Author Topic: Deer cartridge only ?????? (Read 10927 times)

kevthebassman · « **Reply #30 on:** July 01, 2008, 03:32:19 AM »

A 7mm in any one of it's manifestations is a fine cartridge, well suited to putting deer in their place. I don't think that there's any deer out there that a .30 caliber could kill that a 7mm could not. The .30 caliber in all of it's manifestations is a wonderfully versatile tool, but in my case, I consider it (the 30-06, in this case) to be right at the threshold of uncomfortable to shoot in the light-weight rifles I prefer.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #31 on:** July 01, 2008, 04:48:58 AM »

.308 being shorter than .30-06, uses shorter actions, thus lighter rifles. Has good range. Ammo is available most anywhere. Can use NATO ammo for target practice if you don't reload.

wyohandi · « **Reply #32 on:** July 01, 2008, 03:57:35 PM »

I say the 7-08 but for all the reasons you said not to

I have one 98 Mauser
I can use it on elk and antelope also, Mine always goes to elk camp as a back-up rifle
and it has taken a few over the years.
I like ballistics and charts but deer don't read, and I beilieve 1600-1800ftlbs at 300yds
puts you fairly high up on the elk calibers chart.
My 13yr old daughter doesn't have any problem shooting it, she says it kicks less than her 270win
so recoil shouldn't be an issue for most people.
I love my 300RSAUM but if I'm only going for deer (mulies or whitetails) and don't plan on "sniping" them the 7mm-08
will be the gun I take.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #33 on:** July 01, 2008, 05:18:35 PM »

Reading the guys responses as well as yours. Great question by the way.
Everyone is basically picking the same bullets at different speeds to what you already have. The added speed of the same bullet will flatten trajectory and increase the range that that same bullet will have the same energy at impact while increasing recoil in a given weight rifle. Sorry no way around physics.
the 7-08, 284 Win, 280 Reminton, 7mm Mag all shoot a 284 bullet out of different cases and speed in increased. the difference between 284 Win, 280 and 7mm mag are all with in 100 pfs of each other. There are some internal ballistic differences and the short wide case will do the same velocity with less powder and the same bullet. 284 Win has a short wide case but is not exactly a popular round and finding ammo may be difficult on a deer hunt in another part of the country if you forget yours.
I hunt deer with two 308's and they get the job done out to the 300 yards. My last deer was a Mule deer with a 165 grain soft point boat tail bullet loaded by Federal and the hit was at 275+ yards according to the range finder. If recoil is a factor I guess going with a heavier rifle or heavier stock for your 7mm would be a better chioce, you could also reduce the weight of the bullet, or load it so the bullet is traveling slower. Have you tried the Remington reduced recoil loads for your 7mm Mag?
I guess the bigger question is how do you hunt deer. From a Stand, spot and stalk, back country( back packing ) horse back, or road hunting out of a truck. If it's not long distances then a heavy rifle that sucks up the reciol is the answer and if it's back country a light, short cation light kicking rifle is the answer like your daughters 243 is the answer. Are you willing to give up less recoil to save weight? Are you willing to go lighter for caliber bullets to save weight and recoil but give up energy down range?
As I said above I have two main deer rifles in 308. One is a light 7.5 pounds open sighted rifle that I use on the east coast in the woods with a heavy bullet (180 grain rounded nose soft point) and the other is a heavy bull barrel scoped rifle (9.75 pounds) I use for long open shots.
I agree with Wyohandi in the 2000 foot pounds is the basis for an Elk rifle and most say you only need 1000 foot pounds at the deer for deer.
I also agree with 45-70 Govt that 257 Weatherby would be a great round with 117 grain bullets as the recoil is less than the 7mm mag gives you a good S D for a smaller weight bullet than would the 7mm Mag and will fit in any standard action. The bullets fly like a laser and only drop a few inches when sighted in at 200 yards. But then again most of the other mentioned rounds only drop a few more inches than the others at the same distance and holding over the deer would not be needed. Holding on the deer is my criteria for how far I will shoot. If I need to hold over the deer I think I need to get closer to ensure a hit to the vitals and a clean kill. 300 yards seems to be the limit for me on the 308's with 165 to 180 grain bullets.
As I started earlier with the 284 Win the 257 weatherby is not exactly on everybodys shelf and the ammo is expensive when found. Same goes for 6.5 Remington Mag, 264 Winchester Mag, 25 WSSM and 257 roberts that all would make fine deer rigs.
I know I will start a fight with these words but I am not fond of the 270 as a deer round as all the deer my two uncles have shot with the 130 grain bullets out of it have turned large parts of the deer into jelly and if you move up to the 150 grain bullets you start to loose trajectory and increase recoil. So far I have seen things killed with 257 Weatherby, 250 savage, 7mm Mag and all do not have the same jelly effect on the critter. None of my 308's have done damage to the meat but have done great damage to the vitals.
Hope I was helpful.

deerhunter10 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 01, 2008, 10:38:54 PM »

Mcwooddock, thanks for the response, to answer your question I hunt all of the ways mentioned, stand, spot and stalk etc. But most of my rifle hunting be it for mulies or white tail is sitting on a hill side glassing and getting as close as possible, but where I hunt in Utah and where I'm going in western Oklahoma there's not a lot of cover, there fore I'm limited on how close I can get. 300-325 yards is really pushing the comfort zone of my ethics as a hunter. I believe recoil comes into play at that distance, but am I willing to give up a lot of performance for just a bit less recoil absolutely not. I shoot a 12 ga with 3 inch Lightfield 546 gr slugs, but the max distance is about 150 yards out of a stand with a descent rest, and most shots are under a 100 yards, so any flinch that is factored in is hardly noticeable. But you take that same flinch out to 300 yards and I'll bet you run the risk of a wounded poorly hit deer.

That being said, I have been shooting a 7mm mag out to those distances to achieve those higher energy levels, but you are right most of the people that have responded to this question seem to come up with different variations of the .284. And yes I've looked very close at a new purchase and the .280 rem was very high on the list. However premium factory ammo is hard to find especially if the new gun doesn't like what I like. I think it comes down to this, maybe those energy levels that were shoved down my throat over the years were a bit much, if I can load my .308 from 150-180 grain premium bullet, sight it in at 2.5 inches high at 100 yards and the drop is only -8.5 at 300 yards, and the energy is only 1400 lbs ,but if I can practice enough at the range with that gun and bullet not having to worry about excessive recoil, have I not achieved a potential answer to my question? And after the awesome responses to this post, the reality is, there really isn't a need for that kind of energy to ethically harvest a deer, and if you feel you need that energy for what ever reason, your going to need to step up in recoil. But some guys have really opened my eyes with whats really needed and the TKO, etc. Great stuff here guys. I've been hunting for a while, but I always learn something new, and I love getting honest opinions.
Deerhunter10

mattmillerrx · « **Reply #35 on:** July 02, 2008, 12:31:41 AM »

I hunt western Oklahoma, are you moving there or just hunting there? I have to say most of my shots have been under 100yards and the ones over that have not been over 200. I know it is wide open country and you can see in some places over a mile but those long shot are just not needed if you do a little scouting then you will not need over 100 yard shot. I think I mentioned earlier that I am now hunting with a .44 mag marlin and trying to keep the deer inside of 75 Yard's and that is sitting on the ground next to a clump of grass or a tumble weed or a tree if I am lucky enough to have one near by. I will watch deer at 200-500 Yard's and wait until they are about 80 or so to shoot this was with my .270. I hunt primarily in Beckham County, some in Roger Mills. Check out the new hunting in Oklahoma forum or PM me for help with setting up for closer shots with our lack of cover. I use what ever I can find and occasionally a blind if the weather is bad, I like to be out in the open with just enough cover to shoulder a rifle without getting caught. I also bow hunt the same places on the ground, a little more cover is need to draw a bow but we are talking 20 yrd shots so you just have to get creative.

I know guys using calibers from .223 ( not my pick), .243 ( getting better)-on up--25-06, .270, 6mm, 30-06 are probably the most common among my hunting circle.

I am with you on not wounding game which is why I like em in close plus it is a bit more of a challenge too.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #36 on:** July 02, 2008, 02:12:54 AM »

Bullet weight is a big factor in recoil. Try 120 grain bullets in the 7 mag, it will make a difference.

Cheese

beemanbeme · « **Reply #37 on:** July 02, 2008, 06:15:00 AM »

120gr bullet in a 7mag? You are kidding, right?

Freezer · « **Reply #38 on:** July 02, 2008, 08:18:23 AM »

After reading allot of these post I believe you shoot enough to justify reloading. Accuracy and recoil are your main concerns. Both can be controlled through rolling your own. Every gun has it's quarks and you can tailor a load to optimise your guns performance by hand loading. I hand load 135gr Sierra Game Kings in a 30-06 for a friend who is recoil sensitive with IMR 3031. It's a great light recoil deer load that he's used to 300 yards and it has light recoil. By the same token you could keep your 7 Mag and down load it to 280 specs use a liter bullet and reduce the recoil by hand loading. (yes a 120gr or 130 gr in a 7 Mag) All you'll need is a chronograph to check the velocity after you find the most accurate, lite recoil load to calculate the trajectory (rent one at the range).
Recoil is calculated by three things. Bullet weight, powder weight and weapon weight. There is a difference between felt recoil and actual recoil. Some would argue that the burning rate of the powder will effect felt recoil but that doesn't show in scientific data. Muzzle blast is another variable in felt recoil that doesn't pan out in the scientific data but it can contribute to flinch. Design of the stock is another factor and I hold to this thought. The straight or saddle stocks seems to kick allot worse than a pistol grip stocks and IMHO a stock that is too long will also increase felt recoil.
As for the 308, I load 165 gr. Sierra Game Kings at 2900fps (chronied) and hold 1" at 200 yards. My brother shoots a 260 Rem and can do the same with less recoil using 130gr. bullets.
IMHO if you don't want to hand load, 260, 308 or 270. Take up hand loading and get 6.5x55, 7-08 or 280. In these assending orders of recoil and my personal preference. Or you can start hand loading for your 7 Mag and have fun seeing what you can make it do

Cheesehead · « **Reply #39 on:** July 02, 2008, 08:32:02 AM »

YES, a 120 grain in a 7 mag. Why not? I have done it many times for DEER. They all achieved total penetration, and none bounced off the DEER.

Cheese

RaySendero · « **Reply #40 on:** July 02, 2008, 01:05:25 PM »

Quote from: Freezer on July 02, 2008, 08:18:23 AM

.....
As for the 308, I load 165 gr. Sierra Game Kings at 2900fps (chronied) and hold 1" at 200 yards. My brother shoots a 260 Rem and can do the same with less recoil using 130gr. bullets.
.....

Freezer, That's a pretty spiffy 308 win. load! What is it?

banen · « **Reply #41 on:** July 02, 2008, 04:07:00 PM »

My top 5 choices in order would be
308 (I consider to be the best all around Whitetail Cartridge)
280 (wish I had one )
270
30-06
7-08

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #42 on:** July 02, 2008, 05:47:05 PM »

Cheese,
LOL.

Beeman,
Cartridges of the world had a load of a 120grain either Nosler, or sierra 12 with IMI 4350 runniing 3350 out the tube with 65 grains of powder for a leaving energy of 2991.
In comparison the 257 Weatherby pushing the same weight pill is 3200. the 257 is for sure a deer killing machine. the 257 WBY Mag will have a better sectional desity but will have more recoil as more of the bullet is locked into the lands and grooves giving it a higher recoil factor and will have less than a 30-06 with a 150 grain pill at 3000 fps that only has 2900 Foot pounds at the end of the tube and will not have the laser trajectory of the 7mm Mag with the lighter bullet. Again we are talking about deer not Elk and the 120 will put one down out to 300 yards. Heck I'd rather shoot a 125 grain 30-30 round strait than a 140 grain 7mm Mag just 3 degrees off due to recoil.

nilescoyote · « **Reply #43 on:** July 02, 2008, 11:01:21 PM »

Quote from: tn_junk on June 29, 2008, 02:27:39 PM

.308 Winchester.
May not quite get the FP's at 300 but it will do the job.

alan

+1 I would also look at 260, 7-08 handloaded with berger vld's bullets

Lone Star · « **Reply #44 on:** July 03, 2008, 02:44:53 AM »

Disregarding the fpe requirement, I too favor the 7-08 or .308 - and I own neither at the moment. I'd throw in the .260 but I own one.

I have to disagree with the entire premise of using the infamous Taylor Knock Out value approach in the attempt to quantify the killing power of various cartridges on medium game. This has become a sort of cottage industry in recent years, and it seems to be accepted by many hunters as gospel. After all, John Taylor shot a lot of elephants - he's GOT to know what he's talking about!

Well, he does (did). Unfortunately, what he talks about in his books has precious little to do with hunting North American game with expanding bullets:

"I do not pretend that they [TKOs] represent "killing power"; but they do give an excellent basis from which any two rifles may be compared from the point of view of the actual knock-down blow, or punch, inflicted by the bullet on massive, heavy-boned animals such as elephant, rhino and buffalo". (African Rifles and Cartridges, pg. xii)

Not quite what most hunters THINK he said, is it? For those few who bother to actually read what Taylor had to say, it is clear that his TKO formula only applies to the knockdown ability of headshots into large African game with non-expanding bullets. Trying to make such a formula fit something for which it was never designed (body shots into medium game with expanding bullets) is a futile exercise, and seems to be an attempt to add credibility to the pet opinions of writers wanting to ride "piggyback" on the name of a famous hunter/author.

Most readers would be very surprised to know that for medium game hunting with expanding bullets Taylor wrote that kinetic energy was as good an indicator of killing power as any other. And this from the pen of a hunter ( poacher actually ) with far more experience than most of us will ever have. Do we believe him when he says kinetic energy is a good indicator of killing power? Do we accept that his TKO formula only applies to head-shots on very large animals with non-expanding bullets? Or do we continue to miss-quote him and insist that TKO quantifies killing power on deer?

.

K.K · « **Reply #45 on:** July 03, 2008, 05:06:54 AM »

IF you like short actions, then the .308 class (7/08, etc.) I have always liked the good old .270. Mild recoil, flat shooting, and accurate. Powerful enough for any deer ever fawned at any reasonable range with good shot placement.

Freezer · « **Reply #46 on:** July 03, 2008, 06:34:53 AM »

Ray, I'll PM the load.

deerhunter10 · « **Reply #47 on:** July 03, 2008, 10:44:50 PM »

MattM I'm flying into Oklahoma for a four day hunt around the the Arnett area. I spoke with the guy that has the lease I'm hunting on, and he said the avg shot is little over the 200 yard plus mark, and he's had hunters take deer at 400. There is little cover and a few blinds scattered about. I'm gonna do my best to get as close as possible but I was looking for something that would do the trick out to 300-350 yards. I know my 7mm mag will but as I've stated before I really like to shoot a lot at the range, and I'm just getting ready to get my 2 new shotguns set up for their deer hunt in Michigan. And I think my surgically repaired shoulder seems to be able to take less and less abuse each year. That's why I posted this question about a deer only gun with mild to medium recoil. I like the .308 idea but I personally have not spoke to many people that use the gun out to those longer distances, until some of the feedback on this forum. I would say 80% of the people in my hunting circle use 7mm mag's with an occ .270 thrown in there.

What I think is funny is what people consider heavy recoil. I had one gun dealer tell me that the 300wsm is somewhat mild in it's recoil same as my 7mm mag but with much better performance. Well the felt recoil on my gun is about 22lbs. I spoke with Ty at Barnes Bullets and had him run the numbers and the felt recoil on the 300wsm is pushing almost 30lbs, that's about 30% plus more recoil. That's why you have to look before you leap. Again alot of good opinions here and alot to think about.
Deerhunter10

BBF · « **Reply #48 on:** July 04, 2008, 04:55:47 AM »

Just a short comment on the 270Win. There are 140 gr bullets available as a good compromise between the 130 and 150 gr loads

beemanbeme · « **Reply #49 on:** July 04, 2008, 06:03:03 AM »

120gr bullet from a 7mag?? you are kidding right?

Cheesehead · « **Reply #50 on:** July 04, 2008, 07:28:26 AM »

Again, I am not kidding, if I were it would be a joke and this load is no joke. Shot a truck load of deer with it, no kidding. Been there done that, no kidding. What is so hard to understand about it? I do not understand the confusion, no kidding.

Cheese

Freezer · « **Reply #51 on:** July 04, 2008, 07:35:48 AM »

Beemanbeme, you asked the same question twice! You seem to have some disdain with the thought of using a 120 gr bullet in the 7 Mag,. Would you please share your thoughts on the subject with us?

Brithunter · « **Reply #52 on:** July 05, 2008, 01:56:44 AM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on July 04, 2008, 06:03:03 AM

120gr bullet from a 7mag?? you are kidding right?

Actually you might like to try the Speer 115 grain HP in the 7mm

a friend uses this a lot and yep it's drops them on the spot. Oh he lives in Alaska and says it's dynamite on cariboo. His rifle is a wildcat 7x300 which I believe is similar to the 7mm Weatheby in perfomance

.

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #53 on:** July 05, 2008, 05:59:59 AM »

30 06 with fusion 165 .. why .. just cause i think folks go out of there way to go different than the 30 06 ..in other wds its not the in thing right now..
but heck we gotta sell more types o rifles than the 06.. what would be the point of putting an big article in one of the magazines about th 06 .. heck its already proved itsel over an over..my opinion the only improvement was the 308 ,and that was for machine gun function..of course im biased as im having an affair with my savage right now..
i think shes perfect ,with the 165 fusion.. now thats lovesick aint it..

now yall don t tell my wife ,no reason to see her hurt about this

beemanbeme · « **Reply #54 on:** July 05, 2008, 06:21:29 AM »

Simply stated, a magnum was created to send a GREATER weight of metal downrange at a usable velocity. I find the thought of shooting a 120gr bullet from a 7mag akin to driving a tack with a sledge hammer. Obviously, it will work but there are so many other tools better suited to the job. Other than some sort of boyhowdylookwhaticando braggin rights around the water cooler, what is gained? Certainly nothing in useful energy nor trajectory.

If it is your only rifle and you hunt only WT deer, the load may be a good one for that task, however, you certainly can't tell me that it would work any better than a 160gr bullet. But then, the question is asked, why are we lugging a 7mag if we only hunt WT deer?

Freezer · « **Reply #55 on:** July 05, 2008, 07:39:52 AM »

The man who posted the question has had shoulder surgery and doesn't want the heavy recoil. He owns a 7 mag. Why buy another rifle (I can't believe I said that) when you can make the one you own shoot deer very well with less recoil? Basically it can be a more versatile gun by down loading and up loading when you need it for a specific situation. I load 135 gr Sierra Game King boat tails with IMR 3031 in a 30-06 for a friend who's now recoil sensitive. He didn't used to be and he loves his rifle and shoots it very well. He could shoot 180s but why? 135's drop deer like a lightning strike at 350 yards. I also load 135gr RN for his 94 Win. If you hand load there's no reason to tolerate more recoil than necessary.
The 7 mag is hard to beat as a bean field deer gun. Close range they suck.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #56 on:** July 05, 2008, 08:05:04 AM »

The 120 grain bullet is about reducing recoil in this example. And I am not kidding.

I typically use a 160 grian Partition for deer.

I bought the 7mm Mag as an all around big game rifle, white tail included, it works very well at all ranges.

I am sure of this.

Cheese

Brithunter · « **Reply #57 on:** July 05, 2008, 09:48:32 AM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on July 05, 2008, 06:21:29 AM

Simply stated, a magnum was created to send a GREATER weight of metal downrange at a usable velocity. I find the thought of shooting a 120gr bullet from a 7mag akin to driving a tack with a sledge hammer. Obviously, it will work but there are so many other tools better suited to the job. Other than some sort of boyhowdylookwhaticando braggin rights around the water cooler, what is gained? Certainly nothing in useful energy nor trajectory.

If it is your only rifle and you hunt only WT deer, the load may be a good one for that task, however, you certainly can't tell me that it would work any better than a 160gr bullet. But then, the question is asked, why are we lugging a 7mag if we only hunt WT deer?

Errrrrr actually the idea of a lighter bullet at higher velocity is not new and predates the name magnum by many years. They were of course the Express rifles but equally of course all those folks were wrong and only heavy bullets work (see quote above) and none of the people shooting express rifles or duplicating their ideas with more modern cartridges have absolutly no experience in the game fields

Of course a Magnum is just a larger vessel and was "borrowed" from the Champagne and wine industry.

As to why a person should have and use a 7mm Magnum for deer hunting? I wonder why the 7mm Rem Mag is such a popular cartridge in the US when obviously it is not needed for a mere Whitetailed deer!

beemanbeme · « **Reply #58 on:** July 05, 2008, 10:33:42 AM »

As I said, if it is your only rifle,then you have little choice. Even if it were my only rifle, I certainly wouldn't lug it around for long to shoot WT deer before it was traded off on a 7-08 or something of that sort.

I don't know if "magnum" originated in europe or here as a term to denote a larger than normal cartridge. The H&H was originally called a Super. The use of a light bullet at high velocity is fairly new (all things are relative) because of bullet technology. The early attempts at driving light for calibre bullets at hyper velocities in a hunting application were met with poor results or outright failure. Roy Weatherby's hype for his rifles did not help matters. My personal opinion is I just can't understand driving a hunting bullet a pointless 3300-3500fps. What is gained? Puleese don't tell me trajectory.

If you are loading the 120gr bullet down to @ 2500-2600fps then you may be doing something but you're still dragging around a rifle that is considerably heavier than say a model 7 in .260 or 7-08 (in which BTW I shoot 140gr bullets)

The 7mag's attraction among the know ledgable is it's relatively light recoil, it's wide application, and it's inherent accuracy. But also, one could ask why, in America, are V8's and loud tailpipes in favour?

Brithunter · « **Reply #59 on:** July 05, 2008, 12:11:25 PM »

Well actually I have no time for Weatherby or his rifles but that's just a personal opinion but then again he was late upon the scene .............................. way late. Sir Chales Ross and Charles Newton were way before and did a better job.

I believe that is was in the US that "Magnum" was applied to the Holland & Holland cartridge. Now one reason that lighter for calibre bullets have taken a long time to be accepted after the Black Powder era was that Patched as metal jacketed bullets were termed were not up to withstanding the high velocites that were now obtainable so heavy bullets were the norm as they traveled slower and held together.