Author Topic: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time  (Read 3929 times)

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Offline Cheesehead

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FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« on: June 26, 2008, 05:12:07 PM »
I took my Savage out to the range last weekend and did some shooting, after a series of failed attempts for various reasons. I have a TC 1x 32mm scope on it since Wisconsin law dictates this as maximum. I set up for 50 yards. Got it dialed in with some Hornady 250 xtp's with a recommended charge of AA 5744. Now I was ready for the real test, the 330 grain cast wheel weight bullets from a Lyman mold. Several groups between 1-2 inches were the results. I am pleased with the performance of these home made bullets. I use MMP orange sabot for these .458 bullets.

I also had good results with Bull-x cast .452 bullet in a Harvestor crush rib sabot. These push down the barrel very easy. Again using AA5744 with a recommended charge produced good accuracy results, 1-2 inches at 50 yards.

My next outing will include 100 yard targets and a chronograph. Can't wait.

Maybe I will clean the rifle tommmorow or the next day! :D

Cheese
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance.

Offline yooper77

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2008, 07:20:00 AM »
Cheesehead ,

You got it covered using the T/C 1x32 scope for the Wisconsin 7 day muzzleloader season, but you cannot use AA 5744 double base smokeless rifle power during that season.

See the attached link.  http://dnr.wi.gov/org/es/enforcement/safety/muzzleqa.htm

For the purpose of the special muzzleloader season, what is the definition of a muzzleloader?

Any .45 caliber (or larger) smooth bore or .40 caliber (or larger) rifled bore muzzleloading firearm discharged from the shoulder having a solid breech plug attached with threads, capable of being loaded only from the muzzle and using black powder or black powder substitute. Inline muzzleloaders are legal.

yooper77

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2008, 10:29:27 AM »
I will consider AA5744 a black powder substitite.

Cheese
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance.

Offline yooper77

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2008, 11:15:17 AM »
AA 5744 is a substitute powder for use in your Savage 10ml rifle, but I don’t think it’s a substitute in place of real black powder or true substitute black powder for hunting during Wisconsin’s 7 day muzzleloader season.  I would check with your game wardens if you are truly legal, before actually using it.
 

AA 5744 is a double base smokeless rifle propellant.
http://www.accuratearms.com/data/5744.htm

yooper77

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2008, 01:53:37 PM »
I do appreciate your concern, but like I said earlier, I will use AA5744 as a substitute. If the DNR wants to make an issue based on semantics, so be it.

Cheese
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2008, 06:10:59 PM »
I do appreciate your concern, but like I said earlier, I will use AA5744 as a substitute. If the DNR wants to make an issue based on semantics, so be it.

Cheese

I agree with you there Cheese... ;D
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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2008, 06:27:53 PM »
When that officer walks away with your camp, gear and rifle while you stand there with a heavy ticket in your hand. Will you still consider it a blackpowder sub?  I know in Colorado rule book it states No smokeless.  If your rule book does not say this, then yes i think it would be fine to use but IMO, its not worth the risk. A phone call to clear things up is a hell of a lot cheaper.

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2008, 06:56:22 PM »
I have read the rules and stand by my interpretation. There is no "no smokeless" statement.

Cheese
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance.

Offline Lane

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2008, 07:37:48 PM »
I have read the rules and stand by my interpretation. There is no "no smokeless" statement.

Cheese

I'm with ya on this one Cheese :) ;)

Offline yooper77

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2008, 08:49:52 PM »
It doesn't need to say no smokeless powder, because smokeless powder isn't a black powder substitute.  At least that is my interpretation.

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Offline Cheesehead

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2008, 02:03:08 AM »
OK. Back to the origanal thread, The 330 Lyman cast bullet is a hollow point configuration and looks promising. I plan on casting some from pure lead as compared to wheel weights. Then some more range work at 100 yards with this bullet and shooting into some type of media to see if it will expand.

Cheese
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Offline Cheesehead

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2008, 10:11:48 AM »
Here is another guys blend of opinion and fact about what smokeless propellent is,


What is the Difference between Black, Pyrodex, Triple Seven, and Smokeless Powders?

By Randy Wakeman



That is a question that often comes up at this time of year, and understandably so. Though classified by the DOT as smokeless propellants, most muzzleloaders can be safely fired with black powder, Pyrodex, Triple Seven, Black Mag3, Pyrodex pellets, and Triple Seven Pellets. Only the Savage 10ML-II was designed to be used with all of these propellants, just like other muzzleloaders, plus certain recommended nitrocellulose (smokeless) powders. Smokeless powders are non-corrosive, offer less recoil, and leave very little residue. Here is a quick look at the basics.

Black powder is an old propellant, formed from a blend of natural ingredients: sulfur, potassium nitrate, and charcoal. Classified as an explosive, few muzzleloaders use true black powder these days because of limited availability. The energy produced by black powder in small arms use varies by manufacturer. "Swiss" black powder, for example, is considered a hotter propellant than "Goex" brand.

Black powder, Pyrodex, Black Mag3, and Triple Seven loose powder are all in the category of deflagrating powders. "Deflagrating" is just a fancy way of saying "fast-burning." These powders burn just as fast as they can as long as they can. Their grain size controls the burn rate. FFFF black powder is very, very easy to ignite; that is why the common application is as pan powder for flintlocks. FFF black powder is used often in .45 caliber or smaller bore muzzleloaders and sidelocks, FF is the standard for .50 caliber inline muzzleloaders. The "F" designation is just the screen size used in manufacture and the resultant grain size (coarseness).

In black powder the fuel is carbon; we are just burning charcoal. Black powder is horribly inefficient, as only about 50% of its mass turns into gas. The rest is solid residue that is forced out the muzzle as white smoke or left in the bore as corrosive fouling crud.

Pyrodex is the most common "black powder substitute." It is really the only synthetic black powder "performance" substitute in common use. By performance substitute, I refer to a charge of loose powder measure by volume. A 100 grain volumetric charge of Pyrodex RS (Rifle/Shotgun) is very close in performance to Goex FFg black powder.

There are differences, though, and this is where things get a bit convoluted. Pyrodex is bulkier, another way of saying "less dense." By weight, it is more powerful than Goex black powder. But, the traditional method of measuring black powder is indeed by volume, so in that sense it is a black powder performance substitute.

By actual weight, it is not the same. 100 grains measured by volume of Goex FFg is about 101.3 grains by weight. 100 grains measured by volume of Pyrodex RS is about 72.5 grains by weight. Pyrodex is where confusion can start to set in, as the standard "F" designations of powder coarseness start to go out the window.

Pyrodex "Select," formulated for use in muzzleloading rifles, is touted as an "extremely consistent" grade of Pyrodex, and has the largest grain size of them all. It is even farther away from black powder by actual weight; 100 grains volumetric equals about 63.9 grains by actual weight.

Pyrodex, though man-made and with a variety of additives, still has sulfur in it and is corrosive. It is classified as a smokeless powder by the DOT, and bears little resemblance to traditional black powder in actual weight or grain size. It is a bit harder to ignite than black powder, and is safer to handle, use, and store due to this fact. It is also not as impact-sensitive as is true black powder. Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive as is black powder, and is sold at many chain stores due to this fact.

Triple Seven, Black Mag3, and Goex Clear Shot get us into an area where the muzzleloading industry has drifted into double-talk, sidestepping, and confusion. These propellants have nothing in common with true black powder at all; chemically, neither sulfur nor charcoal is present. They are still carbon-burning propellants, though, of the deflagrating (fast-burning) type. They are measured volumetrically, but only Goex Clear Shot can be considered a black powder performance substitute.

Triple Seven and Black Mag3 are far hotter (or more energetic) than good old black powder, and produce higher velocities and pressures. Still burning carbon, the carbon-based fuel burned here is from the sugar family, not from wood (charcoal). These propellants are actually far more modern than nitrocellulose based powders. Triple Seven and Black Mag3 only become available in the 21st Century.

Referring to Triple Seven and Black Mag3, the only thing that they have in common with black powder is they can be volumetrically measured with old black powder measures. They are not as corrosive as black powder (Black Mag3 claims to be non-corrosive), have little in common chemically, and produce more pressure, heat, and velocity than black powder. They are considered smokeless powder by the DOT, and should be used with caution in older muzzleloaders, as there is no way that 100 grains volumetric charge of Triple Seven or Black Mag3 can be considered "the same" as traditional black powder. They are still relatively inefficient propellants, leaving behind close to 50% of their mass as non-combusted, solid residue.

Referring to Triple Seven, that 50% unburned material is substantially less fouling than black powder for the simple reason that a 100 grain volumetric charge of Triple Seven, though it produces more energy than black powder, is far less by actual weight. More directly stated, you still have about 50% of the garbage left, but you start with less garbage to burn in the first place.

Pyrodex and Triple Seven pellets are the area where the snake oil sales pitch starts to sizzle. Sold as black powder equivalents of "pelletized powder," they have nothing to do with traditional black powder. The pelletized powder lingo is wishful thinking, as pellets are just pellets. This type of tortured language adds more confusion to the mix. If you take two tablets of aspirin and call me in the morning, you have taken two aspirin tablets, not "tabletized acetylsalicylic acid." Sometimes pellets are just pellets, ask any rabbit, and a cigar is just a cigar. Let's talk about what they really are, and what they do.

Pyrodex pellets are a sophisticated rocket fuel type propellant, more related to an Estes rocket engine than black powder. They consist of a black igniter portion on one side of the base; although called an "ignition accelerant," this is nothing more than good old black powder. They are, of course, not volumetrically measured, and they do not burn at all like loose powder. A Pyrodex pellet burns progressively down the bore, from the base in, from the outside in, and--due to the hole in the center--from the inside out.

Though not recommended by Hodgdon, most inline manufacturers currently allow and promote the use of "three pellet loads" for velocities far in excess of what loose black powder or Pyrodex can possibly achieve. How fast? One load out of the 2004 Knight catalog shows a muzzle velocity of 2417 fps, another is 2639 fps! These velocities can actually be bettered in a longer barreled gun, like the Thompson/Center Omega.

Triple Seven pellets, used in three-pellet configuration, actually produce a bit more muzzle velocity. Where Pyrodex pellets are pressed into shape from black powder and Pyrodex RS, Triple Seven pellets are made from straight Triple Seven, and are harder to ignite. For what it is worth, I've personally found Pyrodex pellet loads to be more consistent, and more accurate.

A word of caution is in order. Hodgdon does not condone the use of more than 100 grains of their Pyrodex or Triple Seven pellets in .45 or .50 caliber muzzleloaders, and they clearly, loudly proclaim that warning with every box of pellets sold. Several people have asked, "What pressures do three pellets produce?" Well, there is no finite answer. Much is necessarily contingent on projectile weight, type, and caliber of rifle.

I shoot a few flaming pellets into the air on the 4th of July. The kids get a kick out of it, but as there is no projectile there is little pressure. Lyman Ballistic Laboratories has published three Pyrodex pellet-powered saboted bullet loads that develop 27,000 psi out of a 22" test barrel; Triple Seven pellets can produce more pressure than that.

Not all inline muzzleloaders have been tested with Triple Seven pellets, and it is a matter of public record that the casual take "three pellets and call me in the morning" approach can lead to an immediate trip to the emergency room. There are a few makes and models of inline muzzleloaders that have been extensively tested with three pellet loads, and I'll mention them right here: current production Knight Disc Rifles, Thompson Omega and Encore rifles, and the Savage 10ML-II.

Smokeless Powder, the original black powder substitute, became commercially available in the last decade of the 19th Century. As you've read above, the path to "black powder substitutes" is a convoluted, twisty one. What is called a "black powder substitute" has very little to do with the actual and factual, and a lot more to do with who has what to sell.

Only the Savage 10ML-II has been proven safe with nitrocellulose based smokeless powder, as opposed to solid fuel or deflagrating style DOT classified smokeless black powder substitutes like Triple 7 or Black Mag3 mentioned above. Folks are a bit confused about smokeless powder use in the Savage 10ML-II, but not nearly as bewildered as they are about the black powder / pellet / synthetic black powder substitute mess already described.

 
There is a myth that "smokeless powder" means "high pressure." That statement is sheer nonsense, borne out of complete ignorance. Most all shotshells today, of course, are powered by nitrocellulose based smokeless powder. Shotshells are mentioned as the current plastic wads used in today's shotshell ammo serve the same function as a sabot in a muzzleloader, that being of taking up windage in the bore and providing an effective gas seal. Note that these pressures, all nitrocellulose smokeless powder generated, are but a fraction of the pressures generated in today's inline muzzleloaders.

For comparison, please note that Lyman Ballistic Laboratories independent data shows that just 100 grains of Pyrodex RS fired by a CCI #11 cap produces 22,600 PSI when pushing a saboted 240 grain Hornady XTP bullet through a 22" test barrel.

The Savage 10ML-II is the only significant muzzleloader on the market that can use all the black powder substitutes mentioned. It was designed to use nitrocellulose-based powders from its inception.

The benefits are easy enough for even me to understand: a propellant such as Accurate Arms 5744 is economical, non-corrosive, and extremely clean burning compared to all the other "substitutes" mentioned. It offers far less recoil for a given saboted projectile and muzzle velocity than does Pyrodex or Triple Seven powder or pellets.

Many people have asked me why that is. The reason is simple, and two fold.

First, deflagrating propellants burn as fast as they can as quick as they can, resulting in a very sharp jolt of a primary recoil pulse. Accurate Arms 5744 burns progressively, a far smoother pressure curve. This results in a push to the shoulder, rather than a punch.

Second, as we previously mentioned, roughly half of the carbon-based propellant mass is left behind as solid residue. This inert residue must necessarily be pushed out of the bore by gas. From a recoil standpoint, this solid unburned residue is considered part of the ejecta. Approximately half of the carbon-based powder charge can be added to the bullet and sabot weight to calculate free recoil. With Accurate Arms 5744, there is no such mass of fouling, as virtually all the propellant converts to gas. Therefore, there is much less weight of additional ejecta to push out the barrel, and less recoil as a result.

I'm taking the liberty of mentioning Accurate Arms 5744 smokeless powder for a reason. It is the favorite propellant of the inventor of the Savage 10ML-II, Henry Ball, and is currently my favorite as well. It actually has more things in common with black powder from a usage standpoint than do Pyrodex or Triple Seven pellets. It can easily be volumetrically measured with great accuracy. (Not using a black powder measure, but using a Lee 3.4 cc smokeless powder measure.) It also is a powder, not a solid fuel.

The smokeless powder myth of "high pressure" has been disproved, and the notion that smokeless powder cannot be volumetrically measured is also wrong. All commercial smokeless ammunition is loaded by volume, not by weight, and anyone that has ever seen or used any of the popular MEC shotshell reloading presses knows that the powder is dropped by volume, not by weight.

Richard Lee, of course, has known the convenience of smokeless powder volumetric loading for decades, and has made it available to the masses with his "Lee Dipper Set." Perhaps I am being a bit redundant, but I must mention again that the Savage 10ML-II is the only muzzleloader in which you can safely use Accurate Arms 5744, or any other smokeless powder.

The fracas over smokeless powder in muzzleloading is silly. Perhaps it is due to the hyperbole driven marketing of smokepoles, but "smokeless" absolutely does not mean any type of smokeless in the Savage, either, nor just any charge. There are only four powders approved by Savage Arms, as of this writing, for use in the 10ML-II. Do not be confused just because some 200 different nitrocellulose powders are currently available. You don't use just any smokeless powder in a shotshell or rifle cartridge application, either.

The message is simple: use propellants approved by a quality muzzleloading arms manufacturer and you'll have no problems, provided you follow the rules of good reloading practices. If you are a muzzleloader, let there be no mistake, you are a reloader. All the freedom and all the responsibility that goes with reloading goes with muzzleloading.

In conclusion I'll just mention what "black powder substitutes" I've had the best luck with during the testing of some fifty different muzzleloaders over the last couple of years alone. 100 grains of Triple 7 FFg by volume has more or less been my preferred load for most quality inlines to date, including Austin & Halleck, Knight, and Thompson rifles. Pyrodex pellets have shown themselves to be more accurate than their Triple 7 counterparts. The Savage 10ML-II does well with both Hodgdon products, but Accurate Arms 5744 has been an easy choice due to delightfully soft recoil, extreme accuracy, and no necessity for immediate maintenance.

Whatever your choice, Pyrodex, Black Mag3, Triple Seven, or smokeless powder (in the Savage 10ML-II only), just let your gun tell you what combination it likes. Hopefully, this article has shed a little light on what today's inline muzzleloading propellants are really all about.

Congratulate yourself! If you've hung in there this long with me you've demonstrated far more interest and caring about your sport than most would be bothered with, and I thank you.



Cheese
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2008, 10:28:19 AM »
Dang! Sometimes i hate being moderator of this forum!  ;D Can't speak my mind about ol' randy wakeman.  It's not good, lets just say that.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2008, 12:04:08 PM »
Say what you want to about Randy, but he has a lot of muzzleloader knowledge.
Yes he seems to be bias on the stuff he uses, but he has put out a lot of useful information also.
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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2008, 12:29:43 PM »
If you actually get any helpful info from him when you email him, you got lucky.

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2008, 12:47:23 PM »
Old Randy is the one hocking the Savage, so of course he's going to have a lot good to say about it.  I bet you some ad writer for Savage wrote that thing up for him.

Now that's not to say that the Savage isn't a fine piece of equipment.  I've never even seen one and am not likely to, so I couldn't say one way or the other.  I know I'll trust the word of our members here a lot more than I'd trust some guy on the payroll like Randy.  He's just another salesman like Jim Shockley and all these other "professional hunter" clowns.

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2008, 12:54:27 PM »
Randy sez,

All black powder substitutes are classified as smokeless propellants.

Cheese

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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2008, 01:46:10 PM »
yeah i'd like to see someone shoot that smokeless pyrodex and leave it in the bore for a few months.

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2008, 01:49:02 PM »
Its a DOT thing.

Cheese
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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2008, 02:02:51 PM »
So Randy said Subs such as Pyrodex are considered Smokeless?


Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2008, 02:07:00 PM »
Mr. Wakeman is very opinionated, that's for sure.  He's very critical about everything he writes about, and he usually will find something, no matter how small is it, to slam about a product.  I think that he's a bit hypocritical as well, if you've read enough of his stuff.  BUT, he does have a lot of knowledge to offer, it's all in how you use it and interpret it for your own use.  The only ML's that he's "liked" IMHO is the Knight Disc Elite, the Encore, and the Savage.  He hates anything with CVA, Traditions, or any other rifle that's even associated with those companies, and he's on the fence about most other American rifles.  There's a lot of his stuff on Chuck Hawks website (which I think that most of us have been to, for some reason or the other.) 

Speaking of another Randy that's big into writing and muzzleloading, Mr. Randy Smith, I find that his articles are usually well written and unbiased toward any particular company, and instead concentrate on the specific item he's writing about.  He's got some articles on Chuck Hawks site, as well and being published in various magazines over the years.  Randy Smith has used Traditions products quite a bit and isn't ashamed to tell you the truth as he sees it.  If you want some good honest info from a straight up writer, he's one of the best.  I wish he was published more widely in the hunting and shooting mags.

Cheese, I admire your stance on the regs in your area.  I, myself, would probably check with the DNR, but that's because I can't afford to mess up and lose a bunch of equipment, to be honest.  If I wasn't worried about that, I'd share the same feelings that you do. 

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2008, 02:09:24 PM »
So Randy said Subs such as Pyrodex are considered Smokeless?



Just because the manufacturer doesn't deem it smokeless hasn't got anything to do with the DOT regulations, as it states on the bottle.  I guess it depends on whether your state is going to use the maker's designation or the DOT's regulations to determine what type of powder it is.   :D

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2008, 02:11:05 PM »
Randy is right, the DOT does classify it as smokeless.

Cheese
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance.

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2008, 02:26:16 PM »
Yeah, but the DOT isn't likely to have an agent out at your favorite hunting spot with the rule book in his hand and a chip on his shoulder.  If you want to be sure, talk to your conservation department.  If you just don't care what they say and intend on using whatever you want, well that's just fine by me too.

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2008, 03:39:35 PM »
This is what the Wisconsin law states.


 For the purpose of the special muzzleloader season, what is the definition of a muzzleloader?

Any .45 caliber (or larger) smooth bore or .40 caliber (or larger) rifled bore muzzleloading firearm discharged from the shoulder having a solid breech plug attached with threads, capable of being loaded only from the muzzle and using black powder or black powder substitute. Inline muzzleloaders are legal.


Cheese
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2008, 04:00:11 PM »
black powder or black powder sub  normally is pointing to our well known subs such as pyro, triple 7, bh209,APP and some others out there.  How many muzzle loaders are on the market that can shoot smokeless? Not many, they make up a small percentage of muzzle loading sales.

If you'd like to supply me with a phone number to a local DNR, I would be more than happy to make the phone call for you and get the legal info for you.

Wisconsin i take it?

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2008, 04:14:02 PM »
I am planning on taking the written text provided on the web sight at face value. I am not interested in an individuals personal version of that.

Cheese
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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2008, 04:16:58 PM »
 ::) boy some people.



 Dont worry,I found the DNR websiteandi emailed DNR with the question and will forward it here.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2008, 01:31:34 AM »
Cheesehead, I read them the same way you do. In some States it specifies no smokeless powder to be used in muzzleloader's. But it looks like to me, your State does not specify it. In the Savage, smokeless powder is a substitute for black powder, in Delaware they redid the law to state, whatever the manufacture recommended as a substitute was legal. So there for making smokeless legal in Delaware. The reason for the law change was, because we had the same law written as your State, and people were using smokeless powder in there Savage ML's, so the DNR decided that they were not enforcing no smokeless and figured they would just change the law  to eliminate any future problems in the field. (Smart thinking on there part IMO)
95% of the DNR officials could not identify smokeless powder from black powder, I know I don't carry my bottle of powder in the woods with me, I have them in vile's.

bigblock455, why are you letting this bother you so much??? Cheese is a big boy, and I am sure can make a decision for himself.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2008, 03:19:47 AM »
Forcing Wisconsin to make a decision on this could create a problem that did not exist before.

On the Randy Wakeman stuff, he is not smokeless, that's for sure.

But I agree with Cheesehead & it would have been better to leave well enough alone in my view.
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