Author Topic: 356 or 375? (Read 3330 times)

HammerMan/LongbowMan · « **on:** July 24, 2003, 01:51:29 PM »

I'm having a tuff time deciding this one. I have a Winchester Big Bore top eject frame. The action is rated at 52,000 CUP and so are both of the cartridges, but I can't decide if I want a 356 win. or 375 win. Considering that both cartridges were reloaded near max., what would be the best all-around for all North American Game? They both seem to handle the same heavy weight bullets, with the 356 having the nod over light bullets. What cartridge would give the longest shots or better trajectory? I would love to hear some opinions. I'm even up for wildcats, but nothing smaller than 35 cal. I already have a 45-70 and I don't care for the 444 marlin., so a medium bore is what I'm looking for.

Smokey · « **Reply #1 on:** July 25, 2003, 11:13:10 AM »

The .356 is awfully hard to beat for deer and elk inside of 200 yds, and for deer out to 250+. I don't think the .375 has that much range. I've got a Winchester AE Big Bore in .356 and will NEVER get rid of it. Speer makes a pretty decent selection of FP bullets in .35. I personally think the .356 is the best all-around lever cartridge out there.

Enforcer · « **Reply #2 on:** July 26, 2003, 03:00:12 PM »

Its really this simple.The 356win is based on the 358win,but with a rim,and holds less powder due to the deeper seating of bullets to clear in Win M94 and Marlin M336ER(AOL 2.56).The 375Win is based on the 30/30,38/55 case,and hence holds less powder than the 356Win.

But the 375Win has some advantages.One it has larger diameter,for more wallop on game,and hence will have larger entry and exit wounds.Since it has larger diameter it will carry a better Taylor KO,even if driven a little slower in velocity.Its other advantage is it comes in far superior rifles than the 356Win.The 375win also comes in the Ruger #3 and Savage M99A Brush and Saddle rifles.In these rifles it will go step for step with the 356Win in every area,even with less powder capacity.I drive a 260gr Nosler Partition at 2115fps-2576fpe in my 22in barreled Savage M99A Brush Rifle.Which is compariable to the 356Win's 250gr.But is a heavier bullet,with larger diameter and hence has better momentum and Taylor KO.
I have 3 375Wins in Marlin M-375,Ruger #3 and Savage M99A.I just sold my other M-375 and a Win M94 in 375Win.I also have 2 356's.1 is a Marlin M336ER and the other a Win M94AE.

Either is a good choice,but never short change the 375Win.I prefer the 375Wins diameter over the 356Wins velocity.The 375win is a 250yd deer rifle or 200yd elk rifle,in the Ruger and Savage.No problem,you can bank on it! 2 years ago i dropped a 6x5 elk in his tracks at 165yds with my 375win Savage with 235gr Speer SP.

Just to answer the questions of why I say the Ruger #3 and Savage M99A Brush and Saddle Guns are superior to the Win M94 and Marlin M336.Here is your answers!

1st the Ruger and Savage can exceed AOL of the Win M94 and Marlin of 2.56 and go all the way up to 2.90.

2nd the Ruger and Savage can and do handle pressure over 65,000psi,the Marlin and Win M94 can not.

3rd they both come with a 22in barrel,verus the 20in of the Win M94 and Marlin.Giving the Ruger and Savage a automatic 50fps advantage in velocity.

4th the Ruger and Savage both use spitzer bullets for better downrange ballistics and accuracy.Good Day!

Enforcer · « **Reply #3 on:** August 01, 2003, 04:03:32 PM »

Bump to top!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2003, 11:34:59 PM »

since you have only a frame how about a wildcat like the 375jdj or a 375 win improved

Enforcer · « **Reply #5 on:** August 02, 2003, 07:38:33 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale

since you have only a frame how about a wildcat like the 375jdj or a 375 win improved

What is a 375win Improved?It is a straight case.How can it be improved?Only thing that could be done is to lengthed the case.Then it ain't a 375win.

The 375JDJ is a good idea,based on the 444 Marlin case.But one can not use the bullets that it uses when loaded in the single shot handguns the round was made for.The 375JDJ with spitzers has a COL of 3.13.Remember AOL of the Win M94 and Marlin M336 is only 2.56.Action can be reworked to accept longer cartridges,but never that long!Thats in the Win M1895 area.Way out the Win M94,Marlin M336 and Marlin 1895 area.

Buckeye · « **Reply #6 on:** August 03, 2003, 05:15:05 PM »

I like the .356win. better than a 375win.
1) 356 more vel. (in a 20in. barrel)
2)Better SD
3) you can easily turn a Marlin 35Rem. into a .356
4)You can use .308 brass,just neck it up.
5) If you want more frontal area go to a 444M or a 45/70
6) 356win. is simply better than a 375win.(In a 20in. barrel)
7)Speer 220gr.FN 2400 fps. out of a 20in Barrel (.356win)

Enforcer · « **Reply #7 on:** August 04, 2003, 02:35:05 AM »

I agree with alot you said Buckeye,except where did you hear you can get 2400fps out of 20in barrel with 220gr bullet.That is more than Accurate,Speer,and Conley can get out of 356Win with 24in barrels.

I have two 356wins,one in a Win M94 and one in a Marlin M336ER.I have never gotten 2400fps with 220gr,no matter what powder i used.The best i've gotten was 2335fps with 46.5grs of 2520,compressed(very hot load).Generally 2300fps is where you will be,and thats a fact.

Buckeye · « **Reply #8 on:** August 04, 2003, 10:21:14 AM »

Whats up Enforcer, I knew you would answer this post.
I've not tried this load but it is 46gr.s of H335 for 2405 fps.
It is from a article by John Taffin,I normally wouldn't mention a load till I try it but Mr. Taffin is a Top Rate source,This vel. was out of a Win. 94 Bigbore it has a Monte-carlo stock and a 20in. barrel,@ 50 yd.s with a peep sight it was grouping 3 at 7/8 of a inch. I don't have any H335 powder or I would try it . Try it and let us know. I've been tring to trade for a 375 win. in a Marlin for the past few weeks but to no avail. The guy bought it new in 1982? is that when they first come out? I think a 375 with 300 gr. cast would be a nice load.

Enforcer · « **Reply #9 on:** August 04, 2003, 01:14:01 PM »

Hey Buckeye whats up?I'm sure i have tried it in the past,and didn't get anywhere near 2400fps.But I have some and will load some up and chrono them and then post the data.Enforcer

Buckeye · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2003, 03:22:05 PM »

Thanks ,I'm looking foward to your results.

sideironjohn · « **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2003, 12:34:43 AM »

Not sure if you've worked out what to do with this action yet, but here's a wildcat idea for you:
[myself, I'd do it just like this, but in .358 caliber.]
348 Winchester (base dia about .55"), trimmed to 2", necked to .375, shoulder at about 1.475" and .533" diameter, 30 degrees. .355" neck.
With seated bullets, there's about exactly the same capacity as the 350 Rem Mag, only you can load this puppy much hotter (52k CUP instead of 40k or so?)
The 350 gets 2350 fps with a 250gr bullet, so I'd bet you could get about 2500 fps or more with a 270gr .375 bullet (such as Barnes Original FP), and up to 2800 fps in a 225 gr (Hornady Interlock FP).
In other words, more than you'd want in a 7 1/2# rifle!
Here's some ballistics for you:
The 225gr, with an approximate BC of .235 leaves the muzzle at 2800 fps and 3917 fpe. Sighted in at 200 yds,
125yds = +2.3", 2755 fpe
250yds = -3.9", 1880 fpe
300yds = -10.1", 1600fpe
The 270gr, appr BC of .260 going out at 2500 fps and 3816 fpe, 0@200,
125yds = +2.89", 2735 fpe
250yds = -5", 1885 fpe
300yds = -12.9", 1620 fpe

That would be the meanest Big Bore around, I'm sure! Definitely turn some heads. A damn fine elk gun if that's your gig.
-oh, and be sure to put in a good muzzle break!

Enforcer · « **Reply #12 on:** November 09, 2003, 04:31:11 PM »

Just for the record.Went out a couple days ago and tried the H335 in my Win M94AE-XTR and Marlin M336ER both in 356Win.Even going beyond max of 46.0gr of H335,could not get over 2350fps out of either.Chronoed at 15ft,no wind,and 77 degrees.That Taffin is a miracle worker.

Triple4 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 10, 2003, 11:42:16 AM »

I assume that you Handload so heres my .002 the 356 has a lot of different bullets you can use from pistol bullets to rifle bullets and if you choose the Hardcast route then you also have some very good 200gr+ bullets to use that should allow you to hunt anything in North America.
My dislike is it's a bottleneck cartridge and I don't care for bottlenecked cartridges in a lever gun.

The 375 (or better yet the 38-55 in a marlin Cowboy) dosen't have a broad range of good jacketed bullets to choose from, you do have some good Hardcast out there one I like real well is from Bullshop and it's a 280grLFN@ (I use this in a 38-55 Marlin CB so the bullets a .380) but they can make it a .377 for the 375"s and it turns that 375/38-55 up a notch
in the power range, it was not hard for me to get over 1900+fps out of the Cowboy (24"barrel) and the accuracy was outstanding.

I have always gone the bigger bullet route in my lever guns if possible because as a woods rifle a smaller bullet and a few hundred feet a secound more don't mean a thing but a wider bigger bullet does when a bullet meets bone.

Ammo with both are kind of hard to come by not what you would call easy to find off the shelf. I have always wanted to play around with the 356 some day maybe I will.

Tc300mag1 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 10, 2003, 03:21:33 PM »

i have a 375 big bor 94 its ok out to 100 yards but becuse it is a lever action the bullet selection is really limited in it there are 2 right know last time i checked a 220 and 250 in a jacketed bullet

Dand · « **Reply #15 on:** November 11, 2003, 04:28:04 PM »

I know a lady who took a bison at about 70 yards with a 356 - mod 94 win I think. One shot in the ear. Seems like plenty of power to me.

Enforcer · « **Reply #16 on:** November 11, 2003, 07:09:40 PM »

On a varmint hunt a friend of mine made a 80yd one shot kill of a 10 point buck weighting over 200lbs,with a 22LR right near the left ear.Ear shoots or very close to the ear can be fatal by much lesser calibers also.So is not really a testament to a calibers power.

Pop · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2009, 01:13:14 AM »

I prefer the 356 all the way.

AH-1 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2009, 01:35:56 AM »

here is a vote for the 375 win BB 94.I am not saying its better but I have never had to track a deer.boom flop round.I have a early top eject "winchester" and love it.hits hard with jacketed or cast.I have tried alot of powders in the 375 and RL-7 is the answer for velocity and accuracy in "my" rifle.I am also a 375 H&H fan so cast bullets get shot out of both.
pete

280 gr lfngc

Rangr44 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2009, 02:40:33 AM »

[What cartridge would give the longest shots or better trajectory?]

I have both, the .375 when it was first issued, and a .356 20 years later.
The .375 is top-eject, while my .356 is an AE, meaning "scopeable".

As nice as the .375 is to use for brush hunting, the scoped (1-3X20).356 is my "go-to" levergun for shots out to about 300yds - as when hunting along clearcuts, etc.

It's basically a .358 Win in a conventional levergun.

.

mannyrock · « **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2009, 04:10:33 AM »

Based on the fact that you already have a .45-70, I would strongly favor the .356. With regular factory ammo, it gives you a flatter shooting, higher velocity cartridge than the .375, shooting lighter bullets, and creating a nice contrast to your .45-70 (i.e, it becomes your "light rifle").

Why buy a .375 and then spend hours and hours handloading it to make it as flat shooting as the .356, and then end up with a round that is fairly close to your .45-70? Buy something that shoots factory ammo well, and is a nice contast to your .45-70.

Regards,

Mannyrock

AH-1 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2009, 07:01:30 AM »

in all my years of hunting (I am a geezer

) I have only shot 2 deer over 100 yards.
285 yards measured with a bdl in 270

135 yards with a ruger in 7mm mauser.

with the type of hunting I do stalk and brush the 375 win is a winner,if your hunting kansas it might not be what you want

.the 375 win never was intended to be a long range rifle.
pete

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/375-356.htm

Pop · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2009, 05:05:57 PM »

What range would you guess or feel confortable with shooting a bull elk with the 356. The hypothetical load is a 220 Speer at 2350 MV.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #23 on:** July 15, 2009, 03:32:38 AM »

As far away as you can place it in the zone. I'm loading the 220 Speer just about 100 fps faster from my .358 Winchester and I consider it to be a 200 yard rifle but that has more to do with myself than with the load, if I felt confident to make a longer shot I have no doubt the bullet would do its' job. With any rifle, .22 rimfire, muzzleloader, or big game centerfire, I limit my shots to the "point blank range". When you start having to guess hold-over you're on thin ice in my opinion. At 2350 fps your point blank range may be a bit beyond 200 yards but I would reserve that as a margin for error in range estimation.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #24 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:45:21 AM »

if its between those two i go this way. If i was going to shoot mostly cast out of it id go for the 375 for the bigger diameter. If it were going to be a jacketed bullet thing id go with the 356 hands down. Ive killed a few heads of game with the 356 and it hits like a freight train.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #25 on:** July 18, 2009, 05:36:51 AM »

I just sold my 375 Marlin to buy a .358 Winchester and am happy with the deal but I'd have been happy with the .375 if it had just been more accurate but I ran lots of loads through it and the best it could do was about 3 moa and not consistently even that good.

HammerMan/LongbowMan · « **Reply #26 on:** July 23, 2009, 03:19:38 PM »

Talk about reviving a 6 yr old thread from the dead

. I ended getting the 356. I really like it

. I'm getting ready to load up some 140gr pistol bullets for varmints and fun.

I ended up buying a top eject 375 big bore and had a well known gunsmith put a 356 barrel on it to make a top eject 356 big bore. I like traditional style guns, and I just couldn't buy a side eject, rebounding hammer 356, so I had to be different and get what I wanted made. I haven't killed anything with it, because I haven't drawn out for anything in 5 years.

I was thinking about shooting the 140 grainers in the leveraction sillhouette, but I've been having too much fun with the 25-35

.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #27 on:** July 23, 2009, 03:41:44 PM »

Truth be told, there really is not much one can do that the other cannot equal. Flip a coin, you will be happy either way.

I have always held the 35 cals in close regaurd. But the 375Win is also special. I have two Marlins and had a Contender Carbine chambered for it. I have never had a 356, but I also have two 358's and know full well what it can do.

CW

Sweetwater · « **Reply #28 on:** July 23, 2009, 07:09:40 PM »

Congrats on your decision and "new" rifle!
I would be curious in knowing how your 140gr pistol bullets feed?

My 94AE 356 does not like short bullets and I found I had to really work the action with vigor to get any of the pistol bullets to feed without stovepiping.

LFN's it will feed at any speed, as long as the COAL is correct.

Though mine is still a virgin, I believe it will do anything my 8x57mm will do and that has taken several elk out to 265 yards without a hitch.

Regards,
Sweetwater