed-hollowpoints. The gun is 53yrs old and the bullet style about 40+yrs old and the end result is meat in the freezer X 2. This was my old service/duty load and it works just fine, though I carried mine in a Model 19. Good huntin' fellas, just my thoughts!!!!