Author Topic: Randy Wakeman vs. type of Encore breechplug (Read 4777 times)

agdexter · « **on:** July 22, 2003, 04:39:36 PM »

Randy, you mentioned in a reply that the type of Encore breechplug you have may affect the 777 crud ring. Could you please advise what type and how. Thanks

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2003, 04:08:29 PM »

Quote from: agdexter

Randy, you mentioned in a reply that the type of Encore breechplug you have may affect the 777 crud ring. Could you please advise what type and how. Thanks

The original Encore breech plugs were concave. Thompson had field issues with customers crushing Pyrodex pellets, and introduced the solid breech plug with a small counterbore to better support the pellets. That, it did.

However, Thompson received a bunch of complaints about both Pyrodex and Triple 7 crud buld up about 2" from the breechplug. They did some testing, and found out that their customers were right. They were unable to determine exactly "how" or why the excessive build up was being formed, but they were able to duplicate it.

So now, Thompson has a "STAGE III" breechplug. They went back to the concave style, but the perimeter of the breechplug face is thicker to prevent pellet crushing. That's whole story. So, if you have an Encore or Omega solid breechplug and are getting crud / fouling build-up, a new concave breechplug is your likely solution.

Bullseye · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2003, 06:05:40 PM »

How big is the concave part of the Stage III plug. I know the plug in my gun is a Stage I because it is the deep concave with no flat area. I have another one that is concave in the middle, but it is not very deep, maybe a 1/16" deep. Does this sound like a II or III.

Also curious, I know you are not suppose to crush the pellets. What is the results of shooting crushed pellets?

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2003, 07:09:08 PM »

Quote from: Bullseye

but it is not very deep, maybe a 1/16" deep. Does this sound like a II or III.

Also curious, I know you are not suppose to crush the pellets. What is the results of shooting crushed pellets?

Stage II - - - the latest "III" plugs are about 3/8" deep.

Crushed pellets just can't combust uniformly through the inner flame channel, and from the outside in like they were designed to do. At the least, wildly erratic velocities / pressures and resultant poor accuracy would be expected.

Charlie Detroit · « **Reply #4 on:** July 24, 2003, 03:25:24 AM »

The cure fore all of this is to shoot loose powder. As a bonus, you're not restricted to 50-gr. increments.

crow_feather · « **Reply #5 on:** July 24, 2003, 04:43:55 AM »

D Boone had the same problem - so he went to straight black powder and round ball with a patch - never had another problem shooting a Bar.

C F

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #6 on:** July 25, 2003, 12:08:50 AM »

The problem, aside from Daniel's spelling, is he didn't know much about Encores.

crow_feather · « **Reply #7 on:** July 25, 2003, 04:41:10 AM »

yes, you are right, don't know much about encores - way back when, people wanted to hunt black powder seasons but didn't want the muss and fuss of patch, ball, patch lubricant, caps that tended to get wet in the rain, powder horns, possible bags, and walking around the woods in 1840's clothing or leather. They just wanted to hunt without all the muss and fuss. Now they have to have the proper barrel plug, the right powder pellet that can't be crushed and has the black powder primer attached to the rear which means that they have to insert the pellet the correct way or it won't go off, worry about their pellets getting wet because even if they dry out they aren't usable, the proper sabot, the correct choice of the hundred's of bullets, the propper tool to take the plug out so they can clean the barrel, and a crud ring.
I have discovered an easier way. Pour powder down the barrel, put a patched ball on top, put a cap on the nipple, pull the trigger.

mamaflinter · « **Reply #8 on:** July 25, 2003, 11:12:09 AM »

Quote from: Charlie Detroit

The cure fore all of this is to shoot loose powder. As a bonus, you're not restricted to 50-gr. increments.

Charlie you're quite right about this. Not to mention you get more powder for your money buying loose powder over pellets.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #9 on:** July 25, 2003, 01:46:12 PM »

Quote from: crow-feather

They just wanted to hunt without all the muss and fuss. Now they have to have the proper barrel plug, the right powder pellet that can't be crushed and has the black powder primer attached to the rear which means that they have to insert the pellet the correct way or it won't go off, worry about their pellets getting wet because even if they dry out they aren't usable, the proper sabot, the correct choice of the hundred's of bullets, the propper tool to take the plug out so they can clean the barrel, and a crud ring.

It isn't QUITE as bad as that. Drop in two pellets Triple 7 pellets (either way ), followed by a 348 grain Powerbelt. Pull trigger, pick up animal.

To clean, shove muzzle in a pail of water.

crow_feather · « **Reply #10 on:** July 25, 2003, 03:36:17 PM »

RANDY,
MAYBE I SHOULD LOOK INTO THIS ENCORE STUFF - EXCEPT I'M MORE OF A SHOOT AND RELEASE PERSON MYSELF

c f

kevin · « **Reply #11 on:** July 25, 2003, 05:27:13 PM »

RANDY, I HAVE TRIED PYRODEX PELLETS AND FRIENDS HAVE USED AND TRIED THE NEW T-7 PELLETS, BUT YA KNOW WHAT, BLACK POWDER TO ME IS A WHOLE LOT CHEAPER, TO BUY AND USE, FIRST , A CAN OF LETS SAY GOEX COST ME 9.50 A CAN ( I BUY BY THE CASE LOT) AND ELEPHANT 7.50 A CAN, COMPARED TO PYRODEX THATS TWO CANS OF POWDER TO ONE BOX OF PELLETS, AND THEN I TOP THE LOAD OFF WITH A 348 GRAIN POWER BELT AND GET THE SAME RESULT,OUT OF MY .50 CAL T/C HAWKIN, SO TELL ME WHY ALL THE EXPENCE FOR THE SAME RESULT.
KEVIN

Bullseye · « **Reply #12 on:** July 25, 2003, 05:58:58 PM »

Well now, this turned from an informational post to one of them agrumentative posts. I shoot pellets (pyrodex and 777) but I also have a can of black powder around. If anyone thinks that the black powder cures all the problems you are kidding yourself. My barrel gets so crudy with black it becomes hard to load sabots on the second shot. Powerbelts do load easy, but if you are loading those expensive things with black powder then a lot of your cost savings just went out the door. Black powder is cheaper without a doubt and has its problems. The pellets are more expensive and have their problems. Pick the one that suits your needs best and shoot it and have fun.

johnt · « **Reply #13 on:** July 25, 2003, 06:34:19 PM »

I'm with crow feather on this one too.

If it ain't broke,dont' fix it. simple.

no matter how many times the wheel is re-invented, it's still round.

I think if half them fellers shootin in-lines was ta spent as much time shootin'm as they do yakin bout'm :-D , they wasn't have so's many queary's how's ta be a shoot'm

bubba · « **Reply #14 on:** July 26, 2003, 01:06:40 AM »

Goex 90 gr ffg 490 patched round ball a cap and a sidelock. Hmm this method has worked for me for well over 20 years. Why mess with success. I guess I like the less complicated and relatively stress free methods.

mamaflinter · « **Reply #15 on:** July 26, 2003, 04:07:30 AM »

Quote from: Bullseye

I shoot pellets (pyrodex and 777) but I also have a can of black powder around. If anyone thinks that the black powder cures all the problems you are kidding yourself. My barrel gets so crudy with black it becomes hard to load sabots on the second shot.

Bullseye There is no one cure for all muzzleloader shooters. While I get good performance out of Elephant, others don't. While they get good performance out of Goex I don't. It could also be something with shooting the sabots. I can't say for sure since I don't shoot them.

Out of curiousity, what kind of blackpowder do you have and what is the lot code (found on the bottom of the can? It could be that you may have a can of powder from a bad year (yes sometimes manufacturers do make bad batches of powder).

The only way to get consistent results from blackpowder is to order Swiss. This is the most consistent powder on the market. The Swiss only make 100 pound batches and everything is tested, and retested before it is added to the mix. If it's not within their specs they pitch it and start all over.

Also there is no reason for the bickering. You don't have to argue to get a point across. This is a sport where there is ample room for everyone with enough variables to keep us all busy for years to come. Use what works for you and have fun doing it.

crow_feather · « **Reply #16 on:** July 26, 2003, 07:31:15 AM »

I found that the absence of any oil in my barrel allows more shots before cleaning is necessary. Use super hot soapy water, then after drying - wipe the bore down with T/C bore butter or any other such non-petroleum gunk.
Never put oil in the barrel again and you will find a noticable difference. After all , great great great grandpa never used oil.

I also agree that arguements are unnecessary - some people sometimes let their feelings get the best of them but all in all, we are all just shooters.
Some are smart and shoot a sidelock and then there are others

mamaflinter · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2003, 04:33:37 PM »

Quote from: crow-feather

I found that the absence of any oil in my barrel allows more shots before cleaning is necessary. Use super hot soapy water, then after drying - wipe the bore down with T/C bore butter or any other such non-petroleum gunk.

crow-feather I hate to be the bearer of bad news but bore butter is a petroleum by product. That's great that you can use it without any problem but there are some who have had rust and build up after using it for a prolonged period of time.

crow_feather · « **Reply #18 on:** July 27, 2003, 05:38:39 AM »

crow-feather I hate to be the bearer of bad news but bore butter is a petroleum by product. That's great that you can use it without any problem but there are some who have had rust and build up after using it for a prolonged period of time.

I"m sorry that I misled. I"ve always had good results.
In reading the back of my TC Bore Butter tube - I read "NON-TOXIC, ALL INGREDIENTS ARE FOOD GRADE RATED and BIODEGRADABLE" and also states that it "will not chemically react with black powder or Pyrodex".

I always used my home made moose milk when I shoot and thus never have to worry about cleaning between shots anyway. But I do lubricate with this type of lube after cleaning and have never had rust or buildup in my 25 years of shooting.

The trick I guess is to season the bore with the product. You have to use almost boiling water to get the oil out of the pores of the bore - then while still very hot and dry - wipe down the bore with a non-petroleum lube.

May your shooting always be in the X-ring

C F

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #19 on:** August 25, 2003, 10:21:32 AM »

Guys (and ladies),

Threads like this are a real shame. AGDexter put my name on this thread, which I answered to the best of ability-- simple as that.

What any individual cares to shoot is their own business, I could not care less. It is something called "freedom of choice" that, in large measure, had a great deal to do with the founding of this country.

You make your own choices freely, and I will happily do the same-- with or without the approval of the Internet.

Underclocked · « **Reply #20 on:** August 25, 2003, 04:01:57 PM »

So Randy, who's winnin' - you or the breech plugs?

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #21 on:** August 26, 2003, 05:15:07 AM »

Underclocked · « **Reply #22 on:** September 04, 2003, 08:23:41 PM »

Randy uploaded a couple of pics of his cute Encore stage 3 breechplug. Here 'tis.

Sorry Randy, I couldn't help myself. :grin:

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #23 on:** September 05, 2003, 03:13:44 AM »

You forgot the simply stunning side view--

"Clean threads are happy threads."

sduve · « **Reply #24 on:** September 05, 2003, 02:53:49 PM »

Is there any chance of pics being posted of the 2 previous breech plugs? I have a 2 yr old bbl and my son just bought one and it is clear the plugs are different. Thanks

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #25 on:** September 07, 2003, 03:31:52 AM »

Do you really want me to scan the solid one?

If you have fouling build-up, the above is currently available from Thompson.

Triple Se7en · « **Reply #26 on:** September 07, 2003, 03:57:52 AM »

Randy

That new plug design may not benefit all loose powder users... especially those that fail to tap the sides of their barrel after loading the powder. That is a serious-looking cavity in there. So many shooters pour their powder on a tilted barrel -- then leave it tilted to load the projectile.

It may be a good idea for T/C to expound on proper loading measures in their owners manuals. As a loose powder user, I'm having 2nd thoughts about ordering the new design. I may become content with my "crud ring".

Bullseye · « **Reply #27 on:** September 08, 2003, 03:19:29 PM »

I would think that if you are shooting loose powder then the original Stage 1 breechplug would be the best. Thats what mine has and I was planning on sticking with it since I am now shooting loose powder.

cokdnloded · « **Reply #28 on:** October 19, 2003, 04:22:55 AM »

The links seem to be broken for the pics of the breech plugs. Could someone repost them or possibly email them to me? IM me for email address.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #29 on:** November 15, 2003, 04:06:33 PM »

Quote from: Bullseye

I would think that if you are shooting loose powder then the original Stage 1 breechplug would be the best. Thats what mine has and I was planning on sticking with it since I am now shooting loose powder.

I agree with you-- at least there is no advantage to a Stage III plug with loose powder. Crushing pellets was the entire reason for the change in the first place.