Author Topic: enfield 1917 sporter question (Read 11553 times)

Mike Britton · « **Reply #30 on:** July 03, 2008, 03:10:09 AM »

Nice shooter! Sweet piece of wood.

Cowpox · « **Reply #31 on:** July 07, 2008, 04:09:35 PM »

Matt,
Take drdougrx's advice, and keep your's original. On the on-line auction sites, you should be able to make a profit on your's, if it is un-altered and nice. Back in the days belted magnums were new, you could only buy European and British works of art. A bare magnum action would cost a common man about two months wages, and he still had to buy the other componants, and pay a rifle smith to put things together for him.
Soon, the shooting world turned to the 1917 for affordable Magnum rifles. So much so, that it was often called "the poor man's magnum". It remains the poor man's magnum to this day. There are lots of nice custom 1917 conversions available at really low prices. Case in point, http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=104138929 .
If you really want a sportered 1917, you simpley can't justify building one yourself, when there are many customs available for less than an original 1917's value.
Oh yes, and the 1917 does NOT cock on closing. It half cocks on opening, and finishes cocking on closing. Because it was military, the striker spring is far stronger than it had to be, and a lighter spring really helps the action. Of course, that is just another expense added to the already expensive conversion price.
Can a 1917 or Pattern 14 be turned into an ideal sporting rifle ? Probably, but at a far greater price than a good sporting rifle costs. Are they a POS ? Hardly. As Mike Britton pointed out, "They are what they are". A very durable, robust, dependable, and accurate battle rifle, that served us well in two World conflicts. They were the AK 47 of their day. A low cost, easily massed produced, yet very effective weapon.
Thank God the British came up with the design, and contracted Remington and Winchester to build them a bunch, so the tooling was in place when we got caught short of guns. Without them, we would have been sending many of our troops against the 98 Mauser armed with Krags, Rolling Blocks, and maybe, Trapdoors !

jmayton · « **Reply #32 on:** July 08, 2008, 04:36:56 AM »

mjbgalt, I'm in the same situation. I have a Remington 1917 that was sporterized when I received it. I don't need a caliber larger than .30, so I'm thinking about going with the 25-06. The current barrel is in bad shape, so if I'm going to use it, I'll have to rebarrel. As for cock-on-closing, it's the only one I have, but my rifles share few similarities with each other, and I like shooting them all from single shot break actions to the Ar-15. They're all fun and all unique. That's why I like having the 1917, it has its own character that is distinct from the others. I'm just not one to have a safe full of similar rifles in different calibers....but that's just me.

Judson · « **Reply #33 on:** July 08, 2008, 11:39:21 AM »

If you do not like the cock on close, (I do not) then change it to cock on open it is not much of a job. As to the poor miss guided Eddystone actions, the reason for them getting the reputation for cracking is over tight barrels and improper barrel removal. I have never cracked one of these and used many however the action must be suported right and if the barrel is not coming off with reasonable force then it needs trip to the lath to remove the shoulder on the barrel.
The P-14/17 actions clean up great and will swallow cartridges the size of the .416 Rigby and function flawlessly. They are great for big stuff but labor intensive to make nice looking. If done right you end up with something looking like the 720 Remington, considered by many to be the finest bolt gun Remington ever produced. If you want to see a reworked one and what can be done go to customguns.us and click on custom builds.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #34 on:** July 08, 2008, 03:02:00 PM »

Quote from: Judson on July 08, 2008, 11:39:21 AM

If you do not like the cock on close, (I do not) then change it to cock on open it is not much of a job. As to the poor miss guided Eddystone actions, the reason for them getting the reputation for cracking is over tight barrels and improper barrel removal. I have never cracked one of these and used many however the action must be suported right and if the barrel is not coming off with reasonable force then it needs trip to the lath to remove the shoulder on the barrel.
The P-14/17 actions clean up great and will swallow cartridges the size of the .416 Rigby and function flawlessly. They are great for big stuff but labor intensive to make nice looking. If done right you end up with something looking like the 720 Remington, considered by many to be the finest bolt gun Remington ever produced. If you want to see a reworked one and what can be done go to customguns.us and click on custom builds.

Ah.. the voice of reason! In my limited experience this is a succinct statement of the 1917.

I have one, a Winchester made in 1918; full military of course. But the magnum length always intrigued me! The "labor intensive" aspect notwithstanding, even the floorplate which, since it MUST be modified anyway, lends itself to one of them gosh awful pretty drop magazines... A friend has a "spoterized" one he wants to sell. I thought about it... for a Rigby, but I'd never have the opportunity to use it. <sniff>

clattin · « **Reply #35 on:** July 11, 2008, 02:49:57 AM »

I have a customized P-17 (Winchester) that has been made into a benchrest gun. It has a full 30" Shaw barrel in .25-06 and a Timney trigger. Makes a great benchrest gun or prarie dog gun. I wouldn't want to carry it very far because it is HEAVY! All decked out it tips the scales at about 16 lbs! Beautiful walnut stock and a big ol scope makes it one heck of a tack driver! Below are a couple pics. I don't mind the cock on close mechanism.....I think it would throw me a curve if I was carrying it and wanted a quick second shot, but I don't use it for that and I don't think it would slow me down much.

I can see how they would make an EXCELLENT big bore magnum...those actions are sturdy!

Chris

Mike Britton · « **Reply #36 on:** July 11, 2008, 08:28:56 AM »

That's a keeper!!

Nessmuk#1 · « **Reply #37 on:** July 21, 2008, 04:34:35 AM »

257Roberts? How about 6.5mm-06?? Anything with a long for weight bullet.

parkergunshop · « **Reply #38 on:** December 29, 2010, 07:14:52 AM »

Interesting thread, If you are a true gun nut and know what you are doing and or just want to learn gunsmithing, the 1914 and 1917 Enfields are one of the best to work with.

I have used one Eddystone 1917 after having it rockwell tested, two Remington 1914, one Winchester 1914 with excellent results. Calibers 270 Winchester, .338 Winchester Magnum, 375 H&H Magnum, 458 Winchester Magnum. E. R. Shaw barrels fitted by Shaw, MPI, Bishop and Fajen Stocks, Dayton Traister triggers with cock on opening, straightened bolt handles, recontoured receivers to use Remington 30 scope bases.

The 338 Winchester mag is the best shooter, will stay in the .3-4 tenth inch range, the .458 the worst due to recoil, but still shots inside 3/4 inch, the .375 and .270 are 1/2 inch shooters all for 3 shot groups at 100 yards from a bench rest. I use the .270 as my varmint rifle and have killed deer with all of them.

As I did all the work except for barrel fitting, none of these rifles cost me more than $400-500 dollars.

I also like High Number 1903 Springfields especially for 30-06 or 25-06, Mauser 98 type actions for standard calibers are the best particulary if you have one from a good maker with proper heat treatment. The best group shot to date with a hunting rifle was a Polish 98 mauser actioned .35 Whelen in an MPI stock with a Shaw barrel fitted by Shaw at .174 inch one solid hole. I have Shaw barrels that out shoot Douglas and Hart barrels of similar caliber. Shaw barrels are of higher average quality than standard factory rifle barrels from my experience.

I have built well over a dozen sporters on military actions and have yet to assemble one that would not shoot less than 1 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards.

You just need to Know what works and is feasible within cost limits. I'm now retired and no longer build rifles except for selected friends.

Brithunter · « **Reply #39 on:** December 31, 2010, 12:54:23 AM »

Now as for experience with the P-14's to answer an accusation made earlier here is a BSA Model E which according to history BSA Built between 1949-1953 on P-14's and P-17's they brought for th War department when they cleared a depot out. Seems there was several railway wagons loaded with them that were battle field pick ups from WW1 that neve got sorted. of the 14,000 or so a lot were scrap:-

On the Model E BSA straightened out the bolt handle

and filled in the hole under the rear sight.

They made five varients called Model A to Model E with E being the highest which had a new BSA manufactured barrel and a new sporting stock. Middle of the range was the Model C which had the bolt handle left as is:-

Sad shape which now has a new barrel and one a hopefully a new stock. For now it's sitting in a Parker-Hale modified sporter/target stock:-

work in progress still fitting and bedding the stock. The barrel on this is marked at the crown "Ball Burnished". Once done it will be re-polished and re-blued.

In the past I have had two military pattern P-14's never have had a US Rifle Model 1917 but as my collection is sporting all the military rifles have now gone. Thinking back I have owned a further four P-14 rifles so with the current three that's seven in all.

As for the cock on closing feature well the Swedish mauser alos has it and I have a sporterised one, this M93 Mauser by DWM also has it:-

That's a Boer Plezier by the way. Then of course the Lee Enfields also have it. Currently I have only two LE's but have had another five of them in the past so I do have a little experience of the system

. Hopefully later in 2011 we will chance to wring out the 303 Imp that I had done on a Century Arms P-14 sporter to eliminate a very tight chamber.

one eye joe · « **Reply #40 on:** December 31, 2010, 04:01:32 AM »

As to what to rebarrel your Enfield in, it depends on what you want to do with it. I believe you said you live in Ohio, or a state with restrictions on caliber. If you don't plan on hunting Africa, Alaska, or Elk/Bear out west, then the big magnums which fit the action so well probably won't interest you. If you reload, the 6.5/06 is a good candidate. If not, the .25/06 would work well.

The big action really cries for a .300 H&H or something larger. It hasn't been mentioned that Weatherby started his rifle company using the Enfield action for his chamberings. If you are wanting something to hunt with, stay with the under .30 caliber rounds. If you want something unique that will garner attention, put a big banger together.

IMO, the 1914/17 Enfield is a good action, that took the vaunted '98 action and made changes to create a better BATTLEFIELD rifle. Maybe not a better sporter, but it wasn't designed to be a sporting arm.

351 power · « **Reply #41 on:** January 13, 2011, 02:25:23 AM »

can you put in a barrel insert to change to a smaller caliber? it might be a reasonable price. impatience is the enemy of a potential project like this. take the time, maybe several yrs to spread out the cost and make the rifle something unique. i found a rough p-14 last yr and have had a great time making small repairs that make the rifle more than just a rifle to me. eventually i hope to have a pro do a far nicer job on it for me. i think cock on closing is nice for speed as you have more strength/natural movement pushing away from your body. at least it feels that way to me. the whole controlled round feeding amazes me, just the way everything is machined to function. and on another forum i was corrected that they are called a p-14 and a model 17. i enjoy mine either way.

M700 · « **Reply #42 on:** January 31, 2011, 03:16:16 AM »

I was pleased to see my son take his first bear with our 1917 .30-06, last fall:

300 yard practice prior to bear season:

The rifle was "sporterized" in the late 1940's or early 1950's after Dad returned from WWII, and is the first center-fire rifle I ever shot, about 1966 or so. Maybe ten years ago I updated it with a Bell & Carlson stock, bobbed the barrel to 21" and mounted a 6x Leupold atop the ol' rifle. It still hammers the 300 yard gong at our gun club just fine, even with the well-worn old GI barrel. These old 1917's make very good hunting rifles, rugged & accurate.

Regards, Guy

351 power · « **Reply #43 on:** January 31, 2011, 10:35:37 AM »

beautiful bear. what a great rug/hanging it will make

Brithunter · « **Reply #44 on:** February 03, 2011, 08:35:09 AM »

Quote from: Brithunter on December 31, 2010, 12:54:23 AM

Now as for experience with the P-14's to answer an accusation made earlier here is a BSA Model E which according to history BSA Built between 1949-1953 on P-14's and P-17's they brought for th War department when they cleared a depot out. Seems there was several railway wagons loaded with them that were battle field pick ups from WW1 that neve got sorted. of the 14,000 or so a lot were scrap:-

On the Model E BSA straightened out the bolt handle

and filled in the hole under the rear sight.

They made five varients called Model A to Model E with E being the highest which had a new BSA manufactured barrel and a new sporting stock. Middle of the range was the Model C which had the bolt handle left as is:-

Sad shape which now has a new barrel and one a hopefully a new stock. For now it's sitting in a Parker-Hale modified sporter/target stock:-

work in progress still fitting and bedding the stock. The barrel on this is marked at the crown "Ball Burnished". Once done it will be re-polished and re-blued.

In the past I have had two military pattern P-14's never have had a US Rifle Model 1917 but as my collection is sporting all the military rifles have now gone. Thinking back I have owned a further four P-14 rifles so with the current three that's seven in all.

As for the cock on closing feature well the Swedish mauser alos has it and I have a sporterised one, this M93 Mauser by DWM also has it:-

That's a Boer Plezier by the way. Then of course the Lee Enfields also have it. Currently I have only two LE's but have had another five of them in the past so I do have a little experience of the system . Hopefully later in 2011 we will chance to wring out the 303 Imp that I had done on a Century Arms P-14 sporter to eliminate a very tight chamber.

Well I took the project P-14 to the smith this afternoon. He didn't have quite enough to make up the run through the blueing tanks so I stripped her down and took her over to go through with my 280 AI. So hopefully next week I will get the .280 and the .303 back all new polished and deep gloss black

.

M700 · « **Reply #45 on:** February 04, 2011, 05:29:11 AM »

Looking forward to seeing photos of the rifles with their new blue jobs complete!

At one point I was so enamored with my 1917, I really considered building a three rifle 1917 battery:

A .25-06 for my mule deer, coyote & rock chuck hunting.

A .30-06 for pretty much anything, except the really big stuff.

A .35 Whelen or .375 H&H for making bigger holes.

Figured between the three of them, I'd have it covered, with three cool rifles that all handled about the same. Good enough idea that I still think about it from time to time. I have the .25-06, .30-06 and the .375, but only the .30-06 is on a 1917 action.

Regards, Guy

Brithunter · « **Reply #46 on:** February 05, 2011, 12:07:58 PM »

The P-14 with the new ball burnished barrel is now off being prepped for blueing. The new barrel was already blued but it's been laying in some warehouse for the last 50 or so years and has rust speckling under the blueing. It seems it's worse than it looks so we might have to got a more matt finish on this one. I took it over there as it seem that he didn't have quite enough parts to do to make it worthwhile. I am hoping to have them back in a week.

Saw the Monarchs receiver and it's looking good almost like chrome the barrel is still being done to remove the turning marks. That's the problem with best Blacking to a high gloss any tiny marks show up.

JeffG · « **Reply #47 on:** March 05, 2011, 06:53:31 AM »

I had one made into a 300 H&H, put a plastic stock and a scope on it...It was a sweet gun, a walking in the woods gun. But a rather strange caliber. My buddy couldn't resist giving me double what I paid for it, so now it's his sweet walking in the woods gun...

WSM264 · « **Reply #48 on:** June 24, 2011, 08:18:50 AM »

Because they are such big/heavy actions most people build big rounds on them. I made mine a 375 H&H Ack Imp. Living in OH, I would look at a 257 Wby or better yet a 264 Win Mag. If you like the 7mm you could make a 7 STW. For any of the belted mags you will need to open the boltface or buy a P14 bolt.
Generally these barrels were put on very tight. The rebarreling gunsmith should cut a relief cut into the barrel, just in front of the receiver. This will take some pressure off and the barrel will come off easier. Your used barrel won't be worth anything, but it is safer to ruin your barrel than to twist the receiver.

nicholst55 · « **Reply #49 on:** June 24, 2011, 06:23:56 PM »

Mine is going to be a .458 Lott, IF the gunsmith doing the work ever gets around to it...

Since I've spent the past three years in Korea, I'm not in too big a hurry for it, but still, it would be nice if he'd get around to it.

Frank46 · « **Reply #50 on:** June 24, 2011, 06:53:49 PM »

Chris, that's one fine looking rifle. But the finish on that fine stock is something else.
BritHunter, your enfield shows the hole filled when it was converted to a sporter, any idea on how it was done?.
Thanks Frank

Huffmanite · « **Reply #51 on:** June 25, 2011, 04:20:00 AM »

Recently sold a still military M1917 Eddystone to a gent I shoot with at range. I made the mistake of letting him fire the rifle at our 200 yard berm. I had loaded up some trail boss powder loads with 125 gr jacketed bullets for it that he used. When all his shots hit pretty darn close to the very small spot he was aiming at he made me an offer too good to ignore and I knew he'd really enjoy shooting the rifle. He took the rifle back to his bench and began shooting some Greek surplus 30-06 ammo at a paper plate on a 100 yard target. After eight rounds or so, he yelled at me to look at his target. I did. Most of his shots had grouped nicely in its center after the first 2 rounds fired. My comment to him was, " I want another $50 dollars", which caused him and the other shooters there to breakup laughing. Think he prefers the rifle over the mint 1903A3 rifle he owns. Mind you, he has custom benchrest rifles, big bores for African game hunting (in Africa right now on a hunt) and a few other military surplus rifles. Oh well, I still have 2 other 1917 sporter rifles in 30-06, one professionally done and other very much a bubba job.

Just thought I'd mention Gun Parts/Numrich does sell a short chambered 30-06 replacement barrel for the M1917 in its military contour for $104. Think its made in Belgium for them.

As others have mentioned, P1914 and M1917 actions prized for their use with large caliber cartridges. Gent I use for gunsmithing on occassions used two P1914 actions to make 404 Jefferies rifles. Used them since the p1914's bolt face and extractor for it original .303 caliber needed less work than one for the 30-06 M1917. Matter of fact, gent I sold the M1917 to had recently bought a professionally redone 1917 action for a big bore rifle he wants to build. Think he paid over $500 for this action.

As to the way barrels installed in a M1917 action. Remington's Eddystone factory, originally built to make the P1914 Enfield .303 for Britain, had a hydraulic machine for installing barrels that really cranked them hard into the receiver, making barrel removal somewhat difficult. Those M1917s made by Remington at another plant and those by Winchester had barrels that were easier to remove. And yes, the metal in an Eddystone receiver is darn hard thanks to it's heat treatment in production, leaving them not only hard but sometimes too brittle. Eddystone barrel installation process and metallurgy of receiver blamed for Eddystone receiver cracking, especially when barrel is removed. You'd better use a carbide bit to drill into a 1917 receiver and then be prepared for a difficult time tapping it too for scope mounts. Spot annealing for the holes may be needed.

For what its worth, Remington made .257 Roberts model 30 rifles, which used their sporter version of the M1917 action.

parkergunshop · « **Reply #52 on:** June 25, 2011, 05:01:26 AM »

Huffmanite,

I have drilled and tapped Eddystones, Remingtons and Winchester 1917 and P14 Endfields without difficulty. I simply start the holes with a center drill and then switch to the proper size drill. I generally drill and tap for 8-40 vs 6-48 screws to gain strength for the heavy magnums. I have rockwell test two Enfields, a 1917 Eddystone receiver tested out at rockwell C51 slightly hard, a P14 Remington tested out at a rockwell C42 which is about perfect for 2340 nickel steel. I installed a P14 Remington bolt in the 1917 Eddystone and used it for a .375 H&H magnum.. The Remington P14 became a .338 Winchester Magnum.

No change whatsoever is needed to a P14 Enfield bolt for the H&H case head use for the magnums. I used a 1917 bolt in a Winchester P14 action to build a .270 Winchester. Thanks to the coned barrel on the Enfields, with a little work shell feeding when changing chamberings is easy to handle.

My favorite scope base/ring combination for the Enfields is the Talley base/ring combo modified to use 8-40 mounting screws since it has 4 screws clamping each ring to the base and versus a one piece scope base, you have easier access to loading the magazine. I have used model 70 Winchester Redfield one piece bases also by contouring the receiver for that base and bases for the Remington model 30.

If you had a professional gunsmith do the work that I do on my Enfields you could easily wind up with $500 dollars in the action as the gent you talked about.

Scope base/rings and installation $100
Recontour receiver $200 includes modification to the bolt stop and ejector housing.
Trigger/cock on opening $150
Straighten bolt handle $ 60

Total $510 not including the cost of the action.

The Gent got a bargan.

Since I do my own work I only have the cost of the Trigger/cocking piece and Scope base/rings to deal with about $100 vs $510. Working on an Enfield is labor intensive but worth the effort in the end.

I don't bother to straighten the trigger guard, prefer the extra round capacity with the original guard unmodified.

spitfire_er · « **Reply #53 on:** July 17, 2011, 07:25:31 PM »

Anyone who thinks their is too much work or trouble to customize can send it my way. I build myself customs on the 17/14's and everytime I think about doing one on something else, I keep going back to building another enfield!

Parkergunshop,

Do you know if the eddystones were made of 2340 nickle steel as well, or are they something different?

parkergunshop · « **Reply #54 on:** July 18, 2011, 01:28:11 AM »

Spitfire,

The Eddystones as all the P14 and 1917 Enfields are made of 2340 Nickel Steel, the difference is that some not all of the Eddystones were heat treated to be a little to hard on the rockwell C scale up to Rockwell 60.

I prefer to use Remington or Winchester Actions for my custom Enfields, but have used an Eddystone after having it Rockwell tested, it became a .375 H&H with no issues noted.

Brithunter · « **Reply #55 on:** July 18, 2011, 03:36:01 AM »

Quote from: Frank46 on June 24, 2011, 06:53:49 PM

Chris, that's one fine looking rifle. But the finish on that fine stock is something else.
BritHunter, your enfield shows the hole filled when it was converted to a sporter, any idea on how it was done?.
Thanks Frank

I can only surmise by looking at it that the hole was bored out round and a plug turned to fit and sweated in place then profiled. It was down by BSA back in about 1952. I am planning on doing the same to the Century Arms P-14 sporter some time.