Author Topic: Deer cartridge only ??????  (Read 10926 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #150 on: September 02, 2008, 09:44:23 AM »
At 63 I don't feel I'm being sold a bill of goods I just like to try out new things (Ok guns mostly) from time to time so buy lots of different ones just to play around with. Heck I don't hunt enough anymore to worry about having more than one hunting rifle so sure can't explain all the various deer and/or big game capable guns laying around based on that. Mostly I just like having guns so buy and trade for a bunch cuz it pleases me to do so.


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Offline Swampman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #151 on: September 02, 2008, 09:51:13 AM »
I'm picking up my new .357 NEF Handi Rifle this afternoon.  I bought it because I wanted something quite and cheap to shoot.  I don't want to wake the neighbors up when the looters come. ;D
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #152 on: September 02, 2008, 10:34:24 AM »
A QUIET .357 Magnum? You must live in a different universe than me.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #153 on: September 02, 2008, 11:57:04 AM »
With 148 grain HB Wadcutters in .38 Special cases and a dab of Bullseye ;D
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #154 on: September 02, 2008, 02:16:11 PM »
I'm picking up my new .357 NEF Handi Rifle this afternoon.  I bought it because I wanted something quite and cheap to shoot.  I don't want to wake the neighbors up when the looters come. ;D

Cast bullets and a "dab of Bullseye" would have let you do the same thing with your "perfect" .30-06, would you not?  Given that, you will never recover the cost of the NEF, so I guess you got sold a bill of goods.  Either that or your .30-06 is not as perfect as you claim.  LOL
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #155 on: September 02, 2008, 02:25:08 PM »
Plinking guns, and hunting rifles are not the same thing.  I can shoot the Handi for less than 5 cents a shot.  That's how I recover my money.  The Handi is also my Bug Out gun.

There is no better (deer sized game) hunting rifle than the Remington Model 700 in .30-06.

The only other logical bolt action caliber for North Anmerica is the .223.

The last logical caliber is the .375 H&H (but not for North America)

I personally would want them all in Remington 700s.

A .22, A good inline muzzleloader,  and a 12 gauge shotgun make sense for those who actually hunt and eat what they kill.

If I could only own one gun it would be a Remington Model 700 in .30-06.

"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Freezer

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #156 on: September 02, 2008, 05:40:23 PM »
   If I could only have one gun I think it would be a 30-06 too..... But I shoot a Rem 700 in 280 and will put it against you 06 any day.... I hand load!  As for your NEF who do you think your talking to?  First you have to clean and break that barrel in!  It will take at least 100 rounds (jacketed) just to smooth it up!  I own five NEF barrels not including shotgun.  There isn't a one that will hold a candle to any other gun in my locker!  Not even my old 94 Win in 30-30!  I can load it for about as much as my 357.  Heck my NEF 45LC won't even hold minute of Barn!
   I have a Savage 99f in 308 topped with a 2x7 Leupold.  I believe it's a perfect carry gun and will shoot it to 400 yards.  With 165 gr Sierra bullets I generate 2900fps and hold sub MOA.  My .280 will best it but at the cost of carry weight.  The 300 Savage was invented to compete with the 06 and in a 99f I dropped a nice Pa whitetail at 281 yards with a neck shot.  All that said I don't like recoil.  I'll hunt blacktail with a Rem model 7 in 7TCU this year, why because out to two hundred yards it will best both of my favorite deer guns (note my favorite...not my only deer guns).
    Get over yourself!  Rem 700 in 06 is a great combo but there is an advantage of having guns over a wife.  If you go out with another woman your in trouble....hunt with another rifle and your adventurous.
    A gun never killed an animal.  The hunter did!  Some folks rant about their .243 almost as much as you do the 06.  Move to Berkeley!  Your about as closed minded as Berkeleyite liberals.  You have another thing in common with the liberals, forget the facts...you just like to hear yourself talk :P

Offline Swampman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #157 on: September 02, 2008, 11:39:15 PM »
I don't break barrels in.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #158 on: September 03, 2008, 03:51:31 AM »
Plinking guns, and hunting rifles are not the same thing.  I can shoot the Handi for less than 5 cents a shot.  That's how I recover my money.
My point, which you appear to have missed completely although it is a simple one, is that you can laod plilnkers for the .30-06 as cheaply or very nearly so as you can a .357.  I load my .45-70 with cast for plinking purposes, driving a 300g bullet at 1167fps and 350g bullets at 1097fps for 5-10 cents a shot depending on the bullets I use.

Even if the .30-06 ran 10 cents, which would be high, you would have to shoot 3,000 rounds to recover the cost of a $150 iron-sighted NEF.  At 8 cents 5,000 rounds would be required.  Either way, that’s a lot of plinking.

If your .30-06 was the “perfect rifle” as you claim, you would have no need for the NEF.

(By the way, for defensive purposes I’ll take my Marlin .45-70 or .30-30 and 5 reduced=power loads in the chamber over a single-shot NEF any day.)

Quote
The Handi is also my Bug Out gun.
Really?  Why not take the .30-06, the “perfect rifle”?

Quote
There is no better (deer sized game) hunting rifle than the Remington Model 700 in .30-06.
For a multi-purpose cartridge the .30-06 is hard to beat – one reason I own 3 of them.  But this thread is about dedicated deer cartridges and for that purpose many would choose a .270 Win as it provides plenty of deer-killing power, shoots flatter and generates less recoil.

If you want to beat your shoulder up for no advantage or gain in the end result, feel free to do so.

Quote
The only other logical bolt action caliber for North Anmerica is the .223.
Really? Such a cartridge would be illegal for big game hunting in many states.  Here in Colorado a .243 is the legal minimum.  To avoid jail or other unpleasantries I suggest a good argument could be made for a .243 or larger.  Based on sales of .243’s, .25-06s and other low-recoiling cartridges, many people would agree and so vote with their money.
Quote

The last logical caliber is the .375 H&H (but not for North America)
Now there’s a practical deer-only cartridge!
Quote
I personally would want them all in Remington 700s.
Feel free to get all the Remington’s you want – no one cares.
Quote
A .22, A good inline muzzleloader,  and a 12 gauge shotgun make sense for those who actually hunt and eat what they kill.

If I could only own one gun it would be a Remington Model 700 in .30-06.

Got a couple .22’s, a couple muzzlestuffers (including a Remington), and a couple 12 gauge shotguns (also including a Remington), but I wouldn’t consider keeping the muzzlestuffers over my bolt or lever guns.
For many years I did own only one centerfire rifle and it was a 7mm Rem Mag.  A .30-06 would have offered nothing of value and in fact for my purposes could not do what the 7mm RM could do.

The idea that the .30-06 is the “perfect” cartridge is meaningless without context.  While it may be “perfect” for you (tell me again why you bought the NEF?) it generates more recoil than many hunters are willing to put up with, cannot shoot as flat as some of its siblings or other sub-.30 cartridges, and is no more deadly on deer.  Many hundreds of thousands of hunters have voted with their wallet for the best cartridge for their purposes and while the .30-06 remains at the top of the list, overall there are more who vote against it than for it.
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #159 on: September 03, 2008, 04:41:19 AM »
I've explained all this as carefully as I can.  For the most part I've found if you have to explain the .30-06 (or the 700 Remington)there's no point in trying.

It's a good thing there are tons of folks like yourself who buy on a whim.  It keeps big companies in business & CEOs rich.  I have to buy what works.


"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Country Boy

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #160 on: September 03, 2008, 07:56:58 AM »
 Well after 65 yrs of actually hunting deer and other critters. It still boils down to putting the bullet in the right place. For deer only it's hard to beat the .308 look at the new Speer book. I like short  quick actions of most kinds if it fits my body. Just bought a Ruger Hawkeye .358

Offline Swampman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #161 on: September 03, 2008, 11:04:07 AM »
I'm sorry! ::)
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #162 on: September 03, 2008, 11:50:39 AM »
I'm picking up my new .357 NEF Handi Rifle this afternoon.  I bought it because I wanted something quite and cheap to shoot.  I don't want to wake the neighbors up when the looters come. ;D

Cast bullets and a "dab of Bullseye" would have let you do the same thing with your "perfect" .30-06, would you not?  Given that, you will never recover the cost of the NEF, so I guess you got sold a bill of goods.  Either that or your .30-06 is not as perfect as you claim.  LOL

  BINGO!!!  We have a winner here... lol lol

  DM

Offline Swampman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #163 on: September 03, 2008, 11:56:45 AM »
I'll let you fellows engage in your sophomoric humor.  No point was made by the post.  In fact the point was missed completely.

If you want one rifle for deer that will work on everything else too, get a .30-06.  If you continue in the hobby long enough, you'll figure that out for yourself.  All the rest are also rans. 
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Freezer

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #164 on: September 03, 2008, 01:54:38 PM »
    "I'll let you fellows engage in your sophomoric humor."  You a legend in your own mind. 

    The rifle doesn't kill deer, the cartridge doesn't kill deer, the hunter does!

    You would like others to believe your opinion without acknowledging  other view points or even documenting your points of logic.  You believe only in what you feel, forget the truth it only clutters up what I believe. 

    You have yet in all your ramblings come up with any stats to support your "beliefs"
   
    That said I'm off this post, to debate with you is to have a battle of whits with an unarmed man.

    Your the fool that GUN DIGEST MAGIZINE spoke of.
     
    There is no one gun that does it all nor is there a perfect deer rifle or caliber.  Terrain changes, shot distance changes and so does the species of deer. 

   I'll be very happy for the rest of my life with just one woman but not with just one deer rifle!

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #165 on: September 03, 2008, 02:12:36 PM »
I'll let you fellows engage in your sophomoric humor.  No point was made by the post.  In fact the point was missed completely.

If you want one rifle for deer that will work on everything else too, get a .30-06.  If you continue in the hobby long enough, you'll figure that out for yourself.  All the rest are also rans. 


Only the soft-headed missed the humor in Drilling Man's post.

This thread is about a deer-only cartridge - not a cartridge "that will work on everything else too".
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #166 on: September 03, 2008, 02:22:53 PM »
"Terrain changes, shot distance changes and so does the species of deer."

And the .30-06 will cleanly do the job in every instance.  The others mentioned may do the job on deer most of the time, but they aren't 1/2 the cartridge the .30-06 is.  The freedom to hunt deer at all, is because of the .30-06.   
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline john keyes

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #167 on: September 03, 2008, 03:02:42 PM »
But this thread is about dedicated deer cartridges and for that purpose many would choose a .270 Win as it provides plenty of deer-killing power, shoots flatter and generates less recoil.

If you want to beat your shoulder up for no advantage or gain in the end result, feel free to do so.


At any time I can turn my .30-06 into a ".270" by making up some .30-06 rounds with 125 gr bullets.
Though taken from established manufacturers' sources and presumed to be safe please do not use any load that I have posted. Please reference Hogdon, Lyman, Speer and others as a source of data for your own use.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #168 on: September 03, 2008, 03:33:30 PM »
I've explained all this as carefully as I can.  For the most part I've found if you have to explain the .30-06 (or the 700 Remington)there's no point in trying.

It's a good thing there are tons of folks like yourself who buy on a whim.  It keeps big companies in business & CEOs rich.  I have to buy what works.


I have a Ruger, Remington and Savage .30-06.  I prefer the Ruger but the others are OK, too.

What makes you think I “buy on a whim”?  I’m not the one that went out and bought a .357 NEF to do what I  could do with my “perfect” .30-06s.

The fact is my purchases are well-considered and over half involve used firearms, the purchase of which doesn’t do anything to the financial benefit of the gun companies or their CEO’s. 
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #169 on: September 03, 2008, 03:48:38 PM »
I thought about the .357 Handi after thinking about it for 8 years.

I have 2000 empty cases to used with it.  I see it the same way I would a .22 rifle.  Plinking guns have nothing to do with hunting.

The Remington Model 700 in .30-06 remains the perfect rifle.

I'm keep hoping you're going to get to your point.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #170 on: September 03, 2008, 03:58:49 PM »
But this thread is about dedicated deer cartridges and for that purpose many would choose a .270 Win as it provides plenty of deer-killing power, shoots flatter and generates less recoil.

If you want to beat your shoulder up for no advantage or gain in the end result, feel free to do so.


At any time I can turn my .30-06 into a ".270" by making up some .30-06 rounds with 125 gr bullets.

No, you really can’t.  By doing so you give up sectional density and ballistic coefficient.  If you want to drop the bullet weight in the .30-06 you can do the same thing for the .270 Win, and the .270 will continue to shoot flatter with less recoil.

I can shoot a 110g Barnes TSX (BC .323, SD .205) at 3542fps with 53.5g powder per Barnes #4.  The 130g TSX  in the .30-06 (BC .340, SD .196) can be pushed to 3308fps with 60.5g powder per the same manual.  Zeroed for a 6” diameter target, the .270 Win wins the Maximum Point Blank Range race by 18 yards (332 vs 315).  The .270 Win also wins the recoil comparison (15.69 foot-lbs to 19.49 foot-pounds).

At 550 yards the .270 Win still carries over 1,000fpe.  Guess the .30-06 wins this comparison, coming in at 1073 fpe.  Both will kill a deer equally dead but the .270 Win will do so with less drop at any rangeand significantly less recoil.

Coyote Hunter
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #171 on: September 03, 2008, 04:01:31 PM »
Sectional density and ballistic coefficient look good on paper (and sell rifles to the unsuspecting novice)but they don't put meat in the freezer.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline john keyes

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #172 on: September 03, 2008, 04:15:47 PM »
Thanks CH, I know you know and I enjoy "arguing" with you because I know I'm fixin to be taken to school.

 ;D
Though taken from established manufacturers' sources and presumed to be safe please do not use any load that I have posted. Please reference Hogdon, Lyman, Speer and others as a source of data for your own use.

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #173 on: September 03, 2008, 04:23:41 PM »
Sectional density and ballistic coefficient look good on paper (and sell rifles to the unsuspecting novice)but they don't put meat in the freezer.

Kinda like the difference between a .270 and 30-06 doesn't put meat in the freezer?  ::)

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #174 on: September 03, 2008, 04:41:25 PM »
Sectional density and ballistic coefficient look good on paper (and sell rifles to the unsuspecting novice)but they don't put meat in the freezer.

  If you don't think "sectional density and ballistic coefficient" have anything to do with putting meat in the freezer, your even dumber than i though you was. lol

  The more you post, the more you sound like some kid that's messing with "daddys" puter...

  DM

Offline zorak

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #175 on: September 03, 2008, 05:29:19 PM »
Like alot of other guy the .270win is a well rounded caliber for deer and I feel the .264win mag is a good round also.Both have the punch to take down all deer and most elk.

Doug

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #176 on: September 03, 2008, 05:32:45 PM »
I thought about the .357 Handi after thinking about it for 8 years.

I have 2000 empty cases to used with it.  I see it the same way I would a .22 rifle.  Plinking guns have nothing to do with hunting.

The Remington Model 700 in .30-06 remains the perfect rifle.

I'm keep hoping you're going to get to your point.

Is the .30-06 the "perfect" cartridge or not?  Guess not, if you have to add qualifiers and exceptions.

Repeating your mantra that a Remington M700 in .30-06 is the "perfect rifle" won't make it so - no matter how many times you repeat it.  "Perfect" is a subjective judgement and is meaningless without context.  Different people have different needs and preferences, all of which are equally valid to yours.  And those preferences and needs dictate what the "perfect rifle" is for them.  Quite often it is not the same as what you choose.

In my case, for example, I prefer Mauser style extraction.  A rifle without it could never make it as my "perfect rifle".
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #177 on: September 03, 2008, 05:43:56 PM »
Thanks CH, I know you know and I enjoy "arguing" with you because I know I'm fixin to be taken to school.

 ;D

John -

Its always nice to discuss things with someone who has an open mind.  There's been more than one occasion when people have used logic and/or science to prove the errors of my ways, so I'm certainly not immune to mistakes and always willing and eager to learn.

Better luck next time, though!  ;)
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #178 on: September 03, 2008, 05:55:54 PM »
Sectional density and ballistic coefficient look good on paper (and sell rifles to the unsuspecting novice)but they don't put meat in the freezer.

Sectional Density and Ballistic Coefficient are simply means of describing the pre-impact characteristics of a bullet.  As such they are tools to be used or abused.  In that sense they are no different than bullet weight, diameter, construction, shape or muzzle velocity.  None of these characteristics "put meat in the freezer" by themselves.

That said, SD and BC can help predict downrange behavior with a surprising degree of accuracy when given bullets of otherwise similar characteristics.

The fact there is there is very little difference between the .270 Win and .30-06 - certainly not enough to substantiate your ridiculous claim that “the .270 Win isn't half the cartridge the .30-06 is”.

Coyote Hunter
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Deer cartridge only ??????
« Reply #179 on: September 03, 2008, 11:51:52 PM »
"Gunwriters skate around the edges of this argument by weaseling. Many claim both cartridges are entirely adequate for North American big game. neither truly having the edge over the other, which is ballistically false. Personal preference has a lot to do with choosing one round over the other. A hunter simply likes .270 better, or the '06, and that's that. The .270 lover might argue ballistic coefficients and trajectory. After all, a the .270 compared to a 30-caliber bullet of the same weight gives the edge to the smaller diameter projectile. For example, a 130-grain .270 Hornady SST has a sectional density of .242 with a ballistic coefficient of .460, while a .30-caliber 130-grain bullet goes .196 sectional density and not much better than .300 for ballistic coefficient. Ah, but when all of the romance is removed and bare ballistic facts stand naked before us, the .30-06 wins the prize from ranges three feet past a hunter's boots to 300-yards and farther. That's the unvarnished truth, like or not. Sighted in for 200 yards, the 130-grain missile drops only 6 1/2" at 300. Meanwhile, getting 3,075 fps with a 150-grain bullet in the '06 is no big trick. Sighted in for 200 yards, this projectile falls 7 1/2" below the line of sight at 300, making the two equal in trajectory in real-life hunting situations (scratch the inch difference).

The .270 delivers a little less recoil and shoots a shred flatter, but for delivered energy downrange, its parent cartridge holds sway, ,just as P.O. Ackley, the wildcat man, said in his 1959 Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders. "It will be seen that the .30/06 is a lot more gun over average hunting ranges than the .270 with equal weight bullets." I can't buy into the last part about equal weight bullets. The '06 has more starch than the .270 with its heavier bullets at good velocity. A note to the wise: If you own a .270 you do well with, never sell it. Nonetheless, Jake wins this one on the basis of pure ballistic fact. See the .270 vs. '06 table."

Sam Fadala

There is no better rifle than the 700 Remington in .30-06.  The novice will cling to the Mauser extractor but it amounts to nothing.  The same can be said for controled round feed.  The 700 Remington will operate perfectly upside down.  When you get some big boy pants, let us know what you think.

"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

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