Tough Choice Between . . . .

[NAM70]

I'm a 700 lover. I have 3 of them and they are all very accurate rifles but the Ruger #1 international is just down right drop dead Gorgeous. That would be my choice. Some day I'm just gonna have to have one of those myself. Dave

[MGMorden]

Ahhhhh I never mentioned the reason that I dislike the 700 Remington  it's supposdely habit of breaking bolt handles off or poor grouping was not mentioned 

Guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the breaking bolt handles issue was common on the Remington 788, which is no longer in production and a completely different action than the 700 (though the 788 is a nice action regardless). 

[kevthebassman]

I have found out from my dealer that CZ will be exporting the 550 FS in September and the cost will be $729. But then I gotta order rings, too . . .

I voted for the CZ as well, I have a 527 and love it.  That said, your dealer is out of whack on his price and delivery time.  If you have a Dick's Sporting Goods store in your area, they ought to be able to order one for you for a hundred dollars less than the price your dealer quoted and get it to you sooner.

[kyelkhunter3006]

If you've got a Wal-mart nearby that still sells guns, they can get it too.  My local store actually carries the 550 American in 30-06 on the rack as an in stock item.  It's under $600, I believe.

[WyoStillhunter]

A friend of mine is a high-end gunmaker as in base price of $15K.  He builds classic-style boltguns, SXS and singleshot rifles,, SXS shotguns, stock work, etc.  In chatting with him he expressed great respect for the CZ commercial rifles, mostly based on the action, but high praise from him.

I have gravitated to Rem. Model 700 Classics one of which is 6.5x55.  That's my antelope/deer rifle.

Good luck with your choice.

[lilabner]

I thought of something useful about full stocked rifles. If you are lost in the wilderness and everything is soaking wet and you have to build a fire to survive, you can cut wood off the mannlicher stock for fire starters. The rifle will remain fully functional and if you remove enough wood, it will likely shoot better after the surgery. I'm working on butterknife bolt handles and hope to come up with something equally useful for them. I've given up on that split receiver bridge on the old Mannlichers. Steyr fixed that on the new models. I blame all this foolishness on Hollywood and their safari movies.

[jro45]

I chose the CZ 550 American Safari Mag. 458 Lott.  It has a Laminated stock. I put a Burris 1 3/4 X 5 x 30mm Scope on it. It is a Beautiful Rifle.

[Freezer]

   Bad weather is why I don't like Mannlichers!  More wood to warp.  Is this is a fair weather gun fine.  In the world I hunt in pretty guns belong in the safe on on a bench.  Mine get wet and scratched.

[MGMorden]

   Bad weather is why I don't like Mannlichers!  More wood to warp.  Is this is a fair weather gun fine.  In the world I hunt in pretty guns belong in the safe on on a bench.  Mine get wet and scratched.

Still though - a pretty wood stock with a few (or a lot of) scratches still looks worlds better than a brand new synthetic stock IMHO.  I'd rather just tote out the wood stock gun and not fret over the little dings a scratches.

That said, aesthetically, I don't really like the looks of Mannlichers myself.  There are many "classic" stock features that I adore (Schnabel forends, shadowline cheekpieces, steel butplane/gripcaps, and inletted sling swivels), but the Mannlicher forend just never caught my fancy.  Like lilabner, I'm also not a fan of the butterknife bolt handles either.  Teardrop is cool - butterknife, no.

[kevthebassman]

Still though - a pretty wood stock with a few (or a lot of) scratches still looks worlds better than a brand new synthetic stock IMHO.  I'd rather just tote out the wood stock gun and not fret over the little dings a scratches.

Some dings and dents on a rifle show that it's been loved.  Taken out hunting many a time and no doubt taken more than it's fair share of game. 

[beemanbeme]

I have a single Mark X with a full stock and a butter knife handle.  It gets a lot of attention and handling when I show it around.  In the woods, I never notice it as it comes up quickly, the trigger is crisp, and the same motion that cycles a 700's action does the same for this rifle.  That is to say, I never look at it as I bring the second round into battery. 
I haven't noticed any change in POI or warping.  I don't live in a rain forest but here in WV, I'd say the fall weather is typical of the east coast. Damp with rain and possible snow.  When I do my fall before hunt cleaning, I coat my barrel channel well with Johnson's paste wax and call it happy unless I fall in the creek. 
It doesn't shoot as tight as a nicely tuned Remington does, but then, few rifles do.  
I would hunt with this rifle for a loooooong time before I'd switch to a SS and plastic one.

[Brithunter]

I thought of something useful about full stocked rifles. If you are lost in the wilderness and everything is soaking wet and you have to build a fire to survive, you can cut wood off the mannlicher stock for fire starters. The rifle will remain fully functional and if you remove enough wood, it will likely shoot better after the surgery. I'm working on butterknife bolt handles and hope to come up with something equally useful for them. I've given up on that split receiver bridge on the old Mannlichers. Steyr fixed that on the new models. I blame all this foolishness on Hollywood and their safari movies.

Well I can only assume that I am considered foolish as I have two of the old Mannlichers although neither is full stocked as thay came to me, one the Schoenauer (pre 1924 model) model 1903 in the classic 6.5x54MS was full stocked at one time but when I acquired it it had been altered to suit a boy or small women possibly, the pistol grip has been removed and made a straight hand of slim dimentions and the stock shortened in the fors-stock and fitted with a small horn Schnabel tip and the butt shortened as well. It still retains the take down trigger guard and had the barrel band for the stock pin but the barrel ahd been relined and was badly worn. So it now wears a new Steyr barrel in 6.5x54MS and has had the barrel band removed. One day i will put aside enough funds to have a new stock made for it to finsih the restoration  it has scope mounts of the see through type but I plan on changing them.

 The other is an older Mdl 1892 in 6.5x53R and was built up as a "Best Sporting Rifle " by Rigby of London and is still in the trim it left their workshops  sighting is ny a No3 Vee express set up of stand and two leaves (100 yards then flips ups for 200 & 300 yards) with a fine bead on a small ramp. The bolts on both of these glide as if on ball bearings, the Mdl 1892 has a round bolt handle and know whilst the Schoenauer has the flat Buttern Knife. Sorry to say but most modern rifle lack the quality, fit and finish of these  but wages were much lower back then and customers expectations higher it seems.

My only full stocked sporting rifle is a 1984 BSA CF2 Stutzen in 270 Win and that was the first full bore rifle I ever brought and I still have it and it shoots fine thank you very much 

[Freezer]

   Believe me I've refinished allot of guns and made them pretty.  I refurbished my Savage 99 and on the first hunt scratched the tar and feathers out of it.  My Remington has allot of potential for refinishing but I refuse to do it.  Every scratch got there honestly and though I bought it second hand even the scratches I didn't put in it have a story to tell.   Alas I'm a utilitarian, I like lite weight fast rifles when I can get away with it and my favorite Blacktail gun is a Rem Model Seven stainless in 7TCU.   Five and a half pounds with a 2x7 Leupold scope and no recoil or muzzle blast.

[lilabner]

Brithunter, Your rifles sound lovely. They were built at a time and place when craftsmanship was at its peak and if I owned them, I would keep them in the safe, taking them out occasionally to check for rust. As a practical rifle, I have my doubts about fullstocks but think I think I've finally found a reason for them. The old military rifles were usually full stocked. During fire fights, their barrels could heat up to the point they would blister your hands without the long stock. Also, they were carried in foul weather and the stock may have helped prevent external rust. Most of us don't shoot our hunting rifles that way because we know it is a good way to shoot out a barrel by buning up the lede. We wipe down metal parts from time to time to protect them from rust. I've always thought fullstock rifles look best with a barrel 20 inches or shorter - a length that doesn't help ballistics. Then there is the matter of warping barrel channels which change point of impact. A well executed fullstock rifle can be cosmetically lovely (like a super model) but not particularly practical.

[kyelkhunter3006]

I read in an article one time that the main purpose for full-stocks on military bolt actions and on the Mannlicher rifles was for them to also serve as walking sticks in rough country.  Being full-stocked, in the winter, you didn't have to worry about your hands freezing to the barrel or the steel transmitting the cold to your hands, and in hot weather, you didn't have to be concerned about getting blistered fromm grabbing hot metal.  Also, as rifle was in your hands at all times, you could bring it into position much faster and easier than if it was slung over your shoulder.

IMHO, the old rifles are a work of art, regardless of who made them.  It was a time before CAD/CAM design, CNC machines, all of the technology that's used today.  Anyone with a small amount of training (as compared to the training of the old world gunsmiths) can program a computer with directions to cut a chuck of steel into a rifle.  But to take a piece of steel and do it all by hand (I consider even the early lathes hand work) without the eyes of the PC and robots, etc, well, it still amazes me.  The skill that the old makers had was beyond belief, and the time and patience that they put into their craft just can't be replicated today.

[Brithunter]

Ahhhh sorry kyelkhunter3006 but we will have to disagree on this:-

IMHO, the old rifles are a work of art, regardless of who made them.  It was a time before CAD/CAM design, CNC machines, all of the technology that's used today.  Anyone with a small amount of training (as compared to the training of the old world gunsmiths) can program a computer with directions to cut a chuck of steel into a rifle.  But to take a piece of steel and do it all by hand (I consider even the early lathes hand work) without the eyes of the PC and robots, etc, well, it still amazes me.  The skill that the old makers had was beyond belief, and the time and patience that they put into their craft just can't be replicated today.

 Programing a CNC machine does require skill as well as knowledge. I know as I was learning programming on the Fanuc systems before packing in work to become Dads carer. I have worked manual machines and began my engineering career working Warner Swassey capstan lathes for Monotype Corporation. I progressed through the years with other companies to work Drill, Mills and even learnt a little about tool grinding whilst setting Peg board Autos before working a normal 3 axis CNC lathe and then moving onto Machining centers and programming. One place I subbed (working Sub contract for an agency) at we were making barrel extensions for the Browning .50 cal for a Challanger tank upgrade. Also made several parts for the SA80 & SA85 assault rifles (Piece of junk that is) at another firm.

   Despite being made from a block of steel the principles of working holding is still paramount, jigs and fixtures are still required just less handling by the operator. On a Manual machine the part would be loaded to a fixture for on operation then moved to another machine or set up, the CNC machining Center can do much more in one set up. However the accuracy of the finished componant is directly tied to the accuracy capabilty of the machine, and not all are equal  and the skill of the programmer and the operator who must carefully watch for any changes in dimensions and tool wear. desipte having wear compensation it's theory and theory and practice do not often meet whan cutting metal in my experience  . Metal varies and so does the tool wear.

  Craftsmansship is still out there but it costs more than most are willing to pay, artisans like Fred Wells craft superb custom rifles in the US. In Ferlach a whole town is built around custom guns and superb works come from it every year. Here in the UK we have men like Ron Wharton of Rigby's and Norman Clark of Rugby who turn out excellent work however a Ron Wharton Rigby style Mauser will cost around £7,000 GBP ($13,000 US) funny thing is Bill Clinton has one as does GW Bush. There are photos of them recieiving them on Ron's workshop wall, sadly I now live 200 miles from Ron's  as he was an invaluble source of parts, help and advice even for the poor like me. It was though him that I obtained the new Steyr made barrel for my Mdl 1903 Shoenauer  and he also arranged it's fitting being too busy with custom rifles to do the job himself.

The poorer standards of fit and finish in main stream production rifles of today can be laid squarely at the feet of two groups, the accountants who want to make more profits for the shareholders and to ensure their bonuses and the customers who demand cheaper rifles. How often when a question is asked about which rifle to buy on these very forums is the answer given to but such and such a make becasue it only costs $xxx US  that fact that the new owner then has to pay a gunsmith to work over the trigger or fit a replacment aftermarket one  bed the action or do it them selves and often re-crown and blue print the action  when if they had brought more wisely this would not have been required, or if the customer demanded form the manufacturer rifles which didn't need a re-build to make the right in the first place! But of course that would mean spending more on the initial purchase would it not?

[jro45]

I would take the CZ 550. They are a fine rifle.