Loss in Iraq?

[Ruskin]

I beleive the stars are aligning for a loss in the middle east similar to what happened in Nam.

In 72, we were implementing vietnamization.  We were pulling troops.  We had struck an agreement to provide the south with aid.  The north had agreed to a cease fire. 

When the battle of An Loc took place our troop strength had been reduced with the thought that the ARVN could handle the north.  The NVA moved to establish a capital 60 miles north of Siagon at An Loc.  They were going to fill the void left by our troops.  The North did not intend to let the south stand.  In 75, the north did an all out invasion.  The Democratic controled congress cut off the purse strings.  Nixon was battling for his political life.  Thus the long war was finally lost in congress, not on the battlefield.

I heard Obama set a time table of 16 months.  History repeats.  The Democrats are in control of congress.  The Iranians can wait 16 months before an all out seige.  The same for OSL.  The oil fields then will be under control of radicals in the middle east.

We have not done enough hear to drill for our own oil.  Alternative energy is a long way off to replace the oil dependancy we have that should have been lessened long ago.  Another democratic idea of a windfall tax will only serve to dry up exploration here.  The US oil companys only account for less than 10% of private oil exploration.  The major oil producers are held by government oil companies.

The future looks bleak for the next few years until we have felt enough pain for Washington to wake up and look after the USA first.  Trying to be mister nice guy will only make things worse.  You cannot bargain from weakness.  We tend to loose out in bargaining situations.

[hardertr]

There are two things "we" did that keep us from winning this "war".

First, we didn't come in and clean house in the very begining.  We pussy-footed around and let the press run the "war".

SECONDLY, we continue to have this idea that the Iraqi Army and Iraqi Police should be included in all operations.  We have lost more "opportunities" because "they" leaked information or "failed" to complete a mission.

We won't win...there is nothing TO WIN.  Everybody that was/is a real threat that USED TO BE in Iraq is now gone.  They are not "on the run" or hiding in caves.  They have regrouped and are letting the US beat itself in this "war".  We can't stay here forever (we aren't wanted), and we can't attack the entire "Middle East" (we would lose horribly...even with our conventional weapons and tactics).

My personal suggestion would be to "leave" Iraq.  The roaches will scurry back as soon as the lights go out...... then we come back in and do things the right way, when "they" least expect it...without "America" watching our every move.

[bilmac]

TM7
Do you really believe this stuff you write or do you just like to stir the pot. Where oh where do you get 225,000 missles to rain on Isreal? Do you pay any attention to history at all? It ought to be apparent to anyone that muslem extreamists are lots and lots of blow and absolutely no show. Remember the TV guys before Desert Storm telling us how many people were going to die if we did anything. Same for Afganistan same for Iraq. Hey TM you a TV guy?

[beemanbeme]

Yup, them Iranians is some really tough customers.  Probably like Sadam's Republican Guard that was supposed to be bullet proof and had vowed to fight to the death.  Seems I remember they were chartering buses so they could surrender faster and in larger groups.   
As I have posted elsewhere, if they would pull the cameramen and talking heads out of the Marine squads and LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS, we wouldn't have a problem.  IMO, if they want to inflame America into a warlike rage, don't fret them about WMD, just tell them if we invade Iraq and Iran, the price of gas will go down. 

225,000 missiles.  Wow.  IG posts that "48.7% of statistics are made up on the spot". I think that 99.7% of TM7's statistics are made up on the spot and a large portion of his words. 

[billy_56081]

The only was we can lose in Iraq is if we surrender. Cowards, thieves and filthy spinless liberals are what is keeping us from outright winning. If the press was pulled out and the military was allowed to do it job and take off the kid gloves this war would have ended long ago. Killing people and breaking things is what a soldiers job is. We have far too many vermin in this country who undermine our land by giving aid and comfort to our enemy.


By the way my friend TM7 what does the TM stand for True Muslim? 225,000 missles raining down on Israel why not say 225,000,000 can you make your antisemetic propaganda up any faster? GEEZ

[Spanky]

Yup, them Iranians is some really tough customers.  Probably like Sadam's Republican Guard that was supposed to be bullet proof and had vowed to fight to the death.  Seems I remember they were chartering buses so they could surrender faster and in larger groups.   
As I have posted elsewhere, if they would pull the cameramen and talking heads out of the Marine squads and LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS, we wouldn't have a problem.  IMO, if they want to inflame America into a warlike rage, don't fret them about WMD, just tell them if we invade Iraq and Iran, the price of gas will go down. 

225,000 missiles.  Wow.  IG posts that "48.7% of statistics are made up on the spot". I think that 99.7% of TM7's statistics are made up on the spot and a large portion of his words. 

Talk about hitting the nail on the head!!
Beeman you are exactly right, sounds like another "armchair combat analyst" (TM7) spelling doom and gloom in the Middle East.


Ruskin,
Maybe you should tell some soldier who is just returning from a year or more in Iraq that the "stars are aligning for a loss"
Dont be surprised if you "see stars"



Spanky
Cpl. USMC
Iraqi War Veteran

[deltecs]

TM7
Do you really believe this stuff you write or do you just like to stir the pot. Where oh where do you get 225,000 missles to rain on Isreal? Do you pay any attention to history at all? It ought to be apparent to anyone that muslem extreamists are lots and lots of blow and absolutely no show. Remember the TV guys before Desert Storm telling us how many people were going to die if we did anything. Same for Afganistan same for Iraq. Hey TM you a TV guy?

Right on, bilmac.  Where, oh where, did the 225,000 missles come from?  Who will send them Israel's direction?  The western nations or the Islamic controlled countries?  If it is the Islamic controlled countries, just how did they get the technology, when TM has posted elsewhere that it is impossible for bunch of rag heads to plan, execute, and pilot 4 jet aircraft on 9/11?   If they cannot even pilot a jet aircraft, how in hell are they going to design, build, test, and launch 225,000 missles using extremely advanced guidance systems into Israel?  If the guidance system is off just a bit launched from any distance, the target would be missed and they'd hit Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, probably Iraq, and some of the other smaller Islamic countries.  If a first defense strike was initiated by the US with nuclear weapons, just who would lauch those 225,000 missles.  Doesn't anyone believe the other Islamic nations would realize that sending missles to Israel after an attack against Iran, would incur more wrath against them with the nuclear option too?  Does anyone really believe these leaders to be so stupid and religious as to risk entire extinction by supporting and lauching missles in retaliation for an attack on Iran?  Wouldn't that be a shame?  If the Islamic oil countries lost the oil supply, where do you think Americans would demand to get from?  ANWR?  Offshore drilling in competition with China?  You bet they would, then.  America would scream bloody murder for fossil energy, alternative energy, and nuclear right now, and to h*** with the environmentalists.  I am sure America has enough nuclear armament in its arsenal to accomodate any retaliation.  America has basically fought insurgents, terrorists, and enemy combatants currently.  Once the nuclear option is deployed, the civilian populace, innocent and guilty alike will be punished.  That's extermination.

[bilmac]

Spanky
 Thank you for your service man. You guys who signed up when you knew where you were going are a real special bunch of people. When you all start running for office so we can vote for you maybe we can put the country back togather again like the military rebuilt itself after Viet Nam.

[beemanbeme]

In truth, I don't think the Israelis are too worried about it. I can't make a direct quote but I will paraphase what the Defense Chief of Israel said about a missile attack from Iraq and/or Iran:  "If you make a missile attack on Israel, you will not have enough people left to count the dead. You will cease to exist as a people,"  Maybe not too PC but hard to misunderstand.
Now I can get behind a guy that thinks like that. If we had more like that and fewer peeking under their beds at night looking for a terrorist, we'd be better off.

[deltecs]

I will find the 225,000 misslile page eventually, weather it is hyperbole or not is the subject of the thread in a way.
So,,,for you weaponphiles..here is some of what they got and who they been working with.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/weapons.htm
and
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/index.html


...TM7

Based on these webpages cited, the inventory of Iran's missle arsenal is less than 1,500 of all sizes.  Even if Iran copied and built new missles on its own, the total volume could hardly exceed 25,000, much less the 225,000 quoted. 

[alsaqr]

The Democratic controled congress cut off the purse strings.  Nixon was battling for his political life.  Thus the long war was finally lost in congress, not on the battlefield.

During the final push by North Vietnamese troops on Saigon only one division stood and fought.  It was wiped out.  In the end it would not have mattered if the US congress had sent billions to South Vietnam.  They would still have lost the war.  The war was lost from the day that Nixon and Kissinger washed their hands of it and cooked up a peace deal with the North.

The South Vietnamese never had the heart to win.  They were allowed by the US to mope around for years.  Draft age young men from politically connected and/or wealthy families were allowed to wuss out while poor kids fought the war.  The government of South Vietnam was as corrupt as modern day Mexico.  The entire South Vietnamese military was riddled by traitors and spys. 

US troops had the war won after Tet in 1968.  Had the pressure been kept up, North Viet Nam would have come to the surrender table; they were soundly whipped.    It was not to be:  Immediatly after Tet, LBJ stopped the bombing of the North and put out peace feelers, allowing the North to regroup. 

Shortly before the fall of South Viet Nam in 1975 I read a top secret intelligence estimate that was dated 1965.  It was stated that if the US did nothing, the South would fall in 20 years.   By the US getting involved in the war, the North was forced to pull out the stops and they won the war in 10 years.

BTW:  Robert McNamara is the only sob in the world who I would willingly choke to death.  I spent 20+ years in the US Army and he was the sorriest puke who ever worked in the Pentagon. 

[Swampman]

We can't lose unless we quit.  Most American hate the President, and want to quit.  I knew all the flag waving right after 9/11 wouldn't last 2 weeks.  As a nation we are weak....sad really!

[beemanbeme]

Swampman, The Flag waving at my house didn't start at 9/11 and it hasn't stopped.  And too, I kinda like to think that America is bigger than Bush or any of those POS's in DC. 
Everybody said if Nixon was kicked out the Nation would collapse. Well, he was and we didn't. We even survived Ford, a talking head put in place strictly to pardon Nixon..... " I don't know that he did anything (I wisht I could have seen the fingers he had crost behind his back), but if he did and I don't know about it, I'm gonna pardon him." 

[bilmac]

225,000 rockets? Maybe Iran made a large purchase of popbottle rockets. They will be used for visual effects to accompany the sound effects of AK 74s

[billy_56081]

  The sad thing is the hippys from the 60's and 70's are now teaching our youth thier hate America BS. Soon these traitors will be dying off and won't be in the colleges and schools teaching thier contempt for America. We have surrender monkeys, cowards and down right traitors in the hippy liberal group and they make me sick.  THey want us to lose, they hate America and everything about it. Sadly They use our constitution( which they hate) against.

[Swampman]

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

[NONYA]

We wouldnt loose over there with only 1/4 of the power we have at our hands,youdefeatist liberal polesmokers need to move to Canada where you will fit in.We are perfectly positioned to handle the real threat in that area,Iran,and if you think our continued presence in the arena is anything but a staging for the upcoming Iran war you are sadly mistaken.We are staging the forces we will need to deal with a powerful madman that makes Saddam look like a local thug,he has sworn deat to all americans and he will eventually make the mistake we need to clean house and straighten things out over there.

[hardertr]

Just out of curiosity, how are you folks so well educated on this war?  Are any of you actually over here in Iraq, or have you been?  Has anyone been in the military since the invasion?

[alsaqr]

Has anyone been in the military since the invasion?

Not I.  Retired from the Army in 1979.  Was advising the Saudis during Desert Shield/Storm and destroyed the unserviceable US Army ammo in Saudi afte the war.  Have a lot of active duty military friends who are serving or have served in Iraq. 

[Ruskin]

Spanky

My statement about the stars aligning is due to the change in the political arena here in the USA.  The Democrats and the press are going to cause the same situation in Iraq that happened in Nam.

We won the war over there but lost it here in the US.  Our enemy then and now are prepared to fight a long protracted war.  In the US, we think that war is like fast food.  It isn't.  Just because we bring our troops home, it doesn't mean the enemy has ceased to fight.

The reason I said what I did is because I don't want another soldier's name on another war memorial.

Ruskin
Philippines, TSN, CRB, NKP

USAF 1967-1971

[beemanbeme]

TM7, While the "big brother" idea is good on paper and sells well to the pacifist and the look-for-a-terrorist under your bed at night group, and the I'd rather be red than dead crowd, do you remember the brinksmanship days of Kennedy in his finest hour?  When he basically asked the USSR "do you think this crappy little island off the coast of Florida is worth going to war over?"  And Russia blinked and pulled their missiles out of Cuba. 

Does N. Korea want to risk a war with us?  Many pragmatist, and I'm one of them, feel that Korea is unfinished business.  Had we not fought that stupid "stalemate" fight, we wouldn't have many of the problems we have today. Do you really think China is gonna risk a war with us? Over Iran? 

[Ruskin]

After WWII, most of our wars have been some form of stalemate or unfinished business.

If we leave the middle east will the war on terror be over?

Our enemies think long term.  We think day to day.  They are willing to sacrifice for the long term.  We can't sacrifice for the short term.  The last few wars we have fought have been carried by a small percent of our population while the rest goes about as if nothing has happened.  If we ALL focused on the war and demanded a win rather than some settlement which later will be broken wouldn't we better off?

[bilmac]

Do not answer a fool acording to his folly, or you will be like him yourself.  Proverbs 26,4

[beemanbeme]

I didn't understand half the made up words in your post but I could distill the hate America flavour of your brew.
 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understood you to say that Iran, looking down the barrel of a USA Bazooka, is gonna pull the trigger of her grossly exaggerated  little pop gun, to show her defiance and determination even though she knows the next thing she sees will be an all encompassing ball of fire followed by eternal silence.  And you further stated that China, N.K. et al are ready and willing to go to the wall for that goofy bunch of Arabs that even the other Muslims don't trust?  ROFLMAO  Timothy OLeary is alive and well and living in TM's puter.

[deltecs]

You know, my great grandad a hillbilly from PA told me a little adage.  The dumber the farmer, the bigger the potato.  I think he meant more common sense than edumacation.  Some may not have the formal schooling or decide not to employ it in their literary style, but to personally attack them and their residential area, is another slight of hand from the subject at hand.  That's like saying anyone from Vermont is a liberal and closet Democrat, more concerned with child molester civil rights than the child victims, and obviously has been influenced by socialists and gays from MASS.  Anyone attacking another with typical predjudiced perception, while defending the same concept with regard to Muslims, just don't have his boat full of fish and doesn't deserve any logical consideration to his posts due contradictions.

[billy_56081]

 Well TrueMuslim7 as Ron White said, "you can't fix stupid". 

I kinda think what he meant by that is you can't educated the stupid out of a person?

[hardertr]

It's funny (not really.... pathetic is more accurate) how you folks can't even carry on a serious conversation for more than a page without taking pot-shots at each other.  It does seem pretty typical of the over-all attention span of the "average American" when it comes to this war.

If anyone is truly concerned about a war between the US and Iran, or even the situation over here, let's talk about it.  I'm sitting about 150 miles from the border of Iran, and have some of my soldiers within 50 miles of there...... I'm sure we can all become a little more educated.  I know for a fact I am not privy to as much televised news as most of you are.

[beemanbeme]

You know, TM7, they might'n not teach us a whole lots of book larnin' down at the consolidated school house (just enough so's we can sign them checks that you'ns sends us)  but they do fit us'ns out with a state of the art BS detector and just about anytime I read (with help) one of your post, it's beepin' like crazy.  Perhaps if you would once, just once, wipe the made in the USA gravy off'n your chin and make a post, a single post, that wasn't a blatant smear against America, it wouldn't start shrieking the moment it saw TM7. Maybe my BS detector is like Pavlov's dog, whoever he was. 

FYI, I couldn't find several words like neoconic, cui bono, likud neocons, and so forth in my Webster's Unabridged but, as I said, I was able to distill the "essense" of your post.

[NONYA]

WEll Iran fired off a salvo of various ranged missiles today,pull your boot straps tight cuz the isrealis arnt going to sit around waiting for them to fall on them,and if Iran retaliates were right in the middle of it.

[beemanbeme]

Oh no, let's wait until they start landing on Pennsylvania Avenue.  It has nothing to do with us. Don'tchaknow.