My last new Handi Rifle

[NONYA]

hONDA AND tOYOTA employ more assembly line workers than any of the other US name brands,get your facts straight.

[Cheesehead]

Corporations move their plants to 3rd world nations to increase profits by paying workers 25 cents an hour with no benefits while they live in a tin shack with a blue tarp for a roof while there is zero safety or environmental concerns. Blaming unions for this is an over simplification of a complex issue since as said before, unions are in a diminished state.

Cheese

[Davemuzz]

hONDA AND tOYOTA employ more assembly line workers than any of the other US name brands,get your facts straight.

I don't give a rat's anatomy about your "facts".  Here are MY FACTS: VW of America made an investment in New Stanton Pennsylvania many years ago. The State of Pa. gave them a 10 year tax break to build their darn cars. They imported stamped parts and engines and assembled 'em in Pa. After almost 10 years.....just about when the tax breaks were going to run out.....and they were not selling there cars.....they just shut down. they sold their equipment, sold the plant....said goodby and took their money back to a German bank. Don't tell me about foreign investment. It's a crock.

And "oh boy" yippie...we get to work for Toyota and Honda!!! Yah....hoo!! And how many American upper management folks do you think are in that place? Yeah....well, there's always the "bark" about management taking big salaries.....but what does the Nippon boys get? Why...you don't even know....cause it all goes to Japan where disclosure is a whole different ballgame. Yeah....tell me about workin for those guys and how "great" it is. All....and I mean ALL the profits go back to JAPAN. You think not??? Think again my friend.

At least here if the market turns bad, American workers get laid off.....but when the market turns back up, the American worker gets called back. You think that's gonna happen if Nippon pulls out? Fat chance on that one. Ask the VW workers.....oh sorry.....there no longer around. Well.....I can give  you some names of "former" VW workers.

I will keep buyin my Chevy's and Ford's. Quality is there. They have come up to or exceeded the Japs. It's all a mind set and the Japs have got the public bowled over.

Oh......and my $.02 on unions.....Unions helped get the blue collier worker where he needed to be. Then the Union got to be as FAT as the corporations they fought against. Then when reality started to hit....Union management just drowned in their own coffee and doughnuts and belly fat. Too late and too stupid to see the light.

MHO

Dave

[BBF]

last I heard, CEO's make about 10 times as much as the workers in Japan and European countries. In the US it is  hundreds of times.I am past working age but would work gladly for any foreign
owned/ named Co. that offered me a job at good wages locally. Do you think your Ford, GM or Chrysler product is made locally? Some aren't even assembled in the US anymore, never mind where the parts come from. I got a Pontiac that is totally made offshore because that is what I could afford, at least it wasn't made in China or Mexico.

[Davemuzz]

last I heard, CEO's make about 10 times as much as the workers in Japan and European countries.

Yeah.....and maybe butterfly's actually have wings made of Iron and maybe the Moon is made of green cheese.

I love this "the last I heard of" stuff! Where did you hear of it at? Down at the gas station from some local buffoon who can't even read page 3 of the Wall Street Journal? Yeah.....like "The last I heard" is a really reliable source.

Great post.

Ghezzzz.

Dave

[nomosendero]

Corporations move their plants to 3rd world nations to increase profits by paying workers 25 cents an hour with no benefits while they live in a tin shack with a blue tarp for a roof while there is zero safety or environmental concerns. Blaming unions for this is an over simplification of a complex issue since as said before, unions are in a diminished state.

Cheese

You might want to mention why they are in a diminished state. Never mind, I believe I already did. And yes, plenty of Corp. are overly greedy, so
why not both at the same time. I don't think I or anyone else said Unions are the ONLY problem.

[Cheesehead]

I do not remember using the term "100%", but if you feel the need to insert it in my post, feel free..

Cheese

[james25889]

i am going to disagree with DaveMuzz i bought a 2002 honda civic new it now has 220,000 miles runs perfect with absolutly no problems i also bought a 2002 chevrolet s10 zr2 new buy the time it had 38,000 miles on it it was on its 3rd transmision ford and chevrolet quality is not even close by the way i do work for honda pretty good paying job i dont believe i make as much as a ford or chevrolet worker but i believe i have alot more job security than they do.
  
i think the unions are somewhat at fault for the layoffs at ford and gm for wanting so many employes

[NONYA]

I have ownd several Hondas,all made in the USA,Ill bet daves truck wasnt.Hypocrisy rules!!!

[chip-don]

I would suspect(and hope) that moving to a new plant would call for new tooling we may be well served and pleased , new tooling may meen that we can buy new barrels like the t/c guys do

[Davemuzz]

i am going to disagree with DaveMuzz i bought a 2002 honda civic new it now has 220,000 miles runs perfect with absolutly no problems

Thats a walk in the park. I gave my 1989 Oldmobile Cutlass to my brother-in-law with 180K on it. It now has 240K on it and he drives it into Pittsburgh every day from the suburbs. Yeah...original engine and transmission. Made RIGHT HERE IN THE USA!!! No rice please.

Dave

[Davemuzz]

I have ownd several Hondas,all made in the USA,Ill bet daves truck wasnt.Hypocrisy rules!!!

And they said they would take us over in economics. And like sheep, we blindly follow.....and dance our way down down their path.

Dave

[NONYA]

RrrrrighhhhtttT....lets see "they" employ more American assembly line workers than your beloved truck manufacturers yet you chose to buy vehicles assembled outside of the US and call them the econmomic enemy....uhhhh OK.

[BBF]

the info about CEO's wages came from a major US TV network and not from a local gas station.

[Davemuzz]

RrrrrighhhhtttT....lets see "they" employ more American assembly line workers than your beloved truck manufacturers yet you chose to buy vehicles assembled outside of the US and call them the econmomic enemy....uhhhh OK.

Man....you really don't get it. Who is controlling the wealth here? Who is providing the jobs? Who owns the equipment, land and buildings? And where are those profits from the sale of those rice grinders going? Who do you think is ultimately going to end up "owning" 5th avenue in New York? Who do you think is going to own the majority of the Treasury obligations when the U.S. Treasury issues notes?

Well......I can tell ya it won't be the guys assembling the cars. No....it will be the Japs who control the foreign corporations that have all the money from the sale of stuff THAT THE SHEEP BOUGHT that will control all of that.

So....keep buyin your rice grinders. And when your Grandkids interest rate mortgages are controlled by Nippon....don't ask why....just buy another Toyota.

You don't get it.

Dave

[Davemuzz]

the info about CEO's wages came from a major US TV network and not from a local gas station.

Yeah......like FOX news. The winner of the "Dan Rather" award for great journalism.

[petemi]

We say around here, "If it don't stink, dont stir it."  Well, I guess I kinda stirred it.  It got away from NEF and Rem, but I think we all got something off our chests.  I believe what it boils down to is a lot of angry Americans.  If you really want to be upset, look at the upcoming election.  Talk about going downhill!!  Neither one is worth the blown out shot wad from my .410.

The thing that started this, is that I'm tired of watching small towns die because big business buys up local industry and shuts them down.  I doesn't matter where they move to, the locals are still screwed.

[NONYA]

And buying locally made goods regardless of the maker is the only thing we can do to keep the jobs we have left here,if you ignorance overpowers your sense of US worker loyalty by all means buy that truck made in mexico or canada,there are workers there that count on the ignorant US auto buyer to keep them in a job.I dont give a damn what the label,if its US  made its good enough for me.

[nomosendero]

I do not remember using the term "100%", but if you feel the need to insert it in my post, feel free..

Cheese

Actually, I inserted it into my post. Like you said before, it is a complicated issue.

[STUMPJMPR]

Its obvious foreign markets are killing us....Any product produced here can be produced in most other countries at a great cost reduction....The world market is the worst thing to happen to this country....Now the American dollar is getting more worthless by the day....Soon it will be cheaper to use $100 bills for toilet paper than to buy toilet paper....For the last 10 years the government said "There are no signs of Inflations"....Now inflation is kicking our ass...The rising cost of fuel and food....Before this is over we are going to see the bottom fall out....I hope i'm wrong but i feel we are on a road to self destruction....

[BBF]

what he said !
 There is a reason why the big $$ boys got accounts offshore and it is not in US currency.

[Davemuzz]

And buying locally made goods regardless of the maker is the only thing we can do to keep the jobs we have left here,if you ignorance overpowers your sense of US worker loyalty by all means buy that truck made in mexico or canada,there are workers there that count on the ignorant US auto buyer to keep them in a job.I dont give a damn what the label,if its US  made its good enough for me.

Why yes.....all American cars and trucks are made somewhere else. All of them. EVERY ONE OF THEM. Why is this? Because you said so....and Fox news probably backs you up.

So....remember....when you are 85 and in your rocking chair, and your grandchildren who work at Nippon and can't afford a mortgage because Japan controls the worlds monatary system, say "How did we get here"....don't blame it on the Government, Alzheimer's, or the guy next door......just go look in the mirror. Oh....and remember the "good 'ol days of drivin those Honda's!!!!!"

I know the economic concept is platitudes beyond self.

Dave

[blackhawk45]

The remington name was bough by a big conglomerate,their prices havnt risen like some others have.If you want to blame outsourcing on someone blame it on the unions that drive big american companys out,if they would work for the wages and benis that most non union people do this wouldnt be happening all over the US.Unless their quality takes a dump I will continue to buy from the BIG EVIL GREEN,show me one person you know who doesnt buy some product that is made outside of the US and Ill show you a  major gun company that doesent outsource some parts and pieces in their production process.

Sir , I have no idea where you get your information from ,but I suggest you find another source. As an EX union worker,I had lost my job of 24 years,It went to China,Why you ask. We were told that our wages were to high ,and not cost effective ! As 1st class Millwrights, we were earning $164.00 per day. while the C.E.O. was earning $18000.00 per day,AND THEY WERE PAYING ME TOO MUCH ? No Sir ,IT IS SOMETHING CALLED CORPORATE GREED !!!!!!!!

[nomosendero]

The remington name was bough by a big conglomerate,their prices havnt risen like some others have.If you want to blame outsourcing on someone blame it on the unions that drive big american companys out,if they would work for the wages and benis that most non union people do this wouldnt be happening all over the US.Unless their quality takes a dump I will continue to buy from the BIG EVIL GREEN,show me one person you know who doesnt buy some product that is made outside of the US and Ill show you a  major gun company that doesent outsource some parts and pieces in their production process.

Sir , I have no idea where you get your information from ,but I suggest you find another source. As an EX union worker,I had lost my job of 24 years,It went to China,Why you ask. We were told that our wages were to high ,and not cost effective ! As 1st class Millwrights, we were earning $164.00 per day. while the C.E.O. was earning $18000.00 per day,AND THEY WERE PAYING ME TOO MUCH ? No Sir ,IT IS SOMETHING CALLED CORPORATE GREED !!!!!!!!

Why can't it be both, Corp. greed possibly in your case & Unions in others, because they are both to blame in individual cases. I see plenty of both & if people aren't aware of that, then they are clueless.

[Davemuzz]

Big Corporations get big because they go out on the open market and ask people to give them money. In return for these people giving them money, the corporation gives them a piece of paper called "stock". The people who now have the "stock" can vote their "shares of stock" and appoint a new board of directors (BOD) if the current guys (BOD) who hire top management are doing a bad job, then the stockholders can fire them. The stockholders didn't give their money to a charity......they wanted a return on their money for the risk they were taking investing it. The stockholders expect profits and they expect management to run the company in a legal fashion in order to get those profits. Nothing personal, it's just business.

This is called Capitalism.

Now, it's not without flaws......but you got a better system?


Dave

[blackhawk45]

Why can't it be both, Corp. greed possibly in your case & Unions in others, because they are both to blame in individual cases. I see plenty of both & if people aren't aware of that, then they are clueless.



I don't know if I should print this,but here goes. I worked for Armstrong World Industries, The worlds largest manufacturer of Resilient flooring. My position there as a 1st class,journeyman millwright. I was required to repair,maintain,fabricate and install production equipment. My hourly pay was $20.51,now I'm not complaining, I believe that was a fare wage.overtime was abundant,and I worked it regularly. In fact ,I worked seven days a week when I could. There were thirteen millwrights in my shop,working three shifts. My final year there,2004 ,I earned just under $80,000, not too shabby, now consider that I was at work everyday,except for twentysix days,in 2003. thats  fifteen days vacation,and eleven holidays. Corporate, told us that we were being paid too much to be cost effective. Armstrong had just built a new plant in China,and the Residential,and Commercial Tile Flooring, would now be made in the new Chinese plant. Our C.E.O.s wages were printed in the local newspaper.shortly after the massive layoffs. his wage package, including prefered stocks,was 6.48 MILLION DOLLARS,now if you divide that number by 365 days,it worksout to nearly $18,000 per day, And they were paying me too much! No my friend,it is nothing but CORPORATE GREED !

[nomosendero]

Why can't it be both, Corp. greed possibly in your case & Unions in others, because they are both to blame in individual cases. I see plenty of both & if people aren't aware of that, then they are clueless.



I don't know if I should print this,but here goes. I worked for Armstrong World Industries, The worlds largest manufacturer of Resilient flooring. My position there as a 1st class,journeyman millwright. I was required to repair,maintain,fabricate and install production equipment. My hourly pay was $20.51,now I'm not complaining, I believe that was a fare wage.overtime was abundant,and I worked it regularly. In fact ,I worked seven days a week when I could. There were thirteen millwrights in my shop,working three shifts. My final year there,2004 ,I earned just under $80,000, not too shabby, now consider that I was at work everyday,except for twentysix days,in 2003. thats  fifteen days vacation,and eleven holidays. Corporate, told us that we were being paid too much to be cost effective. Armstrong had just built a new plant in China,and the Residential,and Commercial Tile Flooring, would now be made in the new Chinese plant. Our C.E.O.s wages were printed in the local newspaper.shortly after the massive layoffs. his wage package, including prefered stocks,was 6.48 MILLION DOLLARS,now if you divide that number by 365 days,it worksout to nearly $18,000 per day, And they were paying me too much! No my friend,it is nothing but CORPORATE GREED !

Did you not see where I said it could be in your case, but not in others? No my friend, in some cases it is Unions period & sometimes not & I can't believe some folks havn't seen this. But it has been good for me that in SOME cases the union guys have been hammerheads & forced companies to move to the South. I guess I should not complain.

[handirifle]

There are many sides to this argument and all are true, to a degree.  I now drive a 2006 Toyota Tundra truck, it replaced my 2006 GMC 1500, the GMC was forced to buy back on the lemon law.  I tried to get another new GMC but the '06's were gone and I'd have to upgrade to '07.  OK, thought, will have to pay a little more, even though I REALLY Guess where my AMERICAN TRUCK was made?   MEXICO?  After GM tried to shaft me for another $3K over the agreed price, I said screw it, give me my money back, I'll buy a Toyota.

But my Toyota was made in the USA.  So did I buy American?  Who the heck knows.

And for the union thoughts, let me share some words I heard this morning on a tour.  Our tour guide is a NYC public school teacher, 25 years of it.  On the tour he mentions that in 1930 a full 25% of ALL clothing sold in the US was made in NYC garment district.  Now only 5% is.  Why did they lose so much, we asked, HIS WORDS were, "the unions priced labor so high it forced many lines out of business, and in the 60's the mob truck drivers (draw whatever conclusion you will) had a way of "losing" a lot of merchandise, and closed many shops or sent them overseas."  Those were HIS words not mine.

FWIW, I believe him.

Unions had a time when they were really concerned about the worker, and for good reason.  Work conditions were horrible.  Nowdays, I'm convinced, from personal experiences, they are out for themselves.  I used to be in the union, till they kept sending MY dues to liberals, then "temporarily" raised the dues, for "political" battles I didn't support anyway.  THEN had the adaucity to say they needed to keep the dues increase to cover expenses.  All the while they send their reps to expensive hotels for the "conventions" at our expense.

At work it was often hard to tell who I worked for.  It became impossible to get things done because the union rep had to send it through the comittee and they had to approve it.  Any workgroup "improvement" comittees were ONLY comprised of union members, even though most had 1-3 years of experience on the job, with the rest of us 20+ year veterans ideas being ignored.

One thing they were VERY quick to do, was change the seniority system from one that has worked well for 30+ years (you know, the one that says the LONGER you work on the job the MORE seniority you have) to one that often favored an employee with 2-3 years over someone with 15 years.

Now THAT is looking out for the employee!

Just remember this Power Corrupts!  It doesn't matter who has it either.

I do not see unions as evil, but I do not see them as a solution either.  Ours did everything in THEIR power to strip the management of IT'S power.  Now if YOU owned a business how would YOU feel about losing control of it?  As an employee, a worker bee, I see it like this.  I take no financial risk in my company, nor do I assume any liabilities, yet I do get pay and benifits for my labors.  If I want more than they offer, I have the freedom to go into business for myself and assume those risks on my own, this is a free country.  If I chose not to, then I must figure that I am unwilling to accept those risks, and give the owner a bit of leeway for their willingness to do that.

To sum it up, is easy, It's put up or shut up".

[jon f]

Wait till the Chinese start exporting cheap cars to the US. Disposable crap, just like their guns.
I'm in Australia and you should see the poorly made dirt bikes from China that are being sold here.
No resale value, not that anyone would want a second hand one anyway.
Stick to your guns and keep buying Hodgen powder because its made here...

[dpe.ahoy]

do the words, "dead horse" and "beating" apply here?   DP.