Author Topic: More newly manufactured Model 70s? Why? Who needs them? (Read 2288 times)

mannyrock · « **on:** July 03, 2008, 07:07:14 AM »

Dear Guys,

I know what I am about to say is total blasphamy. But before you scorch me with vicious replies, rest assured that I am a big Model 70 fan.

A few posts ago, folks were discussing the news that FN, at its South Carolina plant, is going to start making the Model 70 classic again (or some variant of it). Of course, everyone was cheering and hoping they would start cranking them out.

My question is: Why? Why in the world does anybody think that we need more Model 70s, classic or otherwise, cranked out of any factories? I've been going to four or five gunshows a year, for 35 years, and to be totally candid, I believe that there are now probably 3 or 4 used Model 70s for sale, in very good to excellent condition, in any make or configuraton, for every person in America who may conceivably have a serious interest in buying one. Most of these rifles have probably had 4 boxes of shells or less fired through them. And, unless you are talking about a rare caliber pre-64, they would all cost less than any new Model 70 cranked out by FN.

The Model 70s are ubiquitous. They are everywhere. They are anywhere. There are quite literally MILLIONS of them out there. We don't need "brand new" ones cranked out.

Regards, Mannyrock

MGMorden · « **Reply #1 on:** July 03, 2008, 07:36:18 AM »

For whatever reason, a lot of people are opposed to buying used items. That's who they make new ones for.

Now personally, I've bought a lot of used guns, and certainly don't mind a used one (I don't have a "real" model 70 but I do have a model 670 that I bought used), but I must admit that there is something nice about pulling a pristine gun out of the box and watching it "sparkle"

. For those who want that out of a used gun, it's going to take a reblue (~$125-150) and a stock refinish (don't know how much these run from a gunsmith - I've done several at home that turned out very nice, but not quite factory level).

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #2 on:** July 03, 2008, 07:56:46 AM »

would be better to turn out M-77's the improved mod 70 !

yooper77 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 03, 2008, 08:00:41 AM »

First of all its a money maker, are they going to be labeling them Winchester.

People will flock to them because of the scare of Winchester no longer being made in the U.S.A.

yooper77

MGMorden · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2008, 08:06:40 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 03, 2008, 07:56:46 AM

would be better to turn out M-77's the improved mod 70 !

I must say, that the Ruger's are pretty nice guns. I don't have one, but bought my father one in .270 for Christmas 2 years ago. Had a very nice stock, 3 position bolt locking safety, hinged floorplate, all steel construction, and the best scope mounting system I've seen on a rifle. All in all a beautiful gun. Got it from a local Sports Authority when they were running a clearance on it, AND they had a 10% of anything in the store coupon in the sales flier so I ended up paying around $375 for it.

The downside was in the accuracy department. It tends to come in at around 1.75" to 2" groups at 100 yards. My dad was fine with that as he just shoots for hunting purposes only, but compared to most new rifles today it definately wasn't a tack driver

.

Just wish I could get dad to take better care of the thing. Like I said he's a hunter only, so he generally doesn't believe in cleaning unless he leaves it in the rain (in which case it'll get a quick rub with WD40 to take the rust off). In 2 years of use the gun now looks 15 years old. I'm always trying to "pretty it back up" when I go over there :lol:.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2008, 08:47:43 AM »

might try a different load mine do a bit better with hand loads , but with some loads i see the same groups you see in the 300 wm . the 204 is a tack driver .

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2008, 10:41:22 AM »

I don't believe anyone NEEDS them and apparently not all that many WANT them or else they'd not have stopped making them to begin with. It's all a ploy to hopefully cause more to WANT them. They stopped making them for awhile to put a scare into folks that they might never again be made and now offer them again hoping folks who like the Winchester name will jump all over them in blind obediance when they are told hey here they are again still made in America and just like they always were. In fact they are made here but still by a foreign owned company and not at all like they once were.

But then I never bought one to begin with I've never oned a Model 70 Winchester and quite honestly likely never will. If there had been a market for them they wouldn't have dumped them in the first place other brands have simply out competed them and they have faded from the market place. Folks who want a Model 70 have plenty of used ones to chose from out there and even those these days are going begging for buyers. The supposed magic that was "The Rifleman's Rifle" was just a marketing ploy of old and the folks fooled by it by now either have all they want or have died off and left theirs to their heirs who have no more use for them than the current buying public.

Pinkerton · « **Reply #7 on:** July 04, 2008, 10:01:21 AM »

I'm not from Bamma and where I live Winchester outsold Remington pretty handily. It wasn't a sale issue that folded the New Haven Plant but a Union issue, so the sales were irrelivent.
Would I buy a new FN Winchester? no. The price they ask for them shows me they're more proud of them than I would be.

Keith L · « **Reply #8 on:** July 04, 2008, 02:25:20 PM »

"It wasn't a sale issue that folded the New Haven Plant but a Union issue, so the sales were irrelivent. "

This is an often repeated statement on the internet. I would be interested in how you came to this conclusion and what proof you have of its truth.

rvtrav · « **Reply #9 on:** July 04, 2008, 05:20:44 PM »

I missed my chance to get a model 70 featherweight in .257 roberts, and I do still want one!!

True, there are a lot of them floating around in many calibers, as long as you are looking for a .270, '06, or one of the big magnums, but I would have liked one in the Bob.

I would settled for one in the 6.5x55 as well, but I missed the boat on them too. The owners of those calibers don't seem to be parting with their guns.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #10 on:** July 09, 2008, 08:46:35 AM »

I have a post 64 mod. 70 got it about 69-70 . It is ok but nothing speical . Looked at a new one a few years back - WAPOC ! plastic follower cheap looking spring finish could best be decribed as not finished !
" not a sales problem but a union one " hum ? union pay run cost up to point gun was reduced in quality to the point sales suffered . lack of sales and low quality sounds like a bit of both .

Keith L · « **Reply #11 on:** July 09, 2008, 02:38:10 PM »

"union pay run cost up to point gun was reduced in quality to the point sales suffered . lack of sales and low quality sounds like a bit of both .

The cost of labor and fringe in most industries these days is 6-10% of the wholesale cost. Sounds more like a management problem to me. They reduced the specs and allowed quality problems.

Pinkerton · « **Reply #12 on:** July 09, 2008, 07:15:27 PM »

Could have sworn I read it in American Rifleman, but if memory serves me right it was the person who was considering taking over the plant that made the union issue statement. But from what I've found searching since you asked Keith, most everything I've found points to sales which suprises me because I thought the model 70 was selling so well. Shootall, I have to agree the XTR was nothing special but since winchester brought back the classic, every one I've seen has been excellent. I have a freind who got a stainless classic featherweight in 325WSM and it's first rate.

I have a stainless classic in 300 weatherby and accuracy, fit, finish and function are as good or better than comparable Remingtons or Rugers I've seen. My wife picked up one of the super shadows in 270WSM that I thought was the ugliest thing I'd ever seen until I shot it and carried it, now I use it more than she does. I have to say I've always prefered Marlins over the 94's, I've had 700's and 77's (they are great rifles thought) but I'm biased towards the model 70 so I have to admit my post was a bit knee jerkish.

As much as I like the model 70, before I'll pay for the new FN ones, I'll buy a used one if I find one I want. But if its accurate would be just as happy with a Ruger 77 hawkeye.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** July 10, 2008, 01:56:58 AM »

F&N bought the plant and when the union demanded more money and benifits F&N closed the plant as they were having sales losses at what they had to sell the gun for . Articles were in several mags. . Management wasn't the problem they are among some of the few who stand up to American union mentality !

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #14 on:** July 10, 2008, 03:42:05 AM »

From what I understand, the pre-64 model 70 was a Mauser action. After 64 it was made a push feed. A lot of people like myself want the mauser action with control round feed and claw extractor. If this is what they are bringing back, then it will sell. The push feed model 70 was equal to the Remington, but the Remington was less expensive and just as accurate if not more, so their sales dropped. Am I right about the pre and post 64 model 70's? If they bring back the classic in .375 HH, I will buy one.

Keith L · « **Reply #15 on:** July 10, 2008, 09:11:44 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 10, 2008, 01:56:58 AM

F&N bought the plant and when the union demanded more money and benifits F&N closed the plant as they were having sales losses at what they had to sell the gun for . Articles were in several mags. . Management wasn't the problem they are among some of the few who stand up to American union mentality !

As emasculated as American labor is and has been for the last twenty years that statement is just not true. Just because a union "demands" that doesn't convert to them getting it. There are many ways for a competently run company to protect themselves from that aside from closing the plant. If that management was unable to deal with the situation they should close the plant. Perhaps they can run a 7-11 somewhere.

Pinkerton · « **Reply #16 on:** July 10, 2008, 02:30:36 PM »

Dixie Dude, The model 70's made post 64 where indeed push feed, up until winchester began production of it's classic series which is the controled round feed version. When they began the classic series I'm not sure but they have been available for several years.

I was 18 in 1988, my brother's wife wanted to buy him a rifle but had no idea what to get so she left it up to me. (nothing like buying guns with someone elses money) I looked at everything in 270 I could find and finally came across a model 70 "lightweight" with a laminate stock, it was the XTR (push feed) and was less expensive than a comparable Remington at that time (just as accurate as well when compared to other Remingtons I had come across.)

At the time the plant closed the classic (controlled round feed) was being made in several configurations. A series called the shadow (pure push round feed, I believe) was available dirt cheap chambered in more traditional rounds 270, 30-06, 7 mag, 300wm. (a friend of mine had one in 30-06 and loved it and he was always a Remington BDL guy) And super and ultimate shadow series usually chambered in the WSM's with what Winchester was calling a combined controlled round/push feed, it has a short claw extractor on the bolt instead of the full length of the classic mauser style. My wife got one in 270WSM ( dirt cheap at walmart) butt ugly, but functions,packs and shoots like a dream.

That's just what I remember of what they had for 70's prior to the plant closing, I'm sure there are others on here that have a better knowledge though. I can't say I prefered the Winchester prior to comparing and choosing the 70 I picked up for my brother in late 1980's but even that cheaper push feed 70 impressed me I've seen earlier ones that didn't. I hadn't owned one myself until purchasing a Stainess Classic in 2001 and I really like them, but that's just me. After reading this post I've compared the MSRP of Remington BDL and CDL that I think are comparable to what the new model 70's are going to be and don't see much of a difference in price. But I've got to say the new ruger hawkeye is a darn nice rifle for $300 to $400 less.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2008, 05:30:01 AM »

THE CLASSIC ,was sorta a controlled round feed in that the extractor was designed to either snap over the rim ( unwise to do with a true controlled round feed action ) or work as a normal controlled round feed . To do both the area around the extractor was relived to allow it to snap over the rim in the cartrage . Some say it weakened the action strength and allowed an extractor to pop off a rim of a sticky case and leave it stuck .

mudstud · « **Reply #18 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:13:01 PM »

All Model 70 CRF's are designed to have the extractor snap over a round fed directly into the chamber, whether pre-64 or Classic. This was told to me by a Winchester customer service person several years ago, when I called them to address this specific issue. The Winchester fellow assured me this was one of the design improvements of the CRF Model 70 over an old Mauser. The issue I had, was that some of my Classics wouldn't snap over the rim of a cartridge fed directly into the chamber. I prefer to have the ability to single-feed a round directly into the chamber. Indeed, many Mausers had the extractor modified to enable them to do so. As far as I know, the only modification necessary is to the extractor itself, not to the receiver. I do understand, that this could create a situation where the extractor could pop over the rim of the case when trying to extract a sticky case. It has never happened to me, but there is always a possibility! The only problem I have with the extractor not being able to snap over a round fed directly into the chamber, is that it reduces your magazine capacity by one.

Swampman · « **Reply #19 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:28:58 PM »

There are so many really good rifles on the market today. The Remington Model 700 killed the Model 70 in the 1960s. The new Model 70 is over $1000.00. I can't see a reason to try to revive it. CRF is a non-issue to those who understand rifles. The Model 700 Remingtion will feed and shoot upside down.

The Rugers are nice looking, but they aren't normally real accurate. I'd rather have a Remington.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** August 14, 2008, 01:07:46 AM »

MY Rugers are !

Swampman · « **Reply #21 on:** August 14, 2008, 01:47:14 AM »

They can be made to shoot with some tinkering. The last M-77 I owned took a month's worth of tinkering and the right handload to shoot like it should have right out of the box with factory ammo. I guess I'm just spoiled by the Remington 700.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #22 on:** August 14, 2008, 08:40:12 AM »

My 204 and 22-250 shot good out the box , the 300 needed load work to get under an inch and a half at 100 yards . To be honest the Remingtons i own have been about the same , except it was simpler to mount a scope on the Rugers .

M8ball · « **Reply #23 on:** August 29, 2008, 07:48:32 PM »

OK, I'll bite.
From the looks of the online Winchester catalog, there's nothing there that would cause me to part with nearly a grand when I could get a used XTR or a nice 700 for much less.

That said, if FN decides to make one of the featherweights in .250-3000 or an oddball chambering like 9mm Mauser, now we're talking.

poncaguy · « **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2008, 12:04:27 PM »

I'm very happy with my 2 $400 Winchester Super Shadows I got from WalMart 3 or 4 years ago. Great hunting rifles, very accurate and easy to carry for my old body. One is a 270 WSM and the other a 300 WSM, ane recoil is surprisingly mild.

Pinkerton · « **Reply #25 on:** September 01, 2008, 05:31:39 PM »

Gotta agree with you there poncaguy, I hated the looks but it's grown on me considerably, last antelope season was my brother-in-laws first year, he was very unprepared with his rifle ( a nice 721 in 30-06), after I filled my tag first thing in the morning, he shot up a box of shells with his rifle, I had him try the super shadow, 2 shots and both tags filled, we later checked his zero and he was dead on with his 30-06. The super shadow just seems to be an easy gun to shoot well. If I can find one in 325WSM at a reasonable price I'll have to have it.