Old vs. New

[mattmillerrx]

How many of you are like me and prefer the older guns over the new ones? ( I do at least for the most part) I do like some of the new technologies and do buy new guns.  I have just found the old ones to be built better for many reasons. I have a Remington 1100 probably around 10 yrs old now and it has a plastic magizine follow in the tube that has been nothing but problems and actually cause the gun to jam open on the last one out of the magizine tube and takes a bit of manipulation to reload it again.  I have got a new one that is metal and should fix the problem when I get around to putting it in. I have heard marlin is doing the same with there new lever guns.  I am seeing plastic trigger guards and in some cases plastic triggers.  I am also hearing of many guns having to go back to the factory ( this may have been done alot back then too but the problems are worked out on the older ones buy the time I get to them).

I know of the pre 64's and the better metal, although I think this extends to others besides just winchester although they may be different years that they changed to different components or different manufacturing processes to save money.

I think I could go on and on here with changes that have been made over the years but am trying to keep it somewhat general, rather than get into individual guns.

2 questions for ya to ponder:
1. Have you found like me the older ones to be, better made, better wood, tougher guns ( for the most part) and well this part varies due to some being collectors items now but a better deal for the money?

2. Have you found any of the new brands to be putting a gun on the market that matches these old ones?
I have found that CZ is making a good looking gun, pretty wood, seem to be tough too.  I do not own one of there new rifles only an old handgun but they look to meet what these older guns have with a good price.  I have to agree with dad that the new T/C icon looks like a great rifle he thinks it looks like something from his day but with some upgrades.  Again, I have not seen the internal on either of these guns but maybe they will hold up over time and be sought after for years to come.

Just inquiring if anyone agrees or am I too critical on the new stuff. 

[DennisB]

I prefer wood over "plastic" stocks any day, but when it comes to parts that should be steel, well, they should be steel.  Sadly, it's probably a reflection of the times...

[kevthebassman]

I agree with you.  The CZ rifles are tops, by the way.  I love mine and plan to buy more.

[SDS-GEN]

Some things to consider, I don't think today's metals are at all inferior to those used 50-60 years ago, metallurgy has come a long way in the past half century and I've never seen a rifle's steel fail except when improperly used.  Detachable magazines have ALWAYS been the weekest part of any firearm and still are whether they are plastic or steel.  Have you ever broken a plastic part on a rifle that kept it from functioning? Me either.  I find it amusing that so many people bash rifle and shotgun manufacturers for putting on a plastic trigger guard or safety, then talk up a handgun like a Glock or XD which is basically 30-50% plastic.  Times have changed for firearms and I say they have changed for the better.

   You can still get a brand new rifle that is all blued steel and wood, you may have to pay extra for fancy walnut and polished steel but it is available.

[beemanbeme]

Before anyone gets too euphoric about the pre-64 Winchester and some of the other rifles, let's look behind the scenes. While it was very good for the buyer, the  truth was that the Winchester machinery was so worn and out dated that each assembler kept on his bench a box of parts to try and find pieces that would fit the rifle he was putting together. If he couldn't, then a part was filed and hammered into size.  Basically, the pre 64 Model 70 was a one off, hand fitted rifle. They were sold at a loss to be competitive with Remington and Savage. If you remember, this was back when, if a rifle could keep its shots inside of a 2" circle, it was deemed a tack-driving, deer killing machine.  What kept Winchester afloat was the sale of the cheaply made model 94 which, of course, was driven by the cowboy movie craze.  

The use of "horn" (plastic) for trigger guards and such has been traditional in Europe for a long time.  Be that as it may, Americans have a long tradition of screaming for quality but not wanting to pay for it.  A very good case in point is the Remington rifles. Folks cry about the Loss of Quality and then suggest you buy a Savage.  Now tell me that's not a paradox.  I've asked before, if say Remington were to upgrade their wood, hand lap their barrels, replace their trigger guards and floor plates with steel would the average buyer pay @ $1000.00 for the rifle?  NO WAY!  But there are a few buyers that will buy a Rem and send it off to have those things done to it and have it "trued" which can mean a lot or nothing depending on which smith you're talking to, without ever firing it.  And the price ends up greater than any $1000.00.  

I have been buying model 700's for close to 50 years. I don't have any problems with the last one I bought (last CHRISTmas) and I don't have any problems with the ones I bought a loooong time ago.  If there has been a loss in quality, you can't prove it by me. If I knew how to post pictures I'd show you my latest CDL.

I am interested in seeing how well the Icon will do.  If it does well, I am sure it is a niche that Rem is wanting to move into.  It must be a royal pain competing against Savage and Stevens . I don't know how it will match American's buying trends. The American shooters seem to be interested in how MANY guns they own more than the quality.  Which, if you have one day a week to spend at the range, shooting a 30-06 everytime would get tedious.  When I was a kid, my Dad had a "deer" rifle, a shotgun, and a .22. He did not reload and couldn't afford to spend a day a week at the range.

[dukkillr]

I totally agree.  I just bought a "new" shotgun... a 1950s Winchester Model 12 with a 26" IC Barrel and Simmons Rib.  Why? Because it's the best quail gun available today. Sadly most people don't even know a quality gun these days. Just read the forums here and other places and you'll read stories extolling the virtues of Mossbergs and 1200s and whatever.  

The answer to your question:  I own more than one Browning BPS and more than one Benelli auto. If you don't have the patience or the class to own a Model 12 then the next best option is a BPS. They do not shoot as fast, but are just as tough, and more versatile. The much hyped benellis are smooth, fast, and reasonably reliable. They are not as reliable as a pump and I've always suspected that autos lead to poorer accuracy.  

[mattmillerrx]

I did not break the plastic part but it failed and caused the gun to malfunction.  I agree with BPS being a good shotgun.  I have made no mention of glock or the xd although they are liked by many they are not my taste.  I understand that they are made that way to be lighter to carry and that is great and serves a purpose.  But I do not want a plastic part on a  long gun that is nearly all metal, so they can safe a buck, I would rather pay the extra.  This is my personal preference not only on looks but on performace.  I did say I like new technologies but do not think a plastic magizine follow is an improvement but a down graded cheaper part.  I gave nearly 20 bucks for an after market although Remington offered there plastic replacement part for a few dollars less.  I do not think this would add but perhaps 5 bucks to the gun cost at the most and it would not have failed.

I have a browning lite 12 that was my grandpa's and much prefer it to the 1100.  Dad has the same gun that is Japan made and it is also a great gun.  I have always herd the Belgian made guns are better, and dad thinks so too but between these too guns I do not see the differences.  Although his is probably 30+ years old as well. 

 I cannot exactly put my finger on it but I think it is the overall fit, finish, and maybe just the nostalgic feel.

[Brithunter]

Yes I do feel that the older guns are better made and for teh main it's the consumers fault. Especialyl the American consumer  sorry bout that but it seems that Americans especially want it cheap. Now as for wood used today unless you go to a well established custom builder who has had the stock blanks in stocl for a long time then the wood used is kiln dried and not as good as the old method air dried. Firms like Holland & Holland won't offer a stock blank until they had it in stock for at least five years.

The idea of using Horn for trigger guards and bolt knobs is beacuse in extreme cold, yes they do get in it Europe  , Horn does not stick to flesh like meatal does. Now they use thermo plastic  I ahve a modern mauser with a trigger guard and bolt know of thsi palstic, would have preferred metal but they are palstic as is the mag follower.

If you ever get the chance to lift a real classic rifle out of it's stock I am sure you would be amazed at the inletting. The craftsmans work that went into this has to be seen  . I have several rifles made way back, classed as antiques in the US, like a DWM "Plezier" or Special Sporting rifle made for the Boers in about 1897 and a Rigby Mannlcher built on a Mdl 1892 rifle. The firm of BSA was also very good at this quality work despite being a mass producer.

I suppose here in the UK we are not used to the cheap market prices as things have always been expensive here  a new Remington model 700 costs about $1500US and upwards. A good S/H rifle cost around $500-$800 US dependign on make and chambering. Even the "cheap" British guns especially shotguns which normally means SxS are well made and regulated. I brought a low end model by Cogswell & Harrison, the sort aimed at the junior worker heading out in the colonies of the Empire so it's slightly heavier built than a typical English Game gun as it would often be used with heavier loads for larger flowl or even for Wildfowl on the British marshes. Because of it's age it's chambered for the old 2 1/2" cartridges and yes it's a 12 Bore of the Non ejector type.

Last year I acquired a 1955 FN Auto five, the bluing is a little thin and it has signs of slight rust in places, not uncommon here as it likely spent time on the salt marshes after fowl during it's life as we are close to the fens and marshes, however the quality is nice but it's unfair to compare this auto to an English SxS, they are just so different in feel and design.

The CZ & Brno rifles often need a little smoothing of the action but this of course is due to costs    final polishing in the internals of the actions simply cost too much today for the market they are aimed at. Use normally smooths them up! In the past labour was cheaper and customers expectations it seems were higher as the older ones certainly seems to be betetr finished internally.

 So I don't buy new now although there is a limited production semi-custom CZ .243 Win int eh local shop which calls out to me every time I go int here. it had a twisted hammer forged barrel liek the Mannlichers have and a nice walnut stock even if I am nott hat keen on the Germanic cheekpiece  and nice deep blacking. if it was a 222 Rem then I think I would be lost but the 243 does not call to me so much.