Author Topic: FINALLY, Savage 10ml range time (Read 3939 times)

yooper77 · « **Reply #30 on:** June 30, 2008, 03:49:10 AM »

I read Savage FAQ for muzzleloaders and seem to draw a definitive line between smokeless powder and black powder or black powder substitute. Like I said earlier, I don’t believe smokeless powder is a legal replacement for black powder or black powder substitute when it comes to the legality in the sole purpose of hunting. I do understand that Savage considers smokeless powder a substitute for real black powder or black powder substitute when I comes to what you can use in their muzzleloader for the sport of shooting, but this rule/law doesn't automatically roll over into the hunting rules/laws. If the state says they can only use black powder or black powder substitutes then the use of smokeless powder would be in violation of that rule/law, this is my humble opinion

http://www.savagearms.com/cs_muzzleloader.htm

There is a huge difference between how smokeless powder looks and smells from black powder and black powder substitutes. Plus if there is ever a reason to believe an animal has been taken illegally based on the wrong powder during muzzle loading season then the game warden can have you remove the breech plug and collect the very small charge of powder for testing. They also can seize the firearm and game for further testing, if you don’t comply in the field. Now this is to the extreme, but I have read an article that game wardens used DNA testing to arrest a hunter that had female deer meat in his freezer.

Anyone knowingly using smokeless powder when the law states only black powder or black powder substitute then they are breaking the law. I think its funny how some people feel that something isn’t illegal unless they get caught. I don’t care if you’re ever caught with the illegal powder if you know it’s illegal that’s very unethical and sad to be called a sportsman.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #31 on:** June 30, 2008, 05:43:51 AM »

Pure speculation.

Cheese

myronman3 · « **Reply #32 on:** June 30, 2008, 06:16:27 AM »

well, i can use black powder or 'the original sustitute' in a 45-70 or 30-30, to me this is easy. unless it specifically says "no smokeless", then the original substitue is just fine.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #33 on:** June 30, 2008, 07:18:10 AM »

Quote from: yooper77 on June 30, 2008, 03:49:10 AM

There is a huge difference between how smokeless powder looks and smells from black powder and black powder substitutes. Plus if there is ever a reason to believe an animal has been taken illegally based on the wrong powder during muzzle loading season then the game warden can have you remove the breech plug and collect the very small charge of powder for testing. They also can seize the firearm and game for further testing, if you don’t comply in the field. Now this is to the extreme, but I have read an article that game wardens used DNA testing to arrest a hunter that had female deer meat in his freezer.

I can tell the difference between black powder and smokeless without testing. But 95% of the DNR folks can't. In 35 years of hunting, I have never been checked by a DNR officer in the field for my type of powder or any other thing related to my equipment. I have been check for my hunting license a bunch of times and that was it. Unless you give the DNR officer a reason to be suspicious of you, most of the time all they want to see is your hunting licence.

yooper77 · « **Reply #34 on:** June 30, 2008, 09:15:26 AM »

On the game warden thing, I am not saying it would happen, but it could happen.

I asked Accurate powders the following questions in an email:
I was wondering if 5744 is considered to be a black powder substitute when used in the Savage 10ML during a special muzzle loading season. I don't believe this smokeless powder to be considered a black powder substitute, but I was wondering what you thought? When a muzzle loading hunting law says using black powder or black powder substitute, then I don't think someone can use 5744 legally.

Accurate powders emailed me the following:
You are correct this is a smokeless powder. This will not comply with the law stating black powder substitute.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #35 on:** June 30, 2008, 09:34:07 AM »

Since when does Accurate powder govern over state issues?

Cheese

yooper77 · « **Reply #36 on:** June 30, 2008, 09:39:15 AM »

Since never, I am just gathering facts.

The game warden did only recommend "Black Powder or a powder that is designed to be a substitute for Black Powder (ex: Triple - 7; Clean Shot; Pryrodex, etc)". NOT SMOKELESS POWDER!

I asked Wisconsin game warden following questions in an email:
During the Wisconsin 7 day special muzzle loading season can someone legally use accurate arm's smokeless powder 5744? The Savage model 10ML that is capable of safely using smokeless powder instead of black powder or black powder substitute. Can you clarify if 5744 smokeless powder is legal to use as a black powder substitute in Wisconsin, during the 7 day special muzzle loading season? Is it legal because it doesn't say "no smokeless powder allowed". See this link for the smokeless powder I am talking about http://www.accuratearms.com/data/5744.htm

The Wisconsin game warden emailed me the following:
The powder you mentioned is legal during any season while hunting with a muzzleloader. Why? Because of the way our state law is worded. Our wardens simply cannot make arrests for someone using smokeless powder in a muzzleloader.

Having said that, I would be remiss if I did not advise against this. As an educator I must recommend that anytime a person is hunting or shooting with a muzzleloader firearm that they use Black Powder or a powder that is designed to be a substitute for Black Powder (ex: Triple - 7; Clean Shot; Pryrodex, etc). The propensity for an unwanted accident is simple too high for me to recommend using anything other than what I've stated. The firearm you mentioned, the Savage 110ML, would certainly be the only commercially noted model that could or would withstand the pressures of smokeless powder. This is why the muzzleloader community recommends against use of smokeless powder in any muzzleloader...period.

Again, the powder you mentioned is legal for muzzleloader hunting in Wisconsin.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #37 on:** June 30, 2008, 10:26:59 AM »

And there you have it.

Thank you Yooper, good job on getting the Legal info.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #38 on:** June 30, 2008, 01:58:24 PM »

Seemed obvious to me from the minute I read the regs, some time ago.

Cheese

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #39 on:** June 30, 2008, 02:14:08 PM »

Quote from: Cheesehead on June 30, 2008, 01:58:24 PM

Seemed obvious to me from the minute I read the regs, some time ago.

Cheese

Cheese, thank goodness everyone set you straight..lol

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #40 on:** June 30, 2008, 03:54:34 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on June 30, 2008, 02:14:08 PM

Quote from: Cheesehead on June 30, 2008, 01:58:24 PM
Seemed obvious to me from the minute I read the regs, some time ago.

Cheese

Cheese, that goodness everyone set you straight..lol

Amen to that!

Cheesehead · « **Reply #41 on:** June 30, 2008, 04:00:03 PM »

nomosendero · « **Reply #42 on:** June 30, 2008, 04:33:13 PM »

Whew, I was worried!!!!

yooper77 · « **Reply #43 on:** June 30, 2008, 05:22:29 PM »

I was worried too, NOT!

I manly use T/C cap locks with real FFG black powder, just recently I acquired a 15" 209x50 pistol and 26" 209x50 rifle barrels for my T/C Encore, but of course I will use 777 or other true black powder substitutes.

I just like to know the actual rules, never hurts to ask the experts.

yooper77

Cheesehead · « **Reply #44 on:** June 30, 2008, 05:27:20 PM »

"true black powder substitutes."

That is an interesting statement.

Cheese

30-06man · « **Reply #45 on:** June 30, 2008, 08:33:26 PM »

Boys yall got worked up over nothing, how many game wardens do you know that actually would make you unload your muzzleloader unless they have reasonable suspicion that you are doing something illegal? How many do you know that know the difference? How many do you know that has a breach plug wrench for every ML out there on him? I wouldn't have seen this as a problem and if he was asked he could always state that he didn't have a breach plug wrench and had no way of unloading it at that time.

30-06man · « **Reply #46 on:** June 30, 2008, 08:44:17 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on June 29, 2008, 12:04:08 PM

Say what you want to about Randy, but he has a lot of muzzleloader knowledge.
Yes he seems to be bias on the stuff he uses, but he has put out a lot of useful information also.

I have to agree. Once you look past his obvious bias on Spanish guns and other things you can see he has a bunch of knowledge. I have even posted a few of his items here before. I have had some items like I don't like Traditions but I don't see this as a reason for me to bash them or any other Spanish gun like the CVA or Bergara Barrels which I have found to be good quality and I own a few barrels from Bergara Barrels for my Encore. I don't see eye to eye with him on Spanish guns and ML's but that is no reason to bash his other knowledge. I also don't see my bad luck with Traditions a ground to bash them because a bunch of us have tested them and have had good luck.

Quote from: bigblock455 on June 29, 2008, 10:28:19 AM

Dang! Sometimes i hate being moderator of this forum! Can't speak my mind about ol' randy wakeman. It's not good, lets just say that.

Being a Mod or a Co Mod doesn't mean you can't speak your mind it just means keep it under control in any forum not just this one or any others you moderate or co mod.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #47 on:** July 01, 2008, 12:24:08 AM »

Quote from: 30-06man on June 30, 2008, 08:33:26 PM

Boys yall got worked up over nothing, how many game wardens do you know that actually would make you unload your muzzleloader unless they have reasonable suspicion that you are doing something illegal? How many do you know that know the difference? How many do you know that has a breach plug wrench for every ML out there on him? I wouldn't have seen this as a problem and if he was asked he could always state that he didn't have a breach plug wrench and had no way of unloading it at that time.

I have to agree, most of us do not carry a breach plug wrench with us in the field, and nether does the game wardens. If they want me to unload my muzzleloader, I would put a primer in it, and fire it into the ground, they can check the powder burns to see if the could figure out what I was using..

bigblock, 30-06man is right, just because you are a Moderator, does not mean you cannot express your opinion. So many people thought when I was a Moderator, I was not allowed to express my opinion. You are a member here like the rest of us.

myronman3 · « **Reply #48 on:** July 01, 2008, 04:34:31 AM »

Quote from: Cheesehead on June 30, 2008, 01:58:24 PM

Seemed obvious to me from the minute I read the regs, some time ago.

Cheese

me too. some people need more to worry about i guess.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #49 on:** July 01, 2008, 05:10:09 PM »

I choose not to speak about some one who can not defend them selves/ speak up on what i have to say about them.

I dont agree with quite a bit of his stuff, mainly his bashing. He did give a nice review on the X-150 which is a huge inline favorite of mine. He did good until he started bashing the barrels on them.

He supports mainly the savage so clearly, anything he writes about it, will have no bashing.

Anyone ever shoot conicals with one of these? I've always wondered about how accurate they were with a BP Sub "smokeless prohibited"

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #50 on:** July 04, 2008, 06:38:16 AM »

I did read an article by Ralph Lermayer about the Savage gun, the first model that used the module inserts and the 2nd model that didn't. Most of the groups he has listed with non-smokeless powders were pretty good. I'll try to find the magzine, it's several years old, but I know that I still have in my "reference section".

john keyes · « **Reply #51 on:** July 04, 2008, 07:43:07 PM »

In Texas I was reading our rule book and found something I would have never known otherwise: cap and ball revolvers are illegal because they are not ML.

Anyhow my next ML will be a Savage.

I can't figure out what makes the Savage that different, and Wakeman says its not higher pressure with smokeless?

I'm losted.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #52 on:** July 04, 2008, 07:45:03 PM »

Hmm, cap'n'ball guns are illegal. Go figure.

In Missouri, they go out of their way to include cap and ball revolvers in the muzzleloader regs.

30-06man · « **Reply #53 on:** July 05, 2008, 09:39:22 AM »

Quote from: john keyes on July 04, 2008, 07:43:07 PM

In Texas I was reading our rule book and found something I would have never known otherwise: cap and ball revolvers are illegal because they are not ML.

Anyhow my next ML will be a Savage.

I can't figure out what makes the Savage that different, and Wakeman says its not higher pressure with smokeless?

I'm losted.

He's wrong if he said that.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #54 on:** July 06, 2008, 09:43:37 AM »

Quote from: 30-06man on July 05, 2008, 09:39:22 AM

Quote from: john keyes on July 04, 2008, 07:43:07 PM
In Texas I was reading our rule book and found something I would have never known otherwise: cap and ball revolvers are illegal because they are not ML.

Anyhow my next ML will be a Savage.

I can't figure out what makes the Savage that different, and Wakeman says its not higher pressure with smokeless?

I'm losted.

He's wrong if he said that.

How's that?

30-06man · « **Reply #55 on:** July 06, 2008, 05:16:17 PM »

Smokeless powers produce higher pressures basically because of their properties to be faster burning. The shape of the grain of smokeless and the size has to due with the pressures and how fast it burns. If his statement was true then it would be safe to use smokeless in any ML which is NOT true and is very unsafe. If you know something diffrent please tell me.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #56 on:** July 07, 2008, 01:16:25 AM »

It is in the recommended load for the Savage. There is a lot of variables involved in obtaining high pressures. Like the amount of powder used. A lot of powders will have less pressure than black powder, but it is all in how much powder you use.

I don't recommend it nor does T/C . But I personally know people were using smokeless powder in the Encore and again I do not suggest trying it nither does T/C.

Let’s see how that works out.
The Lyman ballistic laboratory recorded the following .45-70 loads for velocity and pressure. The similarity is remarkable!
From the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook:
Bullet weight: 420 grs.
70.0 grs./ FFG / 1,268 f.p.s. / 16,400 C.U.P.
28.5 grs./ 4198 / 1,267 f.p.s. / 13,900 C.U.P.
Interesting that less pressure was produced with the smokeless load.

http://home.comcast.net/~parslowb/2007/12/thoughts-on-reloading-1876-45-75.html

nomosendero · « **Reply #57 on:** July 07, 2008, 03:43:35 AM »

At that light charge level, yes. But, if an idiot uses 50 gr of4198 with his MZ & 150 gr of BP then the pressure differnce is huge & that is why TC can't tell you smokeless is OK. It would not be good in the Savage either, but it has more leeway than others.

This is not to say that the TC is weak, after all you can look at various chamberings they offer to counter that, I am only pointing out that as you increase the powder charges for both, the pressure will climb for the hotter smokeless powders faster.

1sourdough · « **Reply #58 on:** July 08, 2008, 01:05:19 AM »

I was with you Cheeze, even before I read the good response from the DNR. I was thinking this may be one of those cases where you ask 3 DNR people the ? & get 3 different answers. Lets not be to anal about things. Your out hunting with a charged M-L & a few speedloaders, the last thing the DNR guy will do is inspect your propellant.

simonkenton · « **Reply #59 on:** September 06, 2008, 07:07:44 AM »

I have been away from this forum for a few months. I just looked at, and read, this thread for the first time.
I like the way you think, Cheesehead.

Like someone else said, I bet you could ask 3 Wisconsin Game Wardens the same question, and get 3 different answers.
Take your speed loaders and go hunting with the 5744. Who cares? Do you think a warden is going to pull your charge? Now, I wouldn't leave a jug of 5744 on the front seat of my car. Why go looking for trouble?
They have important laws to enforce and are not going to waste time with this.
Smokeless is not that much of a ballistic advantage, anyway.
The main reason I use it is that it is non corrosive.