Author Topic: Hubbard's gonna make carrierless plugs! (Read 2471 times)

Buckhammer74 · « **on:** June 17, 2008, 08:07:52 AM »

Im your guinea pig boys.

Just got off the the phone with Hubbard and he said that he hadent made any headway on plugs cause he needed to have the barrel and plug to do it. He said he was looking for a used one but was probably just gonna have to buy a new one.

I offered to send him my barrel and plug to expedite things.

He said that he is gonna make them in two pieces. He is gonna copy the Nef plug and make removably nipples for them.

Mine is the newer style 5/8" plug.

Will keep you posted.

Buckhammer74

Busta · « **Reply #1 on:** June 17, 2008, 11:37:35 AM »

Buckhammer74,

I have been talking to Ben over the last couple weeks, he is supposed to be sending me a 7/8" two piece plug. The 209 pocket nipple has a .040" flash hole and 1/4-28 threads. I have been checking the mail as soon as I get home from work since last Monday, but nothing has showed up yet. When it gets here I will test it out with BH209 for compatability and post my results.

Ben said he would look for some NEF's at a gunshow last weekend, but it don't look like he located anything. I haven't talked to him this week, but am getting pretty anxious to try out that plug.

I have been trying to get him to make a 209 plug since 2003, hopefully this comes to fruition. With the Blackhorn 209 powder, there will be a market for them.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #2 on:** June 17, 2008, 11:39:09 AM »

That is fine for percussion caps but my interest is for 209 primers so that we can shoot Blackhorn 209. Anyone else on this page also?

Busta · « **Reply #3 on:** June 17, 2008, 11:54:17 AM »

Quote from: Keith Lewis on June 17, 2008, 11:39:09 AM

That is fine for percussion caps but my interest is for 209 primers so that we can shoot Blackhorn 209. Anyone else on this page also?

Keith,

This is a 209 plug!

Buckhammer74 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 17, 2008, 06:23:03 PM »

Quote from: Busta on June 17, 2008, 11:37:35 AM

Buckhammer74,

I have been talking to Ben over the last couple weeks, he is supposed to be sending me a 7/8" two piece plug. The 209 pocket nipple has a .040" flash hole and 1/4-28 threads. I have been checking the mail as soon as I get home from work since last Monday, but nothing has showed up yet. When it gets here I will test it out with BH209 for compatability and post my results.

Ben said he would look for some NEF's at a gunshow last weekend, but it don't look like he located anything. I haven't talked to him this week, but am getting pretty anxious to try out that plug.

I have been trying to get him to make a 209 plug since 2003, hopefully this comes to fruition. With the Blackhorn 209 powder, there will be a market for them.

Busta,
I was the one that PMed you about the 7/8 plug Ben had, I hope it works for you.

Ben told me about looking at the gunshows too. Thats when I offered to send him my barrel and plug. He said he would cut me a deal for saving him the cash on buying a new NEF to test his plug on.

That is great that he is making the flashhole .040" I saw a diagram on hpmuzzleloading.com that suggests the flashhole should be atleast .036" for optimal use with bh209. The diagram looks similar to a NEF plug but the flashhole and the "primer channel" are reversed. I think I will print that diagram and send it with my barrel in case he finds it useful. I have measured the length of the flashhole on my plug to be about 6mm and am not sure that his nipple will have enough room, If he copies the Nef plug.

Best of luck with the 7/8.

Buckhammer74

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2008, 05:11:22 AM »

Quote from: Busta on June 17, 2008, 11:54:17 AM

Quote from: Keith Lewis on June 17, 2008, 11:39:09 AM
That is fine for percussion caps but my interest is for 209 primers so that we can shoot Blackhorn 209. Anyone else on this page also?

Keith,

This is a 209 plug!

Without seeing a diagram I thought the two piece meant that he was making it to take a standard percussion nipple. Great to hear that it is for the 209 as my Huntsman would be super with BH209 and the new plug. Thanks for the info.

Busta · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2008, 12:36:06 PM »

I talked to Ben again today to see if he got my address that I sent him in an e-mail as he requested. I think he has been busy with other projects and hasn't sent the plug yet. Hopefully I can give a report soon.

Buckhammer74 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2008, 05:50:34 PM »

My barrel is on the way, and should get to Ben by friday. Hopefully it wont be too long of a wait.

LHitchcox · « **Reply #8 on:** June 19, 2008, 02:16:45 AM »

Thanks guys. I also am interested in shooting Blackhorn 209 in my sidekick. I bought a jug to use in my Omega, and was planning on using it in my Sidekick as well until I read Busta's report. I was bummed out. Not it's starting to look rosy again.

Leon

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2008, 06:13:18 AM »

If you are talking to him; let him know that I am up for one of the plugs also. I already have his ramrod which is great. I am sure that he can sell four or five immediately. ( I have yet to figure out how to use the quote portion of this site and have things arranged as I think they should be)

I talked to Ben again today to see if he got my address that I sent him in an e-mail as he requested. I think he has been busy with other projects and hasn't sent the plug yet. Hopefully I can give a report soon.
[/quote]

Reese · « **Reply #10 on:** June 23, 2008, 07:58:39 AM »

Please keep us posted. I would like one for my Huntsman. Now if only I could find BH209 locally here in SE PA.

LHitchcox · « **Reply #11 on:** June 25, 2008, 06:40:33 AM »

I got an e-mail from Hubbards yesterday saying that he has plugs ready for the 7/8 in. diameter barrels. Ordered one this morning along with a ramrod for my Sidekick.

He said he would ship before the check got there. How's that for trust in the Graybeard community.

Leon

Busta · « **Reply #12 on:** June 25, 2008, 12:45:24 PM »

Quote from: LHitchcox on June 25, 2008, 06:40:33 AM

I got an e-mail from Hubbards yesterday saying that he has plugs ready for the 7/8 in. diameter barrels. Ordered one this morning along with a ramrod for my Sidekick.

He said he would ship before the check got there. How's that for trust in the Graybeard community.

Leon

Leon,

Sounds good, but I have been waiting since the 9th, and then the 18th. The Pony Express might need some fresh ponies. Hopefully soon.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 25, 2008, 12:59:48 PM »

I'd be interested in a plug.

Dooger · « **Reply #14 on:** June 25, 2008, 05:59:13 PM »

THANK GOD!

I have a newer Sidekick, which plug do I need exactly?...you guys are confusing me... and I'm exited.

Buckhammer74 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 25, 2008, 06:28:02 PM »

Quote from: Dooger on June 25, 2008, 05:59:13 PM

THANK GOD!

I have a newer Sidekick, which plug do I need exactly?...you guys are confusing me... and I'm exited.

Dooger,

The newer sidekicks/huntsmen take the 5/8 plug. Exactly what year they changed from 7/8 Busta would know.

I talked to Ben today and he has my newer barrel and is working on the 5/8 plug.

Will let you know more when I do.

Buckhammer74

Dooger · « **Reply #16 on:** June 26, 2008, 04:53:04 AM »

Busta, do you know?

Busta · « **Reply #17 on:** June 26, 2008, 11:24:12 AM »

Quote from: Dooger on June 26, 2008, 04:53:04 AM

Busta, do you know?

If you pull your plug and measure the diameter at the threads, then YOU will know. They went to the 5/8" plug in 2005, but some of the rifles being sold in 2005 were manufactured with the 7/8" plugs. 2001 through 2004 Huntsmans, first year Sidekicks (2004) and some into 2005 (Cabelas Heritage) had the 7/8" plugs in them.

If your plug looks like this it is a 7/8" plug. If your plug has a larger diameter shoulder and smaller diameter threads, you have a 5/8" plug.

7/8" Plugs, shown with my "easy as pie" no mod #11 conversion.

Busta · « **Reply #18 on:** June 27, 2008, 01:57:46 PM »

Guess what was in my mailbox when I got home from work today?

Will post pics later in a new thread.

Couger · « **Reply #19 on:** June 27, 2008, 09:07:46 PM »

Quote from: Busta on June 26, 2008, 11:24:12 AM

Quote from: Dooger on June 26, 2008, 04:53:04 AM
Busta, do you know?

If you pull your plug and measure the diameter at the threads, then YOU will know. They went to the 5/8" plug in 2005, but some of the rifles being sold in 2005 were manufactured with the 7/8" plugs. 2001 through 2004 Huntsmans, first year Sidekicks (2004) and some into 2005 (Cabelas Heritage) had the 7/8" plugs in them.

If your plug looks like this it is a 7/8" plug. If your plug has a larger diameter shoulder and smaller diameter threads, you have a 5/8" plug.

7/8" Plugs, shown with my "easy as pie" no mod #11 conversion.

That looks like an excellent mod, but any chance this modification can be done to accept musket caps?

I live in Washington state and our hunting muzzleloaders must use #11 or musket percussion caps to be legal (or flintlocks).

I prefer to use the larger, hotter musket caps and not the #11's.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

Busta · « **Reply #20 on:** June 28, 2008, 02:54:34 AM »

Quote from: Couger on June 27, 2008, 09:07:46 PM

That looks like an excellent mod, but any chance this modification can be done to accept musket caps?

I live in Washington state and our hunting muzzleloaders must use #11 or musket percussion caps to be legal (or flintlocks).

I prefer to use the larger, hotter musket caps and not the #11's.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

Couger,

I'm sure it could be done if you know some one who can machine a musket cap nipple like those #11 inserts. The problems I see are; using the standard firing pin, you would still need a small entrance in the nipple to insure ignition. If you opened it up any, the standard firing pin might just put a big dent in the center of the cap. At that point you would basically be negating alot of spark/flame and you would not be any further ahead IMO. The OLD Huntsmans had a big flat firing pin for striking the #11 caps. The primer carrier #11 conversion works, but is not without it's limits. Lots of blowback into the receiver and firing pin channel, about a maximum of 5 shots before you need to give it a serious cleaning, especially the firing pin and channel. While this would work good for a hunting situation, it is very limiting at the range. I was thinking about the States, such as WA when I came up with the idea. I have a thread about this I'll give you a link to.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,124756.0.html

Busta · « **Reply #21 on:** June 30, 2008, 12:00:19 PM »

Sorry guys, but I just got off the phone with Ben, he will not be making any more Huntsman/Sidekick plugs. They are just to cost prohibitive to make by hand, and the tolerances from one NEF breech to the next are just too great. The way he makes these plugs, they come all the way back to the breech end of the barrel and fit flush.

A lot of work goes into making up one of these plugs. I just couldn't understand how he could do it without having to charge an arm and a leg. I'm sorry I got everybody excited, I really thought we were on to something here.

Back to the drawing board!

We need to find someone with a CNC that could make one just like the T/C plug.

Buckhammer74 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 30, 2008, 05:50:40 PM »

Bummer...

I guess I better call him tomorrow and see if he is gonna finish mine or not. He's had my barrel for couple of weeks now.

Buckhammer74 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 01, 2008, 06:23:29 PM »

Well I talked to Ben today and he said my plug and barrel were boxed up and would ship out today.

He was in a hurry, and Busta already answered whether or not he was gonna make anymore, So I didnt press.

I too am sorry fellas. I assumed when he told me to send him my barrel (for the 5/8 plug) that he would be able to make them in a way that was cost effective. You cant blame him for having to make a living.

I wonder if it would be cost effective if someone were to send him their NEF plug and have him drill and tap it for his primer carrier, leaving the carrier long enough that you could file off the end to fit your specific gun.

I thought it was kind of strange that he would want to manufacture the PLUG and the primer carrier. Why not buy a bunch of NEF plugs and put the carrier in them?

Busta, did he just copy the NEF plug, or is his dimensionally different?

Busta · « **Reply #24 on:** July 02, 2008, 01:10:33 PM »

The 5/8' plug can't be made the same way as the 7/8' plug. The counter bore (.500" deep, .585" I.D.) for the primer holder would not leave any material below the shoulder where the threads are relieved. The 5/8" plug would also take longer to make, since more material needs to be removed for the smaller diameter threads. It sounded like too much work for the way he wanted to make them. I really don't know what you are going to get Buckhammer.

I would like a one piece plug just like the .25 ACP plug, except with a 209 primer pocket instead of the .25 ACP pocket. It would be a piece of cake for whoever manufactures Cecils .25 ACP plugs to make them.

TheSuper · « **Reply #25 on:** July 03, 2008, 06:22:08 AM »

Thanks,Busta,for all the followup with Ben on these breechplugs. I haven't seen one of Cecil's 25ACP conversion plugs yet so maybe I'm about to ask a stupid question ? Do you suppose the primer pocket on one of his plugs could be machined or somehow reworked to fit a 209 ? Thanks again for all the help and great info ... I'm really enjoying this forum !! Wayne

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #26 on:** July 03, 2008, 01:57:43 PM »

Quote from: TheSuper on July 03, 2008, 06:22:08 AM

Thanks,Busta,for all the followup with Ben on these breechplugs. I haven't seen one of Cecil's 25ACP conversion plugs yet so maybe I'm about to ask a stupid question ? Do you suppose the primer pocket on one of his plugs could be machined or somehow reworked to fit a 209 ? Thanks again for all the help and great info ... I'm really enjoying this forum !! Wayne

That will not work as the .25ACP plug is designed to have a fair amount of brass between the surface of the plug and the breechface so that the brass can be removed without a tool. If the pocket were to be machined to fit a 209 the depth of the primer would be about 3/16 of an inch from the breechface and firing pin.

Busta · « **Reply #27 on:** July 03, 2008, 05:38:25 PM »

The .25 ACP plug already has too much material removed. It could be done, but not without considerable time involved. You would have to make some type of insert, preferably threaded with a flame channel and then mill it off flat and cut a 209 primer pocket.

The best plug IMO would be to take the .25 ACP plug and use all the exact same measurements except just cut a 209 primer pocket instead of the pocket for the .25 ACP brass. If you throw a .25 ACP brass in your .25 ACP Plug, measure the length with and without brass for exposure.

I get 1.371" with brass overall length, 1.255" without brass, .116" of brass exposed. The 209 primer exposure on one of my Knight breech plugs is .130"(CCI)-.135"(Win W209), depending on which type of primer, they are not all the same length. Somewhere between .125" and .140" should be enough to get ahold of it after shooting.

TheSuper · « **Reply #28 on:** July 04, 2008, 05:33:39 AM »

Again,thanks to both you and Keith for very detailed explanations ... makes it a whole lot easier for a ML newbie like me. Wondering if anyone has approached Cecil to see if maybe he'd be interested in helping us out with this ? Meanwhile, I'm going to see if I can locate an old retired machinist (who just happens to be a hunter) I used to work with.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #29 on:** July 04, 2008, 07:01:14 AM »

Busta: I have not checked mine out yet but just had another idea. What about making some small spacers (washers) that would go on the 209 primer so that the rim of the 209 is locked solid between the old .25ACP plug and the breech. Might have to figure out how to save them in a rush hunting but maybe that could be done??? I do have a small lathe but am not very much of a real machinist. I have a friend in Georgia that is great but hate to ask him. He already made a 40-65 Rolling Block rifle for me out of an old action. It is absolutely beautiful. He also has made a Gattling gun and several other rifles basically from scratch. Sure wish I had his ability.