velocity for whitetails

[jaybird]

I have been working on some loads for my sbh with hardcast 240 swc's. I am hoping to develop a load to hunt whitetails with this fall. What velocity should I be looking at for hunting loads?

Thanks,
Jim

[Catfish]

I would say what ever you shoot the best  as long as it`s over 800 fps. More velosity will get you more range though. My favorite deer load is the 240 gr. Sierra HP at 1240 fps. from a 7 3/4 in Ruber Super Black Hawk.

[Redhawk1]

For handgun range, in the 900 to 1000 fps range would work.

[warrior1]

for cast i'd say loads just below top end with blue dot and imr 4227 should do nicely. dan

[S.B.]

I agree with Redhawk1 on this but,  would extend the velocity to 1200 fps?

[Redhawk1]

I agree with Redhawk1 on this but,  would extend the velocity to 1200 fps?

I am with you on the 1200 fps range, I usually go a little higher to about 1350 to 1450 fps in my 500 mag and higher in my 460 Mag.

[jhalcott]

jay, with a muzzle velocity of 900 fps you CAN kill a white tasil deer using 240's. You can NOT kill them any deader shooting the bullet 1300 fps, BUT you might be able to do it some what farther away! How sensitive are you to recoil ? How far away can you hit an 8" paper plate EVERY TIME?. If you decide on the fastest loads for hunting, use a much milder load for practice. This will cut down on the flinches.  good luck!

[hoggunner]

heres a great little site that hornady post on their site. I would not bet my life on it but it should give you an idea of what you need

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/hits_calculator.php

[Lone Star]

For handgun range, in the 900 to 1000 fps range would work.

Not for deer it won't!  A 240-grain .44 bullet at a 900 fps impact velocity is only good for small game weighing less than 50 lbs.


That is, if you believe the Hornady "HITS" theory, which is yet another almost useless attempt to somehow quantify killing power.  Dozens of "experts" have tried this with dozens of "formulas", and it is fun to use a calculator to see the result.  But in the real world such mental games are almost worthless.  What works works, regardless of whatever some arbirtary mathamatical formula suggests.  Real life is too full of random variables for math to solve such an intangible action as death.




.

[Lone Star]

Duplicate post.

[Redhawk1]

For handgun range, in the 900 to 1000 fps range would work.

Not for deer it won't!  A 240-grain .44 bullet at a 900 fps impact velocity is only good for small game weighing less than 50 lbs.
.

OK My bad..... Never mind.... I did not read your follow up statement....

[GRIMJIM]

I think he was being sarcastic. He negated the statement with the next paragraph.

[dpe.ahoy]

I believe Hornady is basing that on their bullets expanding to work effectively, not on cast bullets.  Interesting programe though.  I do use alot of their product as well.  Have had good results on them.  I have used the 240 in the 44 mag and 300 in hot 45 colt loads with mulies in the freezer.  DP.

[Lawful Larry]

For handgun range, in the 900 to 1000 fps range would work.

Not for deer it won't!  A 240-grain .44 bullet at a 900 fps impact velocity is only good for small game weighing less than 50 lbs.


That is, if you believe the Hornady "HITS" theory, which is yet another almost useless attempt to somehow quantify killing power.  Dozens of "experts" have tried this with dozens of "formulas", and it is fun to use a calculator to see the result.  But in the real world such mental games are almost worthless.  What works works, regardless of whatever some arbirtary mathamatical formula suggests.  Real life is too full of random variables for math to solve such an intangible action as death.

I am really perplexed as to how our forefathers gathered game using black powder rounds in the .44-40 and .45 Colt.  Just these two rounds killed more deer, mule deer and yes elk then you can realize!!!  Not to mention all the .32, .36, and .45 cal. muzzleloaders that also took the same above mentioned game.  And they all were traveling at low velocities by today standards.  Amazing. 

I think we end up thinking it has to be very big and go very fast before we can kill game.   

[SharonAnne]

don't you folks READ?? according to the know everything magazine writers, you NEED a belted/non-belted, super high velocity, large caliber, super heavy/light bullet traveling at slightly higher than Mach 6 to kill bunny wabbits.

Funny thing though. When I talked to an African PH about booking a hunt with him, he asked what I would be shooting. I said ".30-06".
His reply was " Yah, der Shpringfeld, good cartridge".  Here was a Professional Hunter of African game, who was of the opinion the .30-06 was plenty of gun for plains game. However, if you listen to the gun scribes in the latest edition of Death and Destruction Monthly, the .30-06 is barely adequate for squirrels.

I will put my $$ (and life) with those who actually do it for a living. Not some gun shop commando who reads/writes about the latest thing some gun or ammo company has sent to him.

[Redhawk1]

Even though the big and slow bullets work well, I still prefer the big and fast one also. Some of us just like big bore handguns. 

[Lloyd Smale]

correct answer

For handgun range, in the 900 to 1000 fps range would work.

[45454]

For handgun range, in the 900 to 1000 fps range would work.

Not for deer it won't!  A 240-grain .44 bullet at a 900 fps impact velocity is only good for small game weighing less than 50 lbs.


That is, if you believe the Hornady "HITS" theory, which is yet another almost useless attempt to somehow quantify killing power.  Dozens of "experts" have tried this with dozens of "formulas", and it is fun to use a calculator to see the result.  But in the real world such mental games are almost worthless.  What works works, regardless of whatever some arbirtary mathamatical formula suggests.  Real life is too full of random variables for math to solve such an intangible action as death.

I am really perplexed as to how our forefathers gathered game using black powder rounds in the .44-40 and .45 Colt.  Just these two rounds killed more deer, mule deer and yes elk then you can realize!!!  Not to mention all the .32, .36, and .45 cal. muzzleloaders that also took the same above mentioned game.  And they all were traveling at low velocities by today standards.  Amazing. 

I think we end up thinking it has to be very big and go very fast before we can kill game.   

Hi Larry,
I can't agree with you more.
What you've said,I sorta covered it in another thread.
Yes, those critters keeps getting harder and harder to kill.
When I went to the 45-70,less than 5 years ago,someone on a Yahoo Group,thought the 45-70 would be iffy at best for bear !
But those 300gr smokeless factory rounds did hurt.
I've since switched to BP,and the 405gr loads.Much more pleasant to shoot, and full power.A full 70gr by volume.
As I have a Springfield 1884 Trapdoor,I have to make sure,I can use the ammo in either rifle.The other is an NEF Handirifle.
The 500gr,oughta be a hoot to shoot.
My Ruger loads are not wimpy by any means.They are powerful enough to take on wild pig,bear,elk and deer.(45 Colt)
The bullet weights are from 255gr to 270gr SAA's.All are cast.No magnum velocities here.
Yes,I do agree with the 900-1000 FPS, with a cast bullets has taken a lot of deer.
Obviously this poster don't know what a good cast bullet can do.
I don't want to start a flame war,but,working within the handgunner's limits,accurately placed,can bring a deer down.
A 44 cast bullet in the 240gr range (44mag),1000 FPS can do the job.
So if a 240gr going at 900-1000 FPS can't kill a deer within limits,then how can an arrow going substanionally less in FPS,kill a deer ?
Bad placement shot ?
The 44 mags on the other hand,can take down almost anything.Mine are in the 240grHP jacketed,going much faster,than factory.
I won't post any of the powder,as there are some fairly weak 44 mags.The Ruger is a SS RedHawk.
From here,go up to the Speer 270gr jacketed,then finally, the 320gr JDJ's.
I will say Larry,I still prefer my BP loads in my rifles.As,I was going to buy another 30-06.I asked myself on this.Why ? Why not go back, and use what has been proven ? The 45-70 kept nagging at me.
The more I looked and read,the better I liked it.
So,one day went down to the gunshop.Ordered an NEF Handirifle,synthetic stock.
Got it out of hock (10 day waiting period), and haven't looked back.
My only regret is not going hunting more often.Trying to find a hunting partner is somewhat difficult in the "Land of Fruits and Nuts".
Hope to resolve this shortly.
Redhawk1,yep,I'm one of those too.
You guys have a good week.

[S.B.]

45454, a totally off topic post. Originally, this was about handgun velocity for deer?

[30WCF]

I normally hunt with either 44 Mag or 480. My 44 mag loads run right at 1300fps with 270 grain gold dots and the 480's run around 1360fps with 325 grain gold dots and XTP mags.

[Mikey]

45454:  That was quite a 'ramble' you had going on there and I'm sorry to hear you're having a hard time finding a huntin' buddy out where ya are but if we could stick to topic I'd 'ppreciate it.  Thanks.  Mikey.

[Turk]

I personally recommend to push your bullet at the fastest possible MV that you can do safely and accurately.  My goal is to put the whitetail down in one shot.  Remember 1250 fps MV is not that at 50 yards more horse power extends your range.  I want one hole in and one hole out and 44 Mag. will do that with any bullet you use.  If you're a reload (you should be) H-110 is probably one of best choices of powder.

Turk

[BBF]

this might be "old hat" to most of you but let us compare apples with apples. In this case it is hard cast bullets vs jacketed bullet.

Hard cast bullets penetrate and do not expand. Jacketed bullets do both depending on caliber and  V. Higher V's more expansion less penetration.

Cast bullets with a large meplat do more damage then a RN or Spitzer type everything else being equal.

 As far as how many fps. Dunno. haven't done it but a 44. cal bullet shouldn't require a lot of V.

Someone speculated on how old timers did it with verious old or obselete cartridges.. Depending on hard cast or paper patch bulets which will expand or at least deform bullet placement and willingness to track I would say they did well enough.

[buck460XVR]

I personally recommend to push your bullet at the fastest possible MV that you can do safely and accurately. 

Turks correct.......all the speed and power in the world don't mean squat if you can't control it and hit where you need to. Hittin' a deer in the boiler room at 900 fps will kill the animal just as fast as sumpthin' goin' 1900 fps. I was fortunate enough one year to harvest two bucks from the same tree stand. One with my bow, the other with the ol' M1917. They both were standing/walking in the same approximate spot when shot thru the heart. The one shot with the arrow traveling a coupla hundred FPS walked 40 yards and fell over within sight. The one shot with the 180 grainer doing a coupla thousand FPS ran off about 70 yards before it ran into a tree. So much for speed kills. Both left a blood trail a blind man could follow.

Many here put so much on speed/bullet weight and bang flops....when shooting skills and woodsmanship are really the key.

[jhalcott]

  I've killed deer that went about 70/80 yards and then were shot /shot at by some guy who claimed my deer. These types will shoot the deer UNDER your tree stand after your first shot. They get out one or 2 days a year at most. I believe this is the reason many hunters want the bang ,flop gun than a bang and watch it run gun. Plus the hunting shows pimping the latest HE MAN magnum makes them think a BIG gun is needed to kill a deer.  Even the archery guys are subjected to this  "our's is fastest" crap.

[TEXXAS]

On a South TEXAS dear lease we keep a log of all game shot. For the last 12 years a avj of 48 deer a year have hung from the game pole. Lots of turkey, hogs, fox, bobcat, and exotic game also. Over the years some things become known as fact.

On killing.

1 - Shot placement is the single most important thing.

2 - Penetration is the 2ed most important.

3 - Everything else is next and does not affect the chances of getting your deer, much.

On killing faster.

1 - Bigger puts them down sooner than smaller.

2 - Faster puts them down quicker than slower.

3 - Bigger and faster puts the down the fastest.

4 - Small and slow will work every time if you do your part.

                                                                                 TEXXAS

[Redhawk1]

On a South TEXAS dear lease we keep a log of all game shot. For the last 12 years a avj of 48 deer a year have hung from the game pole. Lots of turkey, hogs, fox, bobcat, and exotic game also. Over the years some things become known as fact.

On killing.

1 - Shot placement is the single most important thing.

2 - Penetration is the 2ed most important.

3 - Everything else is next and does not affect the chances of getting your deer, much.

On killing faster.

1 - Bigger puts them down sooner than smaller.

2 - Faster puts them down quicker than slower.

3 - Bigger and faster puts the down the fastest.

4 - Small and slow will work every time if you do your part.

                                                                                 TEXXAS

Sounds good to me...

[no guns here]

It all depends on situation right?  I've head shot deer with a .223 for pest control and I know that an accurate shot will kill them if I put it in the boiler room too.  But I don't hunt with one.  I've smoked a pig or two with a .45-70, some ran, some didn't.  I shot a reh buck (roe deer) here in Germany with a .308, it weighed about 40 lbs.  I know it seems overkill...  anyway, if I'm somewhere that I can afford to track or wait 30 minutes, I'll take a smaller caliber sometimes.  My 6mm rem kills deer dead but... sometimes they seem to run a little farther than with a .30-'06 even with a good shot.  Here in Europe you want them to bang-flop.  If Hanz and Franz Greeny are walking through the woods and your wounded deer/pig runs by then they'll tell the government and you might get investigated for animal cruelty.  If it bang-flops, problem solved.  If your pig/deer runs and crosses a road and causes an accident you are responsible.  Bang-flops solve the problem.  If it runs to another piece of land, then it belongs to that guy and you may have to pay him for it.  Bang-flops solve the problem.  The .308 is pretty universal here.  Many shoot bigger rounds like 9.3x62, .30-'06, 8mm and .45-70 even for little roe deer.  Will a cast .44 kill them at 900fps, sure, but I would rather have a little more power than that.  I still buy into the argument that "hydrostatic shock" (or whatever you want to call it) affects the nervous system of the animal.  At that speed with no expansion, unless you hit bone your bullet is acting more like a small arrow head and just cutting a path through.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not a magnum freak at all.  I just like to take out a shoulder when I hunt with handguns.  Hopefully I'll get to do some of that this fall on leave.

ngh

[Lloyd Smale]

I know John linebaugh has taken deer and antelope at 200 yards with 45 colts with 900 fps 250 grain loads. Ive dumped a few at out to 75 which is about my self impossed limit. Handguns do not kill like rilfes do and hydrostatic shock is not a concern. Penetration is what your looking for. Ive killed qiote a few deer pigs and bear with loads in 44s and 45s that dont run over a 1000 and ive yet to loose one. If you feel the need for more power go for it but dont think that its going to make the differnce in a dead animal or a wounded one. Shot placement is what determines that. Ive also killed deer with full power 500 linebaughs but would be the last one to tell you its necessary to use that much power on deer. Its no differnt then someone using a 300 mag to deer hunt with. If you want to, go for it but dont tell me that its needed. The isnt a deer on this planet that will walk away from a lung shot with a 243

[no guns here]

How right you are... a 6mm will drop a deer with a lung shot.  Just sometimes it seems they take a little longer to drop than with a larger, more energetic bullet.   Sometimes I need that deer or hog to drop very quickly so I hedge my bet by using a larger bullet.  In my mind I can only compare a big slow cast bullet to an arrow.  It busts a .429 hole completely through the animal.  It breaks anything in the way and causes the animal to bleed out rather like an arrow.   Effective, quite so might I add, but effective in a different way than a mushrooming bullet at 2700 fps.  I would not hesitate to shoot pretty much any deer sized animal with a hard cast .44 at 900 fps on my own land or similar situation.  On public land or small leases where a short run might cause large issues, I prefer a bit more "power" if you will.  My personal preference.  May not be yours.  That's the beauty of it all.  We're both right.


ngh