Author Topic: Discussion On A Reloading Pressure Issue I Encountered  (Read 516 times)

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Offline Val

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Discussion On A Reloading Pressure Issue I Encountered
« on: June 28, 2008, 05:40:07 AM »
I'm a So Cal resident and as of July 1st we must use non-lead bullets in the Condor range, which includes my Deer Hunting zone. Nosler has put out a non-lead bullet in 30 Caliber that weighs 150 grains. I decided to develop a load with the 150 grain E-tip foer my Model 70 inj 30-06 even though I prefer 165 grain pellets in my 30-06. Nosler has not published any load data for the E-tips but I did read the following article in Shooting Times.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/etipwin_100907/index.html

The article says that the E-tips are interchangeable with the Accubonds in the same load recipe.

I had previously played with 150 grain Hornady SSTs in my 30-06 and they shot best with 59 grains of IMR 4350. If you look at the Nosler manual they indicate that the most accurate load with IMR 4350 and 150 grain bullets is 59 grains. With quite a bit of reloading expierence in various calibers I have determined that the Nosler BTs, Partitions, Accubonds and the Hornady SSTs and Interbonds are all pretty much interchangeable in the same load recipe.

In starting my load development, I started two grains lower than the 59 grain max in the Nosler manual (by the way the Hornady Manual says 59.9 grains max) and built up in .5 grain increments. When developing a load I always check my brass for signs of over pressure. Lo and behold I got the best groups (just under 1" three shot groups) at 59 grains of IMR 4350. The brass showed absolutely no signs of over pressure. The 150 grain E-tips are 70 thousands longer than the Accubonds. I had to seat the E-tips about 10 thousands less in OAL than I seat the 165 grain pellets I shoot in this Model 70. The magazine limits OAL on this rifle.

About this time I picked up some feedback on the Nosler reloading forum that Nosler recommends two grains less as a max load for the E-tips. That puts me 2 grains over max according to Nosler. My 165 grain loads for this rifle vary from 2820 fps to 2890 fps (In 165 grain loads I use 57 grains of IMR 4350) based on a chronograph readings. Since this is a lighter bullet I was anticipating a muzzle velocity of about 2950 (the E-tip also has a BC of .469). The average of 10 shots gave me a chronoraphed muzzle velocity of 2994 fps. A bit higher than I expected but certainly not way out of bed.

While developing this load an anomaly developed with my model 70. I have always loaded a round directly into the chamber when shooting from a bench. When hunting I always feed the chamber from the magazine. When I tried to feed directly into the chamber the round would not go completely in and I couldn't close the bolt with the normal bolt pressure. I went to a gun smith with a no powder dummy load (bullet seated in the brass) and I explained the problem. He told me that problems loading directly into the chamber on model 70s is not uncommon. It's an issue of the extractor not properly getting around the rim of the brass  but loading through the magazine this problem does not occur (I don't know why). He took my dummy load and showed me how it loads very nicely from the magazine. I went back home and loaded up some more of the E-tips and sure enough they loaded just fine from the magazine. I shot another 15-20 rounds and once again no signs of pressure on the brass.

I've had this model 70 for nearly 10 years and have probably shot 500 to 600 rounds through it. I talked to another gunsmith and he concurs with the Model 70s having problems when loading directly into the chamber. He does not think that the E-tip load is too high a pressure. Do you guys think that the chambering problem is just a coincidence with my load development or do you think that this load is indeed too much pressure?

I would appreciate some of your thoughts on this issue. Thanks.

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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Discussion On A Reloading Pressure Issue I Encountered
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2008, 06:17:14 AM »
I recently picked up a box of the E-tips for my 270 and as I could find no published data for this bullet I sent an Email to Nosler to ask about loads . Their responce was to use the Partion data BUT to concider the mid level data as MAX for this bullet . Which coinsides with the piece of paper that was in the bottom of the box of bullets . ( should have been on top )

As there is no Listed data to compare to I feel that this is what we will have to use as a MAX load till they publish a proper data list . As for your chamber , If your smith feels that that this is a problem with the case head and not your loads I would trust him .

With you having to seat the bullet deeper to allow for the mag C.O.L. I would back off on the load to closed to what Nosler has said , better safe than sorry .

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Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: Discussion On A Reloading Pressure Issue I Encountered
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2008, 10:42:21 AM »
It would seem to me since there is no published data, they are telling you to go light on the load to avoid liabilty. The load will probably change once a manual comes out. Like Stimply said though better safe than sorry.
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Online Graybeard

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Re: Discussion On A Reloading Pressure Issue I Encountered
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2008, 11:00:43 AM »
The new Nosler E-Tip bullet most closely compares to the old Barnes X bullet than any other. The metal composition of it is not the same pure copper as is the Barnes and is in fact more closely compared to cartridge brass than to copper. What this should tell you is that friction in the barrel has to be much greater than any conventional cup and core bullet same as the original Barnes X bullet.

Until pressure tested data becomes available I'd suggest using data for the Barnes X and no I do not mean the blue coated ones nor the newer triple shock but the original Barnes X that all the world recognized as developing higher pressures than all other bullets.

To expect to look at cases and determine when your pressure is excessive is a fool's errant and is only gonna get you in trouble. If you are using loading data for the Nosler Accubond or Partition at the max level you are running WAY HIGH pressures. Folks get by with this only due to the great strength build into modern firearms but it still is not wise to run loads that are 20,000 or more above SAAMI established standards for extended time. They really didn't set those standards just to keep you from getting belted magnum performance from your '06 based rounds.

Controlled round feed actions are not designed to operate properly when you single feed rounds into the chamber. They are designed to feed from the magazine only.


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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Discussion On A Reloading Pressure Issue I Encountered
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2008, 12:34:34 PM »
As everybody sez, you've got a controlled feed rifle, etc.  Why not drop back THREE grains and see what you got.  2700-2800fps will kill a deer just as dead. 

Offline Duckhunter39480

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Re: Discussion On A Reloading Pressure Issue I Encountered
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2008, 02:17:27 PM »
I have never used a M70 Winchester rifle but it sounds like you have a "control round feed" rifle.  The case rim actually slides under the extractor as the cartridge is fed into the chamber from the magazine, much like a Mauser I have.  Either the extractor is stiff and will not go over the case head or it was not designed to go over the case head.  In either case, when you feed a round directly into the chamber the large extractor claw has to "jump" the case head for the bolt to close.  This is sometimes difficult.

If you have been sucessful in finding an accurate group and the spent brass shows no sign of excessive pressure, you should be happy with the accuracy you have achieved.  I know of several who use reloading manuals as a guide that shows where to start looking for pressure problems.  I have pushed some reloads to the upper end of the range but I never exceed the published charges.  I am looking for accuracy more than speed.

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Offline Dave in WV

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Re: Discussion On A Reloading Pressure Issue I Encountered
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2008, 06:06:46 AM »
I agree with your gunsmith. You didn't say what kind of accuracy you get with the other loads tested with less powder than 59gr. What is the normal range you shoot game? How much accuracy is really needed? I'd rather be safe than sorry. I've posted it before and I'll do it now, IMHO once you get enough accuracy to consistently place your shots in the field, terminal ballistics is more important. 
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