Don't Blow Your House Up!

[seacoastartillery]

     This is the entrance door to a powder magazine that Mike and I ran into in Georgia.   Does anyone besides Don Krag know where this one is located? 




     Back home in Colorado, our powder storage is not quite this fancy.  We use a simple, but effective container, a 20MM Ammo Box.  The thick steel of these containers provides adequate protection from penetration and sparks or flames and the rubber seal makes them excellent moisture barriers.  We are still using powder we bought in 1979.  Where you store your container is a secondary consideration.  We prefer a location away from the house.  Check your local fire code to be in compliance with your local rules and regs. 

     Can you share your preference for powder storage with our newer members and quests?  It may just save them serious injury or worse if powder is stored casually without much thought.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

[KABAR2]

I seem to remember something early on about the British having quite a few Magazines go boom during lightning storms these were some of the first buildings to be fitted with lightning rods....... something to think about when storing powder in metal containers..............
I do the same, 20MM ammo can but lined with an inch of sheet rock, should there be a fire it should give some protection against the heat for a while.....

[Evil Dog]

20MM ammo can works well for me too... only have a half inch sheet rock lining though.  Maybe should bulk it up to 1" or more.

[Terry C.]

Ditto on the 20mm can, except mine is lined with ½" plywood.


CORRECTION: I just checked and mine is a 30mm can, not 20mm.

30mm cans are wider.

[Artilleryman]

The top should be weaker than the sides so that the force of the explosion goes up instead of in all directions.

[Max Caliber]

Mike and Tracy - Is that magazine located at Ft. Jackson near Savannah?

[Rickk]

it's not a modern magazine... or at least it is not a current ATF regulation magazine. Is it old or new constuction?

My wife's great grandfather had a legal magazine back in the 30's. It was still standing in the 60's when my buddies and I found it, still filled with dynamite. The cops got involved and blew the magazine and it's contents up right there.

Anyway, it was a legal magazine when it was built, and had at least some features  similar to the one in the picture.

However, nowadays (as was even back in the 1930's apparently) it would have had to had a metal or masonary covered exterior. Great Grampa's magazine was wood, but it was covered with tin.

The lock requirements have changed quite a bit since even the 30's. Great Grampas's magazine had a simple hasp and padlock on it (easy for some 13 year olds to get into for sure ;-). To be legal now it would have to have at least 2 hardened locks with the shackles covered in some way to prevent sawing. I don't actually even see a locking location anywhere on the door in the pix.

[seacoastartillery]

     Max,  you are correct!  I bet you have visited Fort Clinch, Fort McAllister and Fort Pulaski as well.  This most unusual powder magazine door is located inside the second system part of this fort which has a small, separate magazine building as a lot of them do.  Started in 1808, this fort was changed later to incorporate some third system improvements.  Some of the unique things to see here are the final resting place of the CSS Georgia, sunk in front of the fort to prevent capture by Federal troops, an extremely unique Tidal Tunnel which lets Savannah River water in during high tide which provides water for the moat, a 32 pdr. seacoast gun which is fired for visitors from it's wood, front-pintle, barbette carriage located on the terraplein.  However, the most unique artifact on display there is a huge piece of a columbiad's breech which blew up during initial testing at Ft. Jackson before the war even started.  It was this piece which came close to killing the south's most revered General, Robert Lee, while he was still a United States Army officer!
     
     Lots of good ideas here for people to use.  So take that loose can or two off the shelf where you store your jars of nuts and bolts and "extra" lawn mower parts and place them in a sturdy, spark proof, humidity proof container and gain a little "peace-of-mind".  It's just like finding a good safe place to cast lead bullets.  We used to cast a bunch of "big banana" bullets for our .45-70s back in the 70s and 80s.  I found a good spot in my friend's house next to a garage door in a walk-out basement.  Concrete floor, good ventilation, metal table.  Perfect!  Right?  NO IT WAS NOT!  Forgot to check overhead for leaking or "sweating" water pipes.  One "Lead Volcano" eruption taught me to check for ALL SAFETY considerations the next time.  So, store your powder safely; you'll be glad you did.  If someone has another good way to store BP, please post it.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

[Ex 49'er]

I store mine in one of the round 13" high 'replacement sample powder tanks' from WW2. The tank
is stored in a locked safe. The tank will hold 4 cans and is air & water tight. I keep my fuse in one of the smaller tanks that is 7" high. Works for me.

[Gun Runner]

I use a couple of old refridgarators to store my powder and primers in. They sit outside of my smal loading shed and are shadeded  most of te day. Have powder in there from 1980 that I use once in a while and have never had a problem with it. Also use one for black  powder and pyrodex.

Gun Runner

[dan610324]

I use an fireproof safe , used by my local bank before me . they closed down a few small offices in this area . I got 7 pcs of them now 
I had them for 10 years . price for an new similar safe today is approximately 21 500 us dollars

outside meassurements
width 23"
height 46"
deep 33"

inside meassurements
width 13"
height 25"
deep 20"

weight 1800 kilo  (approximately 4000 pounds)
fire resistant for 2 hours
it got the highest burglar protection points ever produced by an Norwegian manufacturer .
266 points by insta classification
overkill ??  yes of course , but it was for free , I couldnt even negotiate for the price   
but it wasnt fun to move them 
as I always say  "better safe then sorry"

SEE CLASSIFIEDS IF YOU ARE INTERESTED

[Double D]

Are you gentlemen aware of GOEX's campaign to have Black powder reclassed as a propellent in the same class as smokless powder.

When I store powder I try to store it in small quantities  in several different locations around the shop.  Although i am aware of the hazardous nature of powder there are other chemicals around the house that worry me even  more, propane tanks, paint and cans of gasoline come to mind first. 

The scariest thing in my house is the primers for reloading.  I don't keep those things in the same room as powder or any volatile substance.  I never keep more than 5000 in one location.

[Victor3]

 I keep a few pounds of Goex in.....Goex powder cans. I don't believe that this small quantity would be more safely stored (if fire is the main concern) without resorting to an outside-the-building magazine. They're thin steel and well sealed against moisture and sparks. I keep them in separate locations about the garage away from heat sources. Storing them together in a tightly sealed container (like an ammo can) would certainly not become less of a 'bomb' if there were a fire.

 IMHO, a sheetrock-lined, cam-locked top ammo can is a false sense of security considering the temperatures generated during a typical house fire; best to just let it go 'poof' in the OEM container rather than contain it in a sturdy sealed can that might explode violently (maybe just as a firefighter gets close enough to extinguish the fire).

 I think a practical solution might be one of the small fire safes designed for documents, stored on a slab floor with the lid lightly (not tightly) secured in case the powder does ignite...

[dan610324]

what temperature is needed to have the BP to selfignite ??

[KABAR2]

  there are other chemicals around the house that worry me even  more, propane tanks, paint and cans of gasoline come to mind first. 

Yes I can attest to the fact that there are more hazzardous things than black powder....... when I have time I will relay the story that goes with the photo if you like..........

[Victor3]

 KABAR2 - please share your experience.

 As Maxwell Smart would say - "The old mapp gas cylinder in the campfire trick, eh?"

 

[KABAR2]

This happend at work about 6 years ago, I was heating a piece of steel with said torch when I got a strong smell of gas
from the torch so I turned the torch off and flames erupted  from between the tank and the torch head having an uncontrolled burn with a torch is not a real happy place to be....... I quickly moved to the garage door opened it and dropped it down into the loading dock closed and bolted the garage door,
I called my supervisor and informed him of the situation, he of course said call the fire department, also while all this is going on the 4:30 buzzer sounds which means everyone would be heading out the back door to their cars, so while on the phone with 911 I have to keep people from going out the back door! Phone conversation went something like this: "911" hello could you send the fire dept to (address) I have an uncontrolled burn on a hand held torch which is going to go boom probably before they can get here....... At which point there was a very loud explosion, the garage door had two of its rollers pushed out of their tracks and all the steel I had against the back wall fell over, other than the garage door (an easy fix) there was no damage to the building or peoples cars out back, when things like this happen they happened fast! I forced my self to stay calm and think, all while holding a flaming bomb that could go off any second!  I dropped it in the loading dock which had two concrete walls on either side and was 4 ft below grade, this contained the most of the blast effect, it was the best place I could put it. The fire dept. showed up looked down into the loading dock at the remains of the torch that still had one little flame from burning plastic and said to the rookie with a school type fire extinguisher "you want to put that out"......... I promised my employer that I wouldn't blow anything else up for the rest of the year........ 
 

[dan610324]

doesn't you Americans have any safety equipment ??

now I'm in the situation again when I dint know the English words , but I hope you still understand what I mean .

here in Sweden it absolutely illegal to use acetylene or similar without having an selfshutting valve connected between hose and bottle .
if your equipment had such an device that could never happened .
its an very cheap life insurance .
hope your employer learned something from this , this time you was lucky .

[KABAR2]

Dan,

This was a hand held torch where the tank is attached directly to the tank, 
oxy-acetylene rigs with hoses use a back check valve which is what you are talking
about. Small torch's such as these are not required to have them. I took the torch
head off the bottle latter and discovered that the seal was bad, Mental note to self
always check seal before installing new tank. 

Sorry Mike & Tracy if I've pulled this way off topic.

[dan610324]

cant be much more on topic , headline is : dont blow your house up!
its not only BP that is dangerous .

   BUT ISNT IT ANYONE HERE WHO CAN TELL WHAT TEMPERATURE NEEDED BEFORE BP SELF IGNITES

[intoodeep]

dan610324

This is what I found from an MSDS sheet online. See the link below for more details.

Auto ignition temperature Approx. 464°C (867°F)

http://www.ocsresponds.com/ref/msds/msds-bp.pdf

Hope this helps.

[seacoastartillery]

     Oh my goodness, KABAR2, you certainly have led us down the primrose path.  We are so far off topic now, how can we possibly find our way back to safe storage of black powder?      It certainly was a good story though and it sounds like you did exactly the right thing when the problem appeared.

     We just brought this topic up so that we all could think about our own storage practices and the relative safety of those suggestions.  I saw what a one lb. can of FFg would do when ignited UNCONFINED under an empty 55 gallon drum set on two 4X4s back in my Army days.  It exploded with a huge thump and boosted that 60 pound drum over 40 feet straight up!  The can of 3031 smokeless propellant did nothing except burn with a brief yellow plume of flame.  No pop and no movement of the drum whatsoever.  So if a piece of angle-iron propped up against a shop wall tips over onto your can of powder you have to wonder,  "what happens next?"

Probably Nothing, but you have to wonder,

M&T

[Tropico]

I hope I get this written out right?..., On our beach (Philippines) the water line coming down the highway in front of the  beach has water 8 hours a day . We are building a water tower. Basically 4 legs (Concrete and steel) 14 feet high to the bottom of the 1000 gallon water tank. This will allow the resort water 24 hours a day. With in the confines of the 4 legs at ground level we will enclose with concrete a 12 x 12 room 8 feet tall with a tin roof ... Strong wall and an easy to blow roof in the event of an explosion., also with the 1000 gallons above it will be plumbed with a sprayer into each corner of the room ..., just in case. (Yes the 1000 gallon tank will be concrete and molded to look like a Gigantic powder keg .    We can keep our Powder here for th Sea-Wall Cannons and for the Ships Cannons.

[seacoastartillery]

     This idea seems really professional to me, Rich.  The distance between the  top of the magazine, 8 feet, and the bottom of the concrete water tank, 14 feet, sounds like the key element here and the very light roof construction.  The light roof gets you an over-all lower pressure and all that air space above the magazine structure, gives you a very, very large area for venting.  While I'm not an engineer and would encourage you to consult one, your design sounds good based on what I learned from the head E.O.D (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) guy at my Army post who I hunted with often back in those days.  My hat's off to you for pursuing your Scuba Dive Resort with such vigor and passion!  Mike and I both hope you are blessed with success in this exciting venture.

Regards,

Tracy

[Webleys]

     Oh my goodness, KABAR2, you certainly have led us down the primrose path.  We are so far off topic now, how can we possibly find our way back to safe storage of black powder?      It certainly was a good story though and it sounds like you did exactly the right thing when the problem appeared.

     We just brought this topic up so that we all could think about our own storage practices and the relative safety of those suggestions.  I saw what a one lb. can of FFg would do when ignited UNCONFINED under an empty 55 gallon drum set on two 4X4s back in my Army days.  It exploded with a huge thump and boosted that 60 pound drum over 40 feet straight up!  The can of 3031 smokeless propellant did nothing except burn with a brief yellow plume of flame.  No pop and no movement of the drum whatsoever.  So if a piece of angle-iron propped up against a shop wall tips over onto your can of powder you have to wonder,  "what happens next?"

Probably Nothing, but you have to wonder,

M&T

I think that would qualify as at least partially contained.

I took a one lb plastic bottle of Schuetzen fffg, fused it and set it off in the back 40 to see what it would do in a fire. All I got was a low boom, a 3 to 4 ft diameter fireball and a split bottle. I don't know what a whole 25 lb case would do and it's too expensive to find out.