Time to open a can of worms

[stimpylu32]

Everything that we have been told to look for as far as pressure sighs in our handloads for the last 50 + years is now said to be no good , and we are to go by what the loading manuals data says as far as pressures and velocities and to use a Chronograph to make sure our loads are in line with the data provided .

So what are we to do when our Chronograph tells us that the load is 300 fps slower than what the book says we should have , do we just keep adding powder even though we are at max per the book ? or do we trust the book data and not the chronograph ?

The point I am trying to make is that even though there is a ton of science behind loading your own ammo , it still requires a good bit of common sense and thought to keep yourself and others safe .

Tell me what you think about the whole thing ?

stimpy

[KRP]

I think common sense is an oxymoron.

[victorcharlie]

I'm not sure what to think as I simply don't have a lot of experience with the shooting chrony yet.  For the last 25 years I've shot a particular load using IMR4831 at what used to be a grain under max.  Max made the bolt hard to lift and flattened primers.  Now, in the new manual, the max load is 3 grains under what it used to be and 2 grains under what I've shot for many years.

I my case, with the .06 load listed in the previous post, I think the manual was printed with an error.

Life's much easier when things are what they appear.

[Castaway]

One sure sign of pressure when using a crony is the velocity will go up as powder is added.  If you reach a point that you are adding powder and velocity increase isn't proportional, you've pushing the pressure limits.

[Hairtrigger]

I rarely push a cartridge hard. There is almost always a larger cartridge to go to.
Why push a 223 when there is the 220 Swift? Why push a 22-250 when you could have a 223wssm?
Brass will last much longer if you do not try to get that last 50fps.

[Davemuzz]

I dunno.....I just take the brass and scoop a big 'ol gob of powder in it and then jam the bullet in it. I use any bullet I can find. Some are 30 caliber, some are 7mm, some are 44 caliber....and if they don't fit real good....I just whack 'em hard with a hammer. 

Yeah....I like to run 'em across the chrony and see what they do. But from everything I've read, each gun barrel is different. So, if you take a load that is suppose to get 2700fps, and you only get 2500fps from your gun, it may not be the load. It may be your gun. The same load in another gun may give you 2650fps. So, the load may be at max, but its not going to give you more in your gun....except a barrel buldge at best, if you jam more powder in it.

Dave

[DalesCarpentry]

It could be like a little kid that you ask a question to and are real surprised at the answer. The reason being you are an adult and their answers are so simple that you never even think of them. The reason I say this is I am new to reloading so I am much like a child that knows no better. As a child of reloading I would say never exceed what the book says no matter what the Chronograph says. Dale

[R.W.Dale]

So what are we to do when our Chronograph tells us that the load is 300 fps slower than what the book says we should have , do we just keep adding powder even though we are at max per the book ?

 Just because you don't have the books velocity doesn't mean that you haven't met the max pressure.

[wyohandi]

I personally think any manual or data from any source are only guidelines at best.
Every gun offers its own problems.
I have a 7mm-08 that is at it's max. with starting loads in most manuals, it will
handle more but the cases are only good for 2 reloads before the primers fall out.
The velocity seems to me to be a fair indicator on the top end if I'm getting max velocity
with 4-5grs less powder than the book says, guess I can load a couple more per pound of powder
A chronograph is really nice to have but if your the every FPS possible type it can get you hurt
just because the book says xxx bullet will go xxxxFPS doesn't mean your gun will reach that safely.
I would never recommend going over listed maximums.
I also won't reload for anyone who won't let me have the gun to test them in because every gun
is different.

[steve4102]

  You are correct, there is a whole host of so called experts out there touting the evils of the so called "pressure signs".   Who are these experts that know more than the makers of the manuals anywho?  As far as I know all of my manuals both new and old still preach the "start low and work up looking for signs of pressure along the way" technique.  Hell, they even list what these "pressure signs" look like, measure like and even feel like.

  I find it kinda ironic that these so called experts preach the Gospel where load data is concerned ,but discount everything else concerning pressure signs printed in these manuals and consider it "reading tea leaves or Chicken entrails".  IMO, if you trust the load data provided in your manual you should also trust what they have to say about pressure signs and how to interpret them, not some Internet guru or so called expert . 

  It's true that with many cartridges the old traditional pressure signs will not so up until the load is way over pressure, SAAMI pressure.  Lets look at the 30-06 for example.  It has a SAAMI pressure rating of 60K.  When loading the 30-06 to book Max you will most likely not see anything that would resemble a traditional pressure sign such as a sticky bolt lift or extractor marks.  Now load the 30-06 up to 270 Win pressures of 65k.  At 65K you are way over pressure for the 30-06.  But, you may still not see any signs of high pressure, Why?  Because the the 30-06, 270, 280, 25-06 will all run at 65k or less with no problems and not show any signs of high pressure in a modern bolt action rifle until you reach about 70-75K.   Are you over pressure in a 30-06 at 65K?  Yes.  SAAMI pressure, downloaded to accommodate older weaker actions.  Are you in danger of injury or rifle damage at 65K in a 30-06 ,hell no.  The 270 runs it all day long, as do most of the newer cartridges developed over the last few decades.   

[PaulS]

I let my brass tell me when the loads are too hot. I NEVER exceed maximum listed loads and I start low and work up to where I find accuracy. If I reach maximum load and haven't found an accurate load then I try another powder, or bullet or primer. Most of my loads are between 93% and 97% of maximum listed loads. I have seen powders that show signs of excessive pressure below minimum loads (working backwards from the starting load). That powder just did not work in that cartridge with that bullet. (this was with a wildcat 6mmx30-30) so I didn't have tried and true loads. I just chose a cartridge that was similar and started low - and in this case worked down. Extrapolated data doesn't always work. For the standard cartridges I use the data in the manuals.
My brass lasts over twenty loadings, neck sizing without having to "bump the shoulder back" and that tells me that I am well below maximum presuures in my gun. If it needs to be FL sized after less than 10 loadings then I asume I am at or near the maximum load for that gun.
The reson for this line of thought is this: In order for the brass case to expand beyond the limits of the chamber, the chamber has to be expanding beyond the elastic limits of the brass. If the chamber is distorting to that extent then there is too much pressure for that gun. It isn't dangerous - right off - but it may lead to minute fractures over years of use that could eventually result in a damaged gun or worse, a damaged body. It is more economical for me because I don't have to buy as many cases, I use less powder, and the wear and tear on my barrel is non-existant. That means I get to enjoy shooting more - which helps take care of the savings that I get for loading lighter loads.

[Sweetwater]

One more worm for the can!

Back in the '50's, every loading bench didn't have a Chrony to help in any way and we had to think and take care of ourselves. Some of my Dad's friends swore by the manuals and the indicated velocities, and swelled primer pockets beyond belief on several occasions. We read everything that was available to us and pretty much stayed out of trouble.
We have used the same brass over time, plus added some new stock from time to time. Don't know of any brass that failed in as few as 10 loadings. Does that mean our pressures are low? I don't think so. The loads in my 8mm are from the 8mm-06 tables and COAL is the same as the 8mm-06. It does put elk down with authority and doesn't punish me in the process. After 20 years with the same load, Chrony said it was pushing a 200gr Nosler in the 2400fps catagory. Not Warp Speed but sure gets the job done. Wife#2 liked it so much she put it on the "her stuff" list when we got divorced. It stayed with me!
This load development didn't happen overnight and the brass just keeps asking for more. I"ve still got a half a box of the original Herter's box of ammo that we got in 1963 when we got that rifle. It's the only one that I know of in our family of rifles that has been what I consider extremely over pressured. One particular load dropped the spent primer on the ground at my feet. After the 2nd primer hit the ground, I was smart enough to pull the bullets on the rest of that batch. I was "working in my lab" and got a bit aggressive with some really fast powder. That Mauser action is tough. Period. Most of my rifle loads today can be found somewhere in the "range listed" in the Lyman #45 manual. Because "the book" said so? Heavens NO. Because the rifles said so! As stated by others here, I totally agree the manual is but a guide and one we need to READ, digest, and not take too lightly, BUT be ever so mindful that our rilfes are all different, they are entities unto themselves. When we let the rifles talk, they will, and we need to listen to the rifles, always tempered by the manuals, but not restricted to the manuals. The individual rifle has the last word.

IF I were starting reloading today, I would use the manual religiously and only after extensive experience, would I venture from reloading into handloading - where I am today - tailoring my loads for a specific rifle with a specific purpose. Contrary to what you may read, we all can't just go buy the "next bigger" cartridge available. We have to figure out how to make our rifles perform the way we need to have them perform - safely. Overtime, we learn what works for smaller game and what works for larger game. We may even figure we need to adjust our expectations, or limit our range. Neither of which are a problem to me.

I generally neck size rifle cases, but when I do full-length size, I am extremely careful NOT to touch the shoulder! Most of my rifles headspace on the shoulder, and when the case comes out of the rifle, that shoulder is where it needs to be - it is fireformed to fit the chamber.  Don't want to mess with that dimension for best performance! There is virtually no difference between a chamber that is out of dimension and a chamber cut for a wildcat cartridge. The case has to fit the chamber. The sizing die needs to replicate the chamber, not necessarily what it's supposed to be. We tend to overwork our cases in the process of resizing and that work hardens the brass to the point of creating premature brass failures. Some of our brass dates back to 1954. The brass has never been annealed and keeps on sending projectiles downrange.

Upon reading the post concerning extrapolating powder charges downward - this can be an extremely exciting situation, depending on what powder you are using. Powders have a minimum pressure needed to burn properly, or pressures will spike. Hodgdon's states specifically that their 4895 will work at the 65% load density area. In his elder years, my Dad has taken a liking to reduced loads and shoots a lot of them. H4895 has served him well, BUT when he tried to do the same with some other powder, his Remington 722 got a new bolt! Pressures sky-rocketed! We all know why, and so did he...after. Never too old to learn or be reminded.

Experience is a great teacher, and a tough task master. We can learn a lot from reading the old masters, and, when they are being open, they will share some of the pitfalls they have experienced and how to identify them. I believe we can read our rifles, just as I believe we can and need to listen to them....let the rifles talk....give them the floor!

Hmm, maybe this was more than one worm.......

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Lloyd Smale]

never exceed published data! You might find a load that is running slow but it could be casused by a odd lot of powder or a bad batch of primers and if you then exceed that data and the next time you load not keep this in mind it can get you into big trouble. If i were to load some ammo using published data and found i was 300 fps slow i would switch to a different combination of power primer and bullet again using a loading manual as a refernce. the only exception i make to these wrote in stone rules is when loading surplus powders. Then there is no published data and your on your own. In that case i use the old methods of sensing high pressure along with a chronograph and alot of common senese. Surplus powders are not something someone who is trying to squeeze the last fps out of there gun should be fooling with.

[victorcharlie]

In my case, I'm not trying to squeeze the max velocity out of a load.  Really, I load for an accurate, comfortable load to shoot and if I need more power I step up in caliber.

However, when a load chrony's 250 to 300 fps different than stated and has a standard deviation of 49 it makes me curious.  Still, the load is an accurate load, but there is a fairly significant change in zero at 2500 versus 2750 when moving beyond 100 yards.

In my case, I'm somewhat surprised.

[Lone Star]

Actually it might be simple.  The owner of this website has clearly stated that he won't tolerate the posting of over-book maximum loads.  This 'might' infer that discussing ways to exceed published maximums goes against his wishes.  No matter what my personal ideas on the subject - on this website I consider published maximum loads as maximum, period.


.

[coyotejoe]

I'm not into pushing hot loads, one or two hundred fps will make no noticeable difference in the field but may make a big difference in brass life and safety. But, with that said, the old saw of "never exceed maximum listed loads" ignores the fact that a starting load in one book may be over max in another. The chronograph is a useful tool but it really doesn't answer the question either since it isn't "max velocity" but "max pressure" that is the concern. Many people seem to think that 1/2 a grain over the listed max will "blow up a rifle". In reality, it takes a lot to cause a blow-up. That is not to say you can't get into a lot of trouble with overloads but people who have actually tried to do blow-up tests have generally had to resort to fast burning pistol powders to get it done as the case would simply not hold enough of any reasonably correct powder. All in all, I still trust the old tried and true pressure signs and if extraction is at all sticky I'll back off regardless of any other indications as I want reliability above all else.

[Old Syko]

Why is it so hard for folks to understand that all published data is a GUIDELINE ONLY, nothing more and nothing less and can be only reasonably precise when ALL components and conditions are duplicated. 

There is absolutely NO direct correlation between Max pressure and Max velocity for any given round.  Printed velocities are not maximums and in some cases (albeit very few) may be exceeded without exceeding max pressures or even reaching max listed load info.  As a rule you'll register up to 300fps slower than some printed data.  Comparing different manuals showing the same loads will in some cases show this much variation.

When using a Chronograph build your load to give the most consistent velocity with the lowest deviation and 9 out of 10 times you will have your most accurate load.

Long story short, If you make a habit of loading until you reach a published velocity, your days are numbered!

[Davemuzz]

Long story short, If you make a habit of loading until you reach a published velocity, your days are numbered!

Gun barrels are like women.....they look the same, they can even have the same measurements, but when you get right down to it.....your just not gonna get the same performance from each one. And if you keep tryin to push it til you do......something really bad is gonna happin....and that usually means it's gonna cost you a bunch of money.

Dave

[beemanbeme]

Point to be made is the books themselves will tell you they are guidelines and they will also tell you what to look for as you go up the charge ladder.  The info is there, all you 've got to do is use it.

I don't motor my rifles at top end or near it.  But I like to know where it is.  And by using a combo of Chrony, books, empirical means, and the diminishing returns of no or little gain in velocity for added powder, I can figure that out.

 I remember reading in a mag an article where the author said with a good, modern bolt action rifle, you should be able to exceed the books by 10%. 

[coyotejoe]

When using a Chronograph build your load to give the most consistent velocity with the lowest deviation and 9 out of 10 times you will have your most accurate load.

Your mileage may vary, but in my own experience I have seen no correlation between standard deviation and group size, a small deviation may or may not produce a small group, although an extremely large deviation probably will not produce a good group. I always position my chrono to shoot groups on paper at the same time I measure velocity and it is the target which tells the story regardless of the chrono results. Chronographs are "interesting" but I got along for forty plus years without one and can't say my results have gotten the least bit better now that I have one.

[drdougrx]

I'm with Coyote on this one.  I have a Oehler and have had it for years.  I'm a pharmacist and I can get a Sd under 10 almost always...I learned to weigh powder accurately and I use a torsion balance (from the drugstore).  Having said that I have loaded and continue to load some very consistant and inaccurate loads.  Standard deviation means that 67% of data will fall within a parameter.  If you load and chrono 10 rounds of 270win and the avVel id 2950fps with a 140gr bullet and the Sd is 10, 67% of all rounds fired will have velocities between 2960 and 2940fps.  Consistant but not necessarily accurate I'm afraid.

My opinion on the chrono is that its like trophy hunting...since you can compare apples to apples, some of the fun is gone.  Here's what I mean, a friend of mine has a 280 and uses a 160gr bullet and has had awesome luck with it on game at various distances.  He shot some through my chrono and low and behold, his pet, proven load was at least 400fps slower than he thought.  So he got to tweaking and fooling around and has never found a load anywhere near as accurate as his original.  So, I said asked him why he just didn't go back to the original and he said, what's the point, it's so underpowered. 

[Timmer]

I do not own a chronograph but have shot my reloads through a friend of mine. So far every reload that I shoot is well below maximum for velocity and pressure but is the most accurate for the firearm being used. In fact my friend sold me his sportorized P17 because he couldn't get it to shoot under 4 moa at 100 yards. Well I fooled around with it, restoring it to pre-WWII condition and then started to test some reloads. Interesting to me was that the 5 shot groups settled in to about 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards using 165 grain bullets limping along at about 2,650 fps. I've found that if I don't push it I can find a reload that will yield good accuracy.

[Old Syko]

I do not own a chronograph but have shot my reloads through a friend of mine.

No wonder you have so few friends!!!   

[DalesCarpentry]

I do not own a chronograph but have shot my reloads through a friend of mine.

No wonder you have so few friends!!!   

Now that gave me a good laugh. Dale

[Dave in WV]

What do I REALLY think? I think not owning a chronograph is a good thing. Ignorance is bliss. While I'd like to have a chronograph I don't need one. I only load one cartridge to max (depending on whose data is used). If I get good enough accuracy and good terminal ballistics I'm happy.

[beemanbeme]

 I'll admit that a Chrony would fall into the "nice to have" catagory of reloading things rather than the "got to have" catagory BUT THEN, once you get past a Lee Loader, everthing else is a nice to have. I think they are much better tool than all of these bullet measuring and case weighing and stuff comparerating crap. 

I feel that I am a more knowledgeable, safer, and much better looking reloader since I got mine.

The info I get from the Chrony has little to do with Max velocity. 

[Sweetwater]

Re:drdougrx's post - so many of us believe we need a certain velocity with our guns to achieve success in the field. Your friend with the 280 did fine until he found it wasn't as fast as he thought, but....apparently it was a good combinaton as is....why can't we understand it's not velocity that kills, it's putting the bullet where it needs to go. I killed my last elk with a cast bullet from wheeweights out of an old 32WinSpcl.....basically put the Nosler Partitions for my bigger guns on the back shelf for hunts in need of greater bullets. Not sure just what that would be in the lower 48.

What we really need is less whiz-bang and more practice, practice, practice.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[victorcharlie]

Max load list a sierra 150 at 3000 fps.  My load at 2500 fps and less is substantially (500fps) below max, and  250 fps below stated.  I will certainly load the same load, but as a reduced load.

Hodgdon doesn't list the sierra bullet, but a 150 Nosler has a max load of 60 grains and a velocity of 2992.  Both the Speer and Hornady list their 150 grain max loads almost 5 grains higher.

I'm thinking I'll make a call to Sierra and see if I can get an explanation.

Now, back the the drawing board so to speak.  I don't need a max load, but I would like it to operate like a 30.06, not a 300 savage.

[John R.]

If you have been using a Shooting Chrono for a while, check the battery. I have found it will give false readings when the battery gets low. I've never had a load be off 300 fps best I can remember.

[victorcharlie]

I talked with Paul at Sierra bullets today.  He said the new manual was 2 grains lower than the previous manual due to a new rifle with a tight chamber.  He gave me the max load from a previous sierra manual.  He didn't seem surprised at all.

So, I went back to the range this evening, only got to shoot 20 rounds increasing .5 grains at a time.......velocity increased average of 45 fps for each .5 grain increase but groups opened up.  I've still got a grain or so to go but ran out of daylight.

By the way, 53 grains shot a very tight 5 shot group of .7 inch but was basically 2 holes.  Average velocity for the group was 2545 with a sd of 11.....

Chrony and battery are new, less than a week old and the third time I've used it.