Author Topic: Need Ideas for wildcat - 223 brass (Read 4771 times)

stimpylu32 · « **on:** July 08, 2008, 12:18:29 PM »

Do any of you guys know of any cats based on a shortend 223 Rem case ? Been looking through case drawings and have not found much so any info would be a help .

It doesn't need to be a 22 cal either , so give some place to start if you know of any please .

stimpy

Reed1911 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2008, 03:46:02 AM »

Well,

Consider that all the 'cats for the .221 and .222 case are more or less going to fit that bill. Just looking for info or thinking about a project for the winter?

iiranger · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2008, 07:55:53 AM »

The .223 and .222 Mag are just the .222 longer. The .221 is the .222 shorter. Where you want to go? I think the original rim/base for the .222 was the .38 ACP/ 9mm family. And there are a couple of European cases on this rim size that are longer and even available rimmed. You might want to find a big, long shell holder list of cartridges for this shell holder. That .30 Whisper comes to mind. .308 bullets in necked up .221 brass. Then there are the legions of "smaller." .17s. Now .20s. believing that what you might propose hasn't been done, but I could be wrong. Won't be the first time. luck.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** July 09, 2008, 08:18:09 AM »

Full length you have the 6mm TCU, .257 TCU, 6.5 TCU, 7mm TCU. Shorter you have the .17 Mach IV aka .17 Remington Fireball, .221 Fireball, and .30 Whisper. I'm pretty sure there is a .20 on the Fireball case that's still a wildcat but I do not recall the name.

I'm sure there are many others using the .221 Fireball, .222 Remington and .223 Remington case either shortened or full length that I'm not aware of but those listed above give you a pretty good choice from .172" to .308" diameter and from real short to full length.

I've owned and worked with all but the .257 TCU which so far I've never run across a barrel for. My favorites from amoung them are the .17 Fireball, 6mm TCU and the 7mm TCU. I've used those quite a bit the .17 Fireball at this last PD shoot where it sure gave a good accounting for itself. I've taken several deer with the 7 TCU and used the 6 TCU on varmints and targets and it is a super accurate round with good power for varmints and predators.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 09, 2008, 08:43:45 AM »

Thanks Guys , right now its still a planning thing , with the 223 case being so readily available its just a natural one to look at , that and the small case cap works well as a powder saver .

It may be odd but after doing the 41 & 224 GNR as well as the 22 Rem Jet rounds , I am starting to like this case forming thing .

Its not as bad as I thought it would be , and yes Ron this will be a winter project .

Again thanks for the ideas , it gives me somewere to start my research .

stimpy

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #5 on:** July 09, 2008, 11:53:43 AM »

Stimp I think the wild cat bit you, and well. I've been looking at the TCU route myself, having a nice bull .223 barreled Handie that just wants to be modified. I don't have a .25 but I have alot of bullets avalible for 6 and 7MM. Sometimes so many options just aint a good thing.

Reed1911 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 09, 2008, 12:29:32 PM »

How about we go from this angle, what is the overall achievment to be? For deer to varmints the 6mm, 6.5, or 7mm TCU will all suit you very well, more 6mm on Varmints and more 7mm on deer size, but.....

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #7 on:** July 09, 2008, 01:32:21 PM »

338-223. Go big! Case is cut down to 1.41 inches.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 09, 2008, 01:53:13 PM »

Ron

The #1 use will be varmints ( Groundhogs & P-dogs ) and 2nd will be paper punching , Looking for a 1" 3 shot group @ 200 yards , platform will be a mag fed bolt gun , Brand unknown till I decide on the round to be used .

Richard

Reed1911 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 10, 2008, 04:19:16 AM »

Go with the 6mm TCU then, easy to form and lots of bullet selection

~Ace~ · « **Reply #10 on:** July 10, 2008, 04:28:20 AM »

.20 practical

Graybeard · « **Reply #11 on:** July 10, 2008, 12:13:39 PM »

Yup the 6 TCU would definitely fill the bill nicely. BUT don't over look that .17 Fireball for the stated uses. My Remington Model Seven Predator will easily do that with factory ammo. I've still not gotten my dies from Hornady so can't say what reloads will do yet but since even factory ammo meets that accuracy criteria it is a contender for what you want and is readily available in bolt action rifles right from Remington and isn't even a wildcat anymore altho under the .17 Mach IV name it was for many years.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 10, 2008, 03:10:56 PM »

Bill

I like the idea of the 17 FB but that would defeat the whole purpose of this project , I'm looking for something that no one makes cases for , a true wildcat .

stimpy

Lone Star · « **Reply #13 on:** July 10, 2008, 04:52:02 PM »

My vote is for the .30/.223. This wildcat was used in the early days of IHMSA silhouette shooting in Contenders and XP-100s - that would be the late-1970s - but was no longer popular by ca. 1980. It is very rare today, so it would definately not be something a lot of folks would shoot. Heck, there may only be a dozen or so firearms still so-chambered. Performance was similar to the .30 Herrett in Contender handguns, and bullets ranging from 110 to 165 grains were used.

Today the Hornady 110 V-Max bullet (or other 110s) would do fine for varmints (around 2900-3000 fps in a rifle barrel); depending on the twist rate almost any BallisticTip or MatchKing for targets. Your accuracy goal will be easy with a rifle built by someone who knows how.

.

PaulS · « **Reply #14 on:** July 10, 2008, 07:42:39 PM »

If velocity is going to be of concern for the varmint shooting you will have to stay under 22 caliber. Barrel and twist combinations will tell you what bullets you can use.
My first thought was a lower velocity 25 caliber but that isn't going to make a good varminter so it looks like you will be making a 10, 17 or 20 caliber wildcat. Since the 17 is done already that means 10 or 20 caliber. Bullets are going to be hard to find in either caliber and selection is short. I would suggest that you see what is available in barrels and bullets and then finalize you thoughts. Personally I like the idea (though not the work and expense) of a 20 caliber.

Lone Star · « **Reply #15 on:** July 11, 2008, 06:01:11 AM »

Quote

If velocity is going to be of concern for the varmint shooting you will have to stay under 22 caliber.

Why so? If the range limit is 200 yards, high velocity is not necessarily a requirement. A 6mm/TCU will give quite high velocities with light 55-grain bullets, approaching the speeds of a .225 WCF. Not fast enough?

All that is needed is a caliber with good, soft varmint bullets, and that includes all up to and including .308" bullets. With 3000 fps available from a .223/.222Mag case the 110-grain V-Max bullets work great. To 200 yards trajectory is fine. Any smaller diameter bullet is just that much better.....

.

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** July 11, 2008, 10:06:11 AM »

Quote from: stimpylu32 on July 10, 2008, 03:10:56 PM

Bill

I like the idea of the 17 FB but that would defeat the whole purpose of this project , I'm looking for something that no one makes cases for , a true wildcat .

stimpy

Fair enough. Take a look on the Classifieds. Someone has a Rem700 Classic that started life as a .221 Fireball and he had it blue printed and a Lilja Match barrel installed and chambered it to the .17 Mach IV which is a near twin to the .17 Fireball but still is a unique and slightly different pure wildcat. He even has the dies to go with it.

PaulS · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2008, 11:40:24 AM »

Bill,
Where is the fun in buying a wildcat? I thought Stimpylu wanted to build his own because he gets pleasure out of building them.
I have to agree with you that it is probably easier to have fun with a proven shooter that someone else did all the hard work on. There is a lot to say for the fun of shooting unless you want to take the credit for building it at the same time.

Mikey · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2008, 03:10:37 PM »

Stimpy - why doncha go the other way and straight-case it. Should come out somewhere near the old 351 Winchester self loading and if you keep it at today's 35/358 bore diameters you can use bullets from 110 gns to 250 gns; and who knows, if you design it right you should be able to seriously try for that 200 yd 1" group. Just a thought. Mikey.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2008, 11:25:13 AM »

Something nobody makes.... How about a 20 Fire ball. I saw where someone a few years ago took 22 Hornet brass blew out the case to strait wall and necked it down to 20. Was real neat looking and the proformance was impressive. It looked like a model of a 307 Win. If my 22 Hornet did not feed from a rotary Mag, They don't like other than the shape of the parent case, I would be looking to change out a barrel. With the advent of the 204 Ruger there are a lot of bullets available.

Graybeard · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2008, 01:01:47 PM »

Quote

If my 22 Hornet did not feed from a rotary Mag, They don't like other than the shape of the parent case, I would be looking to change out a barrel. With the advent of the 204 Ruger there are a lot of bullets available.

I've heard from folks who've turned them into K-Hornet that's a myth but have no first hand experience.

Tylermtech · « **Reply #21 on:** October 04, 2008, 01:56:45 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on July 13, 2008, 11:25:13 AM

Something nobody makes.... How about a 20 Fire ball. I saw where someone a few years ago took 22 Hornet brass blew out the case to strait wall and necked it down to 20. Was real neat looking and the proformance was impressive. It looked like a model of a 307 Win. If my 22 Hornet did not feed from a rotary Mag, They don't like other than the shape of the parent case, I would be looking to change out a barrel. With the advent of the 204 Ruger there are a lot of bullets available.

The 20 fireball is very similar to the 20 Vartarg

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #22 on:** October 04, 2008, 03:09:07 PM »

Hey what did you end up making?

NFG · « **Reply #23 on:** October 29, 2008, 03:16:46 PM »

I think the 20 FB IS the 20 Vartarg or vice versa...either way it is a great cartridge.

You might do something halfway in between the two case lengths or caliber size and have your own claim to fame and all the fun of doing it. That case size has been worked like a red-headed step child...hardly any place to squeeze in and you need to be a lot skinnier than me to fit.

How about a 23 cal or some other "split the difference" caliber size and also make your own bullets. Definitely a pricey project if you did and definitely a "one off" proposition. Corbin would do your bullet making dies, CH4D your sizing dies and PTG your reamer.

I read an article once called the 23 and a half way long time ago. Basically a 0.235" bullet using a 243 case....right smack in the middle between 22 and 6mm cals. Never saw or heard of any more than one rifle being built. I Jonesed for one but ended up with a 22-243 Middlested instead. Thought about doing something but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Good idea for winter tho'.

Tylermtech · « **Reply #24 on:** October 29, 2008, 06:24:26 PM »

Quote from: NFG on October 29, 2008, 03:16:46 PM

I think the 20 FB IS the 20 Vartarg or vice versa...either way it is a great cartridge.

You might do something halfway in between the two case lengths or caliber size and have your own claim to fame and all the fun of doing it. That case size has been worked like a red-headed step child...hardly any place to squeeze in and you need to be a lot skinnier than me to fit.

How about a 23 cal or some other "split the difference" caliber size and also make your own bullets. Definitely a pricey project if you did and definitely a "one off" proposition. Corbin would do your bullet making dies, CH4D your sizing dies and PTG your reamer.

I read an article once called the 23 and a half way long time ago. Basically a 0.235" bullet using a 243 case....right smack in the middle between 22 and 6mm cals. Never saw or heard of any more than one rifle being built. I Jonesed for one but ended up with a 22-243 Middlested instead. Thought about doing something but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Good idea for winter tho'.

The GunHaus makes custom bullets in.235, not sure about the cost.

Its funny how something can set you off to make you want a caliber that is 5 times as expensive as something that works just as well. Oh well, I guess thats how custom gun builders make a living

Tylermtech · « **Reply #25 on:** October 29, 2008, 06:25:44 PM »

you could make a 19-223, or a 19 fireball, not many have these. Check out james calhoons sight - he makes the 19 cal stuff

NFG · « **Reply #26 on:** October 29, 2008, 07:19:06 PM »

True, true Tyler...if I had all the money AND time I spent on wildcats all in one pile, I could buy a brand new P/U, money left over to buy a couple of hi-dollar custom rifles and be a full of pi** and vinegar 20 year old again. LOL

But 'Cat'n's never been about money, lack or excess thereof. I've had a few, home built and bought, that you would go a long ways before finding another. Some of my present 'cats are few and far between also and they aren't anywhere near being way out there strange kinda weird ones...I quit doing those when I got enough sense to want my cake and eat it too.

Once you delve into the feline psyche, or fall under that spell you'll never be the same again.

For some of us, that's good enough.

Besides, the Calhoon is too close to the 20 cal and too readily available...maybe a 14 Walker?

To be a REAL 'catter you have to go nuts and do something strange and exotic...you know a short, fat, blownout case with a venturified 56.75° shoulder angle using wasp waisted needle pointed bullets turned out of some kind of strange and wonderful metal with a velocity above 6000fs using a titanium receiver/barrel, fully automatic, digitally controlled fire control system, and laser range finding equipped with brain sensing firing mechanism and shoot in the dark capabilities.....or did I go too far? hahahahahaha

Bugflipper · « **Reply #27 on:** October 29, 2008, 08:04:22 PM »

Just a few more.
14/221 walker
14/223
19/223 calhoun
19 fireball
223 ack imp
.221 ai
It's pretty easy to fit up to a .308 in the 221 or 223.
25/221 AI is the rarest I can think of.

brasskeeper · « **Reply #28 on:** November 06, 2008, 12:38:06 PM »

How about 223 necked up to 6mm?

bubbadoyle · « **Reply #29 on:** November 06, 2008, 05:13:54 PM »

Quote from: brasskeeper on November 06, 2008, 12:38:06 PM

How about 223 necked up to 6mm?

that would be a 6mm TCU.