Deer cartridge only ??????

[banen]

Freezer,
My vote would go to the 3X9.  My 270 wears a 3X9 Leupold I am happy to give up a little Magnification at the top end in favor of less bulk and weight.  My personal opinion is that 9X is plenty for most large game situations. 

This is my 100th post.  Thanks to Graybeard I have really enjoyed being a part of this forum. 

[Brithunter]

  No nasty intended (well maybe just a little)    

    I just found it strange to be reading about 333 Jeffery, 9 Mauser, 9.3x61, 338-06, 300 Dakota and 358 for someone who wants a deer gun only!  The fore mentioned calibers would work fine as a deer, elk, moose and bear cartridges but is far more than you'd need to drop even a giant Mullie, not to mention the recoil and weight of the rifle.  For that matter I find the 7 Mag more cartridge than most hunters need for deer just as I feel the 243 is at very best marginal for deer.  I won't knock the 8 Mauser because to do so would be like knocking the 30-06 though I contend there are slightly better cartridges for deer if that is the only thing you want the cartridge to do. 
   If someone is trying to find one deer cartridge chances are they don't hand load.  The cartridge they chose should be readily available in any store.  That would make the 270 Win a hands down winner and eliminate my favorite cartridges 

    As for politics we can all screw up now and again, I voted for H Ross Perot once   And I didn't have sexual realtions with that woman.

Hmmmm I wonder how you feel about the .358£ Winchester>

Reason I ask is that the .358 Win is almost the same as the 9mm Mauser. In fact it almost duplicates the Mauser cartridges performance  and not everyone is a small bore fan  some like a medium size bullet at modest velocity, by modest I mean about 2300-2500 fps, for plenty of power yet less bloodshot meat.

[Freezer]

    Recoil makes me flinch!  My shots on deer are just behind the shoulder or at the base of the head.  No lost meat.  I prefer 7TCU 140gr Sierra Game King @ 2400fps for under 200yrds, 308 with 165 Game King @ 2900 fps for up to 300yrds or my 280 for long shots using a 140 gr Game King.  I have no need for big bores or mags or for that matter (God forgive me) a 30-06.
    I know folks who hunt with 7mag and 300 winnies.  I out shoot them hands down.  They use more gun than they can handle and they're too heavy.
     Last month I read an article in GUN LIST MAGAZINE that said too many people don't use a big enough caliber.  He was refering to Alaskian moose and bear.  If your after something that big by all means get a big bore.  If your hunting out west for Mule deer in open country and taking 600 yards shots buy a magnum laser.  But pratice with it and get used to it!  Other wise with todays powders and bullet selection, not to mention the factory ammo choices with lite magnum and all,  no need for a heavy recioling Mag rifle for deer antalope and black bear.  All have been taken with a 30-30!

[BBF]

Those moose that the Europeans shoot with their 6.5x55 are Reindeer, and look like midgets compared to a Alakan or Yukon moose. I am not saying a 6.5 wouldn't kill one of them but if you consider you might be in the same place as Mr. "Grizz" hangs out a somewhat larger caliber comes to mind.

[Brithunter]

Those moose that the Europeans shoot with their 6.5x55 are Reindeer, and look like midgets compared to a Alakan or Yukon moose. I am not saying a 6.5 wouldn't kill one of them but if you consider you might be in the same place as Mr. "Grizz" hangs out a somewhat larger caliber comes to mind.

If your going to make comments like this then I suggest you check your facts first  Reindeer and European Elk are two distinct and seperate species. The European Elk (Moose) are smaller than those found in Alaska however their range is vast and depending on location just like those in North America and Canada their size varies. A friend shot a Cow Elk (Moose) in Finland that weighed 600lbs clean, not guess weight that's scale weight  , now Wapiti or North American Elk are in fact a sub species of Red Deer and can breed with other Red Deer. Red Deer are smaller than Wapiti and those Red Deer found in Scotland are smaller than those Red Deer found in Devon (Southwest England) habitat and climate is the resaon for this.

  And yes 6.5x55 drops Moose effectively as it does Wapiti  providing the bullet is placed in the right spot that is!

[jro45]

The 270 is .277. The 7mm Mag is .284. I feel the .257 WBY beats them all.

[BBF]

oops I was thinking Caribou= Reindeer not moose being moose, The moose,elk situation got somewhat muddled with me because the Germans call a Moose an Elch and and Elk is a Hirsch over there

Re: a 6.5 killing a moose, sure, I don't disagree but so will a 243 or even smaller IF put in the right place.
That still leaves Mr. Grizz to consider

[Freezer]

    The 6.5 can do it because of it's high bullet coefficient and sectional density.  Like at the bullet, it looks llike a javelin!   For the man who posted the question I still say .270 all the way.

[deltecs]

I could be happy with any cartridge from .243 Win all the way to 30-06, if used only for deer and no other game taken into consideration.  I qualify this remark by using sectional density bullets at or very near .250 in the smaller bores up to 30 cal.  None would be magnums as it isn't necessary for deer only.  I'd be more concerned with the rifles one was chambered in.  Let me pick the rifle for the game and I'll let you pick the caliber and cartridge, and I'd be just as happy as if I'd picked the entire for myself.  The rifles balance, handling and accuracy are more important to me than the caliber.  I like to use bigger bores and light magnum rifles when hunting deer in big bear territory in case I unluckily encounter one.  I especially then want my pick for rifle above cartridge.  The .270 Win is still a fine round for almost all game in continental US, or any other clones from its parent case, the venerable 30-06.  No argument from me.  I could easily use a 7x57 or any of its clones.  I could use a .308 Win and all of its clones.  I'd have no problem with other rimmed rounds, if hunting wooded areas and shots limited to 200 yds.  I personally use a .243 Win using only 100+ gr bullets for deer in areas with no large brown bear.  I own and have used 6mm Rem, 257 Roberts, .250 Savage, 25-06, 6.5x55 Swede, .270 Win, .280 Rem (my favorite all around rifle), 30-06, 300 Win mag, 30-30, 8x57, 338 Fed, .358 Win, 35 Whelen, .35 Rem, .338 Win Mag, 9.3x62, .375 H&H, and even .416 Rem Mag.  None of the mags killed deer any better than a comparable rimless round.  I don't think there really is just one cartridge that is the best deer round.  There are too many good ones that any comparison would be a matter of personal preference. 

[Swampman]

The .30-06 is about the only deer cartridge I'd even consider.  I't perfect.

[Brithunter]

Sorry even though I have a nice rifle chambered fro the Springfield 1906 cartridge it's not "perfect" in fact it's not even really effcient  the 7.92mm (8 mm Mauser) it actually more effcient. The 308 winchester is probably more effcient than the 06 but as it uses higher pressures it's not a level playing field.

The 270 is .277. The 7mm Mag is .284. I feel the .257 WBY beats them all.

As for this  it's just to daft to really consider. Ole Roy really has a lot to answer for, one heck of a salesman but that's only thing nice I can really say about him.

   Now as to this :-

  The 6.5 can do it because of it's high bullet coefficient and sectional density.  Like at the bullet, it looks llike a javelin!

  If you care to look at most cartridges and the original loadings from this period you will find that they all used long bullets the 173-175 grain 7mm Mauser bullet is long as of course is the 160 grain 6.5mm one, 303 british used a 215 grain RN bullet which again was long, 8mm Mauser used a 227 grain bullet and they all earned excellent reputations for deep penetration. The 270 Winchester bullets are quite stubby in comparision, but that does not stop me liking the 270 Winchester but one must admit the bullet selection is rather limited  . I have sort of decided upon using the 140 grain bullets in mine  .

[Swampman]

Efficent or not the .30-06 is better in every respect.  Whitetal deer weighing in excess of 400 lbs are harvested in some parts of the country.  The pea shooters (6.5, .270, and .284s) just aren't up to the mission.  Personally, I wouldn't own anything less than a .30-06 in a bolt action rifle.

It's the perfect cartridge.

[kevthebassman]

Efficent or not the .30-06 is better in every respect.  Whitetal deer weighing in excess of 400 lbs are harvested in some parts of the country.  The pea shooters (6.5, .270, and .284s) just aren't up to the mission.  Personally, I wouldn't own anything less than a .30-06 in a bolt action rifle.

It's the perfect cartridge.

What a ridiculous claim to make.  Just because you personally favor a certain cartridge doesn't mean that other cartridges aren't "up to the task."

[Swampman]

I agree, my favoring the .30-06 doesn't make the pea shooters up to the task or not.  They simply aren't.

[kevthebassman]

Well by golly, I musta forgot... Swampman's deer come equipped with Kevlar vests!

 

[Swampman]

"Well here we are in a new decade, which seems to be marked by some outstanding numerals! Take for example 1906, the date year of the landmark cartridge of our time. The 1906 cartridge, which was a modification of the 1903 cartridge previously standard, is as near perfect as things of that sort can get. It is amusing (and slightly annoying) to see how the purchasers of sporting rifles seem to think that improved cartridge design is the answer to everything. I have long taught that if you can't do it with a 30-06, you probably can't do it. Every time some new brass powder bottle appears for sale, all sorts of people, qualified or otherwise, leap into the breach to explain how this new round is somehow better than what has gone before. Whether it is better or not must depend upon what it is designed to do, and it is effectively impossible to say that a shooter accomplished his purpose in the field with the new cartridge in a way that he could not have done with a 30-06. As it is said in Lindy Wisdom's verse: "There ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six." We do not know about the $700, but we do have confidence in the great 30-06 cartridge."

Jeff Cooper

[kevthebassman]

That quote is irrelevant.  The '06 is indeed a fine cartridge, the first rifle I ever bought was a 30-06, and I still use it today.  But there isn't a deer walking this earth that can't be made just as dead with a .280, .270, or .260 as it can with a .30.  I don't see how that's even debatable.

[deltecs]

That quote is irrelevant.  The '06 is indeed a fine cartridge, the first rifle I ever bought was a 30-06, and I still use it today.  But there isn't a deer walking this earth that can't be made just as dead with a .280, .270, or .260 as it can with a .30.  I don't see how that's even debatable.

I agree totally.  There are a host of cartridges out there from IMHO the .243 Win all the way to the .375 for deer hunting.  As posted earlier, let me pick the rifle and anyone can pick the cartridge and bore.  I'd be just as satisfied with it as with my .243, 280, 06, .338, 35, or .375.  For deer only, it would be hard to beat the venerable 7x57 mauser.  Light recoil, great bullet selection, great sectional density, good range, and bullets for hunting in a variety of flora conditions.  But it is not the end all, beat all of choices. 

[Swampman]

Perhaps they are great cartridges in some minds, but they can only be as good as the .30-06.  That isn't debateable.

Personally (having tried them) I wouldn't own any of the .257s, .277s, or the .284s other than the 7X57.

The .243 Winchester is a good heavy varmit round.  Anything bigger than the .30-06 is too big for deer.

Gun companies chamber these cartridges to sell more guns.  They exist for no other reason.

We actually need nothing other than the .223, .30-06, and the .375H&H.

If we could only have one rifle, the .30-06 will do it all.  It is the perfect cartridge.

[Brithunter]

Perhaps they are great cartridges in some minds, but they can only be as good as the .30-06.  That isn't debateable.

Personally (having tried them) I wouldn't own any of the .257s, .277s, or the .284s other than the 7X57.

The .243 Winchester is a good heavy varmit round.  Anything bigger than the .30-06 is too big for deer.

Gun companies chamber these cartridges to sell more guns.  They exist for no other reason.

We actually need nothing other than the .223, .30-06, and the .375H&H.

If we could only have one rifle, the .30-06 will do it all.  It is the perfect cartridge.

Ladies & Gentlemen of the board I am about to be VERY BLUNT:-




What total bollocks!

    If the 30-06 is sooooooooooooooooooooo good why does the Ackley Improved version exsist and give such an gain in velocity over the std 06? The AI version of the .270 win gives virtually no worthwhile gains. I realise that it's pretty futile trying to point out real work facts to those like swampman who are too wrapped up in there own bovine manure to be able to smell the coffee in the real world.

[Swampman]

All AI cartridges are a waste of time and money.  In the .30-06, the AI increases the likelyhood of a misfeed.  So the .30-06AI is less perfect than the old standard by which all others must be measured.

[Brithunter]

All AI cartridges are a waste of time and money.  In the .30-06, the AI increases the likelyhood of a misfeed.  So the .30-06AI is less perfect than the old standard by which all others must be measured

  LOL

I rest my case!

[243dave]

Well I sure don't agree with swampman about the 06 being a perfect cartridge, but it certainly is a good one. Personally I think the 270 is a better deer cartridge but thats my opinion. About the improved 06 being so much better seems to be from a increase in pressure not from its 2% gain in powder . If loaded to equal pressures a gain of 100fps for a 180gr bullet is about all you get. I can get more fps out of a stout reload than the AI version gives. The 06 pressures are still held to below 50,000cups while a 270's are 54,000cups ,this may explain why a 270 imp has almost no gain over the old 270, its already at max. People have argued which cartridge is best for well over a hundred years maybe its time we all agree there are a lot of good ones and be done with it. Nah, never mind, what fun would that be!!

[Drilling Man]

About the improved 06 being so much better seems to be from a increase in pressure not from its 2% gain in powder . If loaded to equal pressures a gain of 100fps for a 180gr bullet is about all you get. I can get more fps out of a stout reload than the AI version gives. The 06 pressures are still held to below 50,000cups while a 270's are 54,000cups ,this may explain why a 270 imp has almost no gain over the old 270, its already at max.

  Your right...  I knew PO Ackley personally, having spent many hours at his shop BS'ing with him, and also talking to him many times on the phone...  PO Ackley liked to tinker with everything, that doesn't mean everything he "improved" actually was worth it, or was much of an improvement.

  The 30-06 is a great cartridge, probably the best cartridge of all time, BUT it surely isn't the only cartridge that will kill big deer cleanly and efficently.

  I think swampman is just pushing you you guys buttons!

  DM

 

[Swampman]

"A person would be hard pressed to find a cartridge that is more versatile and provides more possibilities for hunting a wider range of game than the 30-06.

Guys like Page, Swank, Whelen, Waters did very well using the 30-06 and some of these men carried it and used it on big game in North America and Africa. Let's consider Hosea Sarber as an example, a Alaskan guide and warden, whom Jack O'Connor once said had killed more grizzlies than (Jack O'Connor) had ever seen using a 172gr bullet.

Also, there was Wendell Swank, a man who carried a 30-06 around East Africa collecting game specimen simply because it was the rifle most familiar to him. Oh, Swank did real good, taking the smaller animals with 150gr Sierra. But what was amazing was Dr. George Petrides who took just about everything from kob, wart hogs, and hartebeest, to lion, buffalo and hippos at ranges up to nearly 200yds. Not to mention Andy Russell, Myles Brown, Frank Golata, Alf Madsen, Jay Williams, Bill Rae and Bill Ruger are other men who have taken the 30-06 to Africa.

If it worked in Africa and in North America on big dangerous game then I am sure it has earned a place that the 308 will never occupy. Now add to that the new improved bullets and new powders that allows us to drive bullets out of the 30-06 at 300H&H levels.

In closing it was Stewart Edward White who said, "The 30-06 was as effective on lions as the big .405 Winchester."

[243dave]

I thought this was the thread about DEER CARTRIDGES ONLY, not THE 30-06 IS SO GREAT ITS ALL WE NEED FOR DANGEROUS GAME. Just bustin' your chops Swampman, but when it comes to dangerous and very large african game lets start with a 375 h&h. Its easy to get worked up about your favorite cartridge, believe me I know mine is the 243, you know I catch a lot of crap!!    

[Swampman]

I actually like the .243.  It's very accurate.  Good choice.

[slim rem 7]

 im gonna agree with swampman.. i see all kinda rifles at the range ,,but nothing that id swap my savage 30 06 for..when you get the right gun and right rnd ,, don t mess with it.. to be sure,, theres many fine choices but nothin that makes me think id be gettin a better rifle..ive met a few folks with rifles that well, i ll say it like this..
 im a security guard .. the other day this lady came to pick up her package of gevalia coffee at the guard house[wont fit in thier mail box.]. as i handed it to her i commented that that was an good choice of coffee an i liked it pretty well.. her mouth flew open and all her arrogance  showed up like an neon sign .. i didn t hold it against her though,, cause somebody  had to teach her that at sometime in her life..
   it did remind me  some of  a few ive met with high dollar guns.
. most with those guns are  like my friend ed though.. hes got more guns an money, than anyone i know and can out shoot most anybody i know..but his best talent is telling jokes and huntin stories ,,when the shootins done for the day..
   

[Brithunter]

In closing it was Stewart Edward White who said, "The 30-06 was as effective on lions as the big .405 Winchester."

Well this means one of several things:-

1) the writer had very limited experieince with any other cartridges

2) the writer was being paid to promote the 30-06

3) the 405 winchester is not as good as one would think it might be, most probable.

4) the 30-06 is the best thing since the new "White Powder"came into being, very unlikely

    Oh by the way who is/was Stewart Edward White?

   At the time of the 405 winchester there were already far better and more effcient cartridges in use in the world and especially Africa and Asia, those like the 9mm Mauser, 9.3x57mm, 8x56mm, 7.92mm (8x57mm Mauser) and of course the .375 Rimless Nitro Express later known as the 9.5x57mm and 9.5x65 Mannlicher and that's without going to the proper Big Game cartridges. As for Lions a certain Italian sportsman declared that the 6.5x54MS was the best rifle cartridge combination for them and declaration I really cannot concure with even though I have never faced a Lion nor been to Africa.

     Despite all the quoted sports men using (or claimed to have used) the 30-06 I doubt it has taken as many head of Large African and Asian game as the old 303 British and I am making no claim that the 303 is the best cartridge ever  .

[Swampman]

I think the .303 is better than most of the sub-.308 caliber cartridges.

http://www.ntz.info/gen/n00683.html