45/70 vs 460S&W?

[hansg/Ups]

I'm debating between a revolver in 45/70 vs 460S&W[either in ~7.5" barrel length].Use=last ditch medicine for bears[inside 50 yards].I already handload and cast for 45Colt and 45/70.I like the double action availability in 460S&W revolvers, but I wonder whether it's cheaper to feed a 45/70?,as well as using heavier projectiles[e.g.405gr]in 45/70?
Appreciate the feedback.

[youthpastorjon]

One of the benefits of the 460 is the versatility.  You can shoot the factory 460 load or a 454 Casull, or the 45 long colt out of that gun.  It is nice because it gives some different options to play with.

[Lone Star]

What experience do you have with bears in the bush?  Fifty yards is not a defensive range even for brownies.  I've been charged several times on Kodiak but the animals stopped between 15 and 20 yards away.  Had I fired at 30+ yards I'd have killed the animals for no good reason.  If you're worried about black bears charing...

You won't find a big difference in on-target effect between a .454 and a .460/.45-70 on a charging animal.  My suggestion is to get a smaller revolver you are more likely to have handy (big guns get left behind or stuck in an inaccessible place too often).  A Ruger in .454 is plenty.  A good rifle is far better IMO.


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[yorketransport]

I have some experience with both calibers. I used a 12" Encore in 460 S&W for a while, as well as a 12" Contender in 45/70 before moving up to the 10" BFR in 45/70. I felt that the 45/70 was more versitile, so I ended up selling the 460.

In the BFR, I can run everything from super light loads with Trail Boss and a cast bullet, to first class bone crushers using 500gr or heavier loads running full power. 45/70 data is available everywhere from pretty much every sorce that offers data. Although, the 460 has plenty of data out there as well. Especially if you count 45 Colt and 454 Casull data in there.

The biggest advantages the 45/70 has in my mind, are the lower pressure and heavier bullets. I just wasn't crazy about running a handgun way over the 50,000 PSI mark. Or running the shorter brass in the 460 chamber for that matter. And I preffer bullets over 400gr. My favorite in the 45/70 is the CP 440 LFNGC.

As far as which one is cheaper to feed, that one probably goes to the 460. Brass and bullets both seem to be a little bit cheaper. But the 460 does burn a little extra powder.

Since the guns chambered in either caliber are going to be equally large and cumbersom, just pick the style that you like. If you want a double action or a shorter barrel, that leaves you with the 460. If single action is more your style, you can have either caliber in the BFR.

In a somewhat related story, I was at Cabelas looking at a 7.5" octogon barreled BFR in 45/70 yesterday. I just listened patiently as the salesman told me that this gun was really more than anyone can handle accurately, even with the cowboy loads. He then informed me that it is really just a 460 S&W super mag, and that you can shoot 45/70, 460, 454, and 45 Colt out of it.  When I told him that I actually owned one and that this was not only ingnorant, but one of the stupidest things I'd ever heard, he became upset. He took the gun from my hands, litteraly tossed it back into the case, and walked away mumbling something about a stupid kid wasting his time.

Andrew

[hansg/Ups]

Thanks for the feedback.I've been routinely carrying a Redhawk 5.5" in either 44Mag or 45Colt with either 240/250gr JHPs or 320gr[44Mag]/270gr full wadcutters[45Colt] .Usually 20gr H110/2400[ for the 320gr I'm using 17gr 296]. I find the 45lc more to my liking.
Were I to go for a SA the BFR 7.5" 45/70 would be my first choice,for a DA it's a toss up between the SRH 7.5" 454 and the equivalent S&W460xvr.

[youthpastorjon]

In a somewhat related story, I was at Cabelas looking at a 7.5" octogon barreled BFR in 45/70 yesterday. I just listened patiently as the salesman told me that this gun was really more than anyone can handle accurately, even with the cowboy loads. He then informed me that it is really just a 460 S&W super mag, and that you can shoot 45/70, 460, 454, and 45 Colt out of it.  When I told him that I actually owned one and that this was not only ingnorant, but one of the stupidest things I'd ever heard, he became upset. He took the gun from my hands, litteraly tossed it back into the case, and walked away mumbling something about a stupid kid wasting his time.

Can the 45/70 handle any loads other than loads specifically made for that gun?  I have never heard of any.  I might suggest that you inform someone at Cabela's before one of their salesmen kills somebody.

[Grumulkin]

Try shooting a 460 S&W Mag. or 500 S&W Mag. double action and fast some time.  I think you will find that accuracy will be such that you could miss a bear at 10 feet.  In my opinion, in these heavy recoiling handguns, a single action handgun will be just as fast to shoot accurately as a double action one.

[buck460XVR]

Try shooting a 460 S&W Mag. or 500 S&W Mag. double action and fast some time.  I think you will find that accuracy will be such that you could miss a bear at 10 feet. 

I think that most will find this true even with .22 revolvers. ........just the nature of the beast.

For accuracy...... I always shoot my Compensated Hunter single action.......but I'm sure if I had a bear on top me with the barrel in his mouth that hittin' it in DA would be quite easy.

[Redhawk1]

Try shooting a 460 S&W Mag. or 500 S&W Mag. double action and fast some time.  I think you will find that accuracy will be such that you could miss a bear at 10 feet.  In my opinion, in these heavy recoiling handguns, a single action handgun will be just as fast to shoot accurately as a double action one.

I can shoot my single action BFR 500 mag as accurate and fast as I can my S&W 500 Mag. It is all in the shooter.


hansg/Ups, I like both rounds you ask about and own both, a BFR in 45-70 and a S&W 460 Mag. In my opinion if you pick either one you won't go wrong.

[COR]

Your added weight and bulk of that pistol wouldn't justify the need for either round, as a hardcast .45 Colt load that you shoot accurately would provide you with as much protection as can be asked for from a revolver.   A bear pistol for protection is never they answer but in my mind it should be packable and those revolver you listed are boat anchors.  These are chance encounters and I wouldn't want to lug around a long frame BFR, but that's just me.  A .45 325gr at 1200fps is a formidable penetrator and the gain from using the 45-70 or 460 with such a bullet would be minimal IMHO maybe you can double tap a .460 effectively like some claim.  More bear gun talk, I love this stuff... BTW within 50yds will get you in a lot of trouble when you claim defense with your local wildlife official.  Most people attacked by bears don't know it's coming so your 50yds is wishful thinking, most people just happen upon them when the wind is just right and then have to react...I must be a bad mofo cause all the PA BLACK BEARS RUN FROM ME...AND THEN HIDE FROM ME DURING THE SEASON and all I carry is a .44 loaded with 260's @ 1200 with a nice packable 5.5" barrel....

[Ole Man Dan]

COR is right.  I believe you likely won't need a pistol for Defense from 99.9% of animals.  A 12Ga.w/000 and a good pump gun will suffice for the rest of the animals that might want to eat you. (Even at that, you don't use the shotgun untill they are VERY CLOSE)  I have got by with either .44s or .45s with a WFN at about 1200 FPS. for my carry guns.  You are more likely to be in danger from two legged predators than from Bears.  (When you hear the Banjo music it's almost too late)
In a pinch, the .44 or .45 with a good hardcast will drill a hole thru Bears or other predators that 'Black & Decker' would be proud of... 
Note:  If the pistols too big, it's likely to be at home in the gunsafe, and not at hand when you need it most.

[corbanzo]

When you say "last ditch" do you mean backup revolver?  If it is just a backup revolver, get something smaller.  Are you going to be hiking?  If so.. get a redhawk alaskan, a taurus tracker 44 compact, or a 444 ultralite, or a smith 329 .44 mag.  I am in total agreement with lone star, whenever I pack my .454, it is usually the first thing to come off, cause it's a lunker.  More often I carry my .44 mag ultralite, and barely notice it's there.  I mean, I can't hit the broad side of a barn with full house loads at 50 yards out of it, because of the setup, but I can hit the broad side of a bear at 10 yards.  But it's not a hunting revolver, it's a backup revolver. 

The ONLY thing I see the .460 mag useful for is hunting.  As in, over the slightly smaller cartridges, it carries no real advatage in stopping power.  I think the .45-70 is a great lever gun round for hunting/protection, but a little on the large side for revolver use. 

[Mikey]

hansg:  save your money.  Listen to what the others have told you.  Both the 44 magnum and the 45LC with those loads will suffice for close encounters with bear. 

You used the term 'last ditch' - what is your primary hunting arm if a 45-70 or 460 revolver is the 'last ditch'?  Distances inside 50 yds should be no problem for your primary hunting arm, although I would not let any bear get to within 25 yds of me, period........................ JMTCW.  Mikey.

[Redhawk1]

I just wounder how many of you guys have hunted in bear country.
Also, I can't believe people take black bear so lightly. Sure most will run off when confronted,but you have a small percentage that will come after you. I don't take any bear lightly, I treat them all the same.

My handguns are my primary guns most of the time, I don't think you can ever go to big when bear hunting.

[RANGER RICK]

Redhawk1

You got that right .
I am more concerned with black bears than Grizz !!!!!!!
Two days ago here in Alaska some Biologists or the such had to shoot a black bear because it became violent towards them and it ripped up one of their tents with them in the camp .
They used Pepper spray and like usual the bears love the taste of pepper spray and then they had to shoot it .......
Never take Black bears lightly ..........Period

If you want to use a heavy 460 S&W bullet use a 535 Grain WFNGC .

RR

[Redhawk1]

Thanks Ranger Rick, I know you hunt in bear country all the time. People just take black bear lightly. (Not a smart thing)

Also, your 535 gr. bullets worked great in my S&W 460 Mag, I was surprised at the accuracy out to 50 yards.

[RANGER RICK]

I have great respect for bears, plural 
If you think that you are going to have 25 yards to respond to a bear encounter that may be a bit on the wishful side  .
I could not count how many times I have had black and or a brown step out right in front of me while hunting for deer and moose , most was within 20 feet 
The last time that happened was on Afognak Island next door to Kodiak Island .
My hunting partner and Myself was walking a logging road back down to the beach and had about a 81/2 Foot Brown and Fuzzy step right out in front of us maybe 10 feet away , My heart was in my throat and I about filled my pants with piss.
We had a staring contest for about 30 seconds and the bear went on his way .
I did not realize my hands could shake so much !!!!!!!!!!

Redhawk1
So you liked the big uns , good deal .
Send me a PM when you get a chance with the loads you settled on .
I am working on some stout loads this weekend .
Thanks

RR

Here are the 535 for the 460 S&W

[Lone Star]

On average more people are injured and killed by moose in Alaska each year than by bears.  This is not a surprise since there are far more moose in the bush than there are bears.  (FWIW I used to jump a lot more moose when still hunting than I ever did bears - and yes I've had several brownies up close.)  In spite of this well-known fact, everyone seems to be 'afraid' of bears.   The reality is that all of God's creatures deserve a healthy respect - just some more than others....


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[Redhawk1]

Lone Star, it is not out of fear of bear, but more out of respect. When someone underestimates any bear, that is when stuff happens.
There are some of use that have actual experience in bear country, like yourself, Ranger Rick and myself, and then we have those that only read about it. Actual experience is what I listen to.

Thanks for you time and experience.

Alex

[corbanzo]

I take black bears pretty lightly, and I have lived in costal Alaska my entire life, surrounded by black bears.

I still respect them and know that they could easily kill me, but I also know that I haven't met a black bear once that would stand up to me.  I see them in the trail, I just yell at them and they take off.  Brown bears are very different.  I have run a couple off, but it is the ones that turned and looked at me saying "what the hell is your problem?" which made me not try and run them off. 

Where I live - you prepare for the brown bears, and that is also enough for black bears. 

And lonestar is right about moose, Moose are just plain unpredictable. 

[Redhawk1]

I take black bears pretty lightly, and I have lived in costal Alaska my entire life, surrounded by black bears.

I still respect them and know that they could easily kill me, but I also know that I haven't met a black bear once that would stand up to me.  I see them in the trail, I just yell at them and they take off.  Brown bears are very different.  I have run a couple off, but it is the ones that turned and looked at me saying "what the hell is your problem?" which made me not try and run them off. 

Where I live - you prepare for the brown bears, and that is also enough for black bears. 

And lonestar is right about moose, Moose are just plain unpredictable. 

I agree, but it only takes one to make you have a bad day. And yes them Moose will hurt you.

[Mikey]

Fellas:  there is a place for all of God's creatures, and the place for Moose is on the plate next to the mashed patotoes.................

[corbanzo]

Yeah, I've almost got my 168grn tipped TSX's dialed in for this fall....  caribou draws come out next week..., moose season in a month and a half... and I'm getting hungry just thinking about it.  The red's are in thick at the creek next to the house, bears are all over the place here lately.  A small female brownie and her cub have been eating fish along the banks, and one good sized black bear too has been spotted around...  I have not spotted the good sized black bear, or he wouldn't be around no more.

[kennisondan]

a little thanks is in order : it is experience like this that when shared become the nuggets of wisdom those of us who would like to do these things, hunt these animals .. face these giants.. feel that heart beating wildly ... shoot a monster that could crush you like a bug... we who do not have the opportunity yet to do it can learn from what you guys all have done; it is great that you all will share that .. and I want to thank guys who also share what they have learned from others, too... when I hear something from one of the guys that are supposed to really know : I would repeat it with the caveat that I learned it .. I did not do it... and perhaps it will spur more commentary to fix the mistakes or supplement the second hand knowlege with the sharing of real experience.  I appreciate a good read and folks just like me just love to think about it fantasize the what ifs ... sometimes I just want a gun that, if I ever get the chance to go to safari or to alaska or in grizzly or moose country anywhere... I just want a gun that will unquestionably do it with the proper training and placement and I know I can bank on what I have read and learned and then in the face of actually getting there: what I have practiced the best way I can do so.... til then I will load and shoot some really big guns and read of moose and bear; of tigers and giants of africa... and soak it up like a sponge. then I will imagine my self there already and deliver a crushing blow to my target, calling it a record book trophy or a marginal trophy that means to end my days... I will try to use the right gun and sometimes the full, and correct loads so that I can know all that I can so far know... it just brings it closer somehow than just a dream... it is a plan with a few small steps taken... a conspiracy to get me there and do that, too... if I can stop buying guns I can save money for a hunt in a far away strange land for monsterous mankillers... whether in another state or the wilds of another continent.... If I can show suc restranint and am so blessed : I will know not to bet on 25 yards warning, and not to shoot out to 50 yards cause it is not justified, and that I must watch the blacks and the brown shaggy ones, and that a moose is not a deer on steroids that will just lumber away; and that whatever 44 or 45 or 500 caliber gun I have will actually do it if it is with me and I have the right stuff in it and practice behind me... it will be an easy shot when I stand on the shoulders of giants and prop on the foundation of true life experience... thanks for sharing openly... we all appreciate it and take it to heart.. we polish our big guns and stand in your shoes and in your story for just a moment; we hold the gun a little tighter before we put it away for the day. After all it is our ticket to greater things, its value is much more than just dollars and cents.
dk

[Cottonwood]

Ranger Rick and Redhawk1 have given some great advice here.  I also live and hunt in bear country here in NW Montana and my personal carry for the woods is a Ruger SBH 4 5/8ths .44 mag loaded with 305-gr WFN GC bullets over 20.0 gr H110

The 45-70 BFR and the 460 are great hunting cartridges but like has been said, the firearms are heavy for all the time carry.  If I were to get either one for handgun hunting, and I love the 45-70 but I would opt for the 460 simply because there are more choices of cartridges to carry (.45 Colt/454/460) which has been mentioned already as well as that load Ranger Rick showed with that awesome 535 grain WFN bullet.

[odoh]

I've 3 encounters w/blacks over the yrs. Being a native CA, my understanding was shaped by limited bear experienced in the area. Extremely shy, fleeting and hardley encountered in the wild I gave little thot to them. My friends would hunt'em w/hounds and thet didn't appeal to me.

However, I do like to hunt elk in ID & CO and 3 times, I seen them leaving the area and it fell within my pre established conclusions on their character and behavior. Never gave it much thot as it happened but did notice how quick they were. They covered grnd deceptively fast. Found myself wondering if I could get the rifle up to my shoulder and off safety in time. In each case, I found evidence that they circled around behind me to chk me out. The last time it was one working on a gutpile and it made its presence known until I  completely left his area of the woods. Some evenings when I recollect those times I find myself somewhat alarmed by my lack of concern at the time. Bears concern me deeply but first reactions are shaped/condition from our deep held early beliefs and in this case could be life threatening.

[Cottonwood]

odoh

I don't know if you have a levergun or bolt but here is a video that I think you should see about if you can get your rifle up in time question.  As this shooter as well as myself also carry Marlin Guide Guns in 45-70 when in dangerous country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XCB4A911SM

[Redhawk1]

I love my Marlin Guide gun also.  If I am not using my handguns, my Mariln is what I like.

[RANGER RICK]

Ditto on the Marlin 45-70 Guide gun .
I really like mine also.
Have killed many a deer on Kodiak and Afognak Island ...


RR

[Redhawk1]

Rick, I like your sponge bob table...