H&R MAY NO LONGER BE #1 IN MISSISSIPPI PRIMITIVE WEAPON

[STUMPJMPR]

I have read that Mississippi has changed the primitive weapon law again...It appears that they will allow any single shot breach loading rifle in .35 caliber or larger...I don't know if the accusations are true but I heard that Mississippi was threatened with legal action from Thompson Center... TC claimed that they were illegally excluded from meeting the criteria.... I already hear of people talking about trading in their 45-70 handi for a brand new TC in 35 wheelen, or 350 remnington magnum, I even heard one guy  mention a 375 H&H....Maybe I'll be able to pick up another 45-70 real cheap....

[jpshaw]

I wonder if Louisiana will have a primitive weapon time in the next hunting season?

[yooper77]

I am not from Mississippi, but what is the purpose of a primitive weapon season.

What were the firearms that used to be only allowed?

How can any single shot breach loading rifle in for example 358 Winchester, 35 Whelen or 450 Marlin be considered a primitive weapon?

yooper77

[Qaz]

 They are not, just as the inline muzzleeloaders are not black powder firearms by any sane persons definition. All are high powered rifles, center fire or not.

[STUMPJMPR]

This is how i heard it came about....Initially a small group of shooters who shot primarily trapdoor rifles using only black powder loads petitioned the "powers that be" to allow them to using their rifles for primitive weapon... Then the state legislature took the law and butchered it.... They allowed smokeless powder in a pre 1900 design rifle using any caliber of at least .38....Now they are allowing any single shot with a hammer as long as its 35 caliber or larger.... My biggest problem is not the rifle being used but the calibers they are going to allow..... A 375 H&H magnum or 350 remington magnum being used on our average 130lb white tail....The largest deer I have seen here were only 200lbs and they aren't common....

[petemi]

A Florida Cracker buddy of mine used to say "Et up with the Yankee dumb ass."  This is "Et up with the Rebel Dumb Ass."  All they want to do is sell tags and get revenue.  I say "Primitive" should be primitive, long bows and flintlocks......period.  My huntsman outshoots my .30-30 and my T/C and Cabelas muzzle loaders everyday of the week.  My .45-70 outshoots the Huntsman and all the rest.......where or when does it stop?  .375 H&H....give me a break!

[yooper77]

I don’t feel most people will select a large caliber belted magnums, for use.  The ammo price alone is a show stopper.

You would be surprised on how little damage a 375 H&H Magnum would cause on a deer.

.35 calibers or larger:  Here is a good list of choices, but none are primitive to me.
357 Magnum, 357 Maximum, 357 Herret, 35 Remington, 356 Winchester, 358 Winchester, 35 Whelen, 9.3 x 62 Mauser, 375 Winchester, 38-55 (Ballard) Winchester, 375 JDJ, 405 Winchester,  44-40 Winchester,  44 Special, 44 Magnum, 444 Marlin, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W Magnum, 450 Marlin or 45-70 Govt just to name a few.

yooper77

[stimpylu32]

First you need to understand that 95% of the ones making these laws would not be able to tell you what type of weapon they had if you handed it to them .

These are the same type people that here in Ohio will not let you use a 18" rifle in 44 mag but you can use a 16" barreled TC Contender handgun or a in-line 50 cal with the same sabot-ed bullet as either gun .

The same people that feel that a 410 slug is more that fine to shoot at a 250# deer @ 100 yards with or that the new compound super bows are ok just like the old recurve .

Point being -- YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID and till we have true HUNTERS making these laws things will continue to go this way .

Rant over

stimpy

[quickdtoo]

Their regs just state what weapons are legal for use in their primitive season, just another tool to manage the deer population.
Here are the old regs....

Tim

http://www.mdwfp.com/Level2/Wildlife/hunting_regs.asp

PRIMITIVE WEAPONS
"Primitive firearms" for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double barreled muzzle-loading rifles of at least .38 caliber; single shot, breech loading, cartridge rifles (.38 caliber or larger) of a kind and type manufactured prior to 1900, and replicas, reproductions or reintroductions of those type rifles; and single or double-barreled muzzle-loading, shotguns with single ball or slug. All muzzle-loading Primitive Firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with either percussion caps or #209 shotgun primers or flintlock ignition. Breech loading single shot rifles must have exposed hammers and use metallic cartridges. Cartridges may be loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. Scopes of any magnification are allowed on primitive weapons. Sidearms are not allowed during primitive weapon season

[BBF]

I don't think you are going to have many people shoot 375 H&H or the Ruger in that calibre as well.

[jjas]

Stimpy quote:These are the same type people that here in Ohio will not let you use a 18" rifle in 44 mag but you can use a 16" barreled TC Contender handgun or a in-line 50 cal with the same sabot-ed bullet as either gun .


As a resident of Indiana (who does allow such a firearm), there are people here who totally disagree with the pistol cartridge law that was passed two seasons ago.  But yet, it's okay to use a TC encore pistol in anything .243 or above, a saboted shotgun slug, and an inline muzzleloader with a saboted bullet too, but heaven forbid I use a .44 magnum single shot rifle as it apparently turns me into the deer terminator!

BTW,  last year (the first season for pcr use), a whopping 1200 deer were killed with them, so much for slaying the deer with our new found deer bazookas.

Jim

[jsoukup]

Sounds like they need to scrap the whole thing and go to blackpowder and shotguns slugs only.

[petemi]

I don't have any problem with pistol caliber carbines for deer.  I think most states have learned they are safer than the modern slug guns.  I DO have a problem with any of them calling them PRIMITIVE.  That is just hog wash.  What is the difference between a Handi .44 Mag and a Ruger semi auto or etc. etc. etc.?  And when in creation was the .44 magnum primitive??? And on I go.....I'm sorry.  I'm a muzzle loader too, and it just gets me.

When you whack a deer with a long bow or a .62 caliber smooth bore flint lock trade gun, THAT IS PRIMITIVE hunting.  Your Handi or Knight in-line is not.  And any cased cartridge will never be.   If you don't believe me, ask Stimpy.

[stimpylu32]

Thanks Pete , now you went and done it , the way I see it Primitive weapon is a rock , club , knife , spear , long bow , flintlock and a Matchlock , any thing else is a Modern Weapon , at NO point is a new in-line ML with an Electronic firing system Primitive Weapon and neither is a Handi or TC .

Lets call then what they are , and use some common sense too , If a in-line ML with a 45 cal sabot that will drop a deer at 200 yards is Ok to use why not a breach loading 45/70 with the same bullet and powder charge .

Rant now over -- maybe

stimpy

[jsoukup]

Thanks Pete , now you went and done it , the way I see it Primitive weapon is a rock , club , knife , spear , long bow , flintlock and a Matchlock ,

What about deadfalls, snares, and pit traps filled with pungi sticks? Or better yet, just herding the animals off a cliff. j/k

Leave it up to a politician to complicate things. Given man's propensity for innovation, if it said "rock" season, someone would come up with some special device for sizing rocks and a handheld device to hurl them accurately out to 200 yards with enough force to stun a bull moose. I think when you make a law that says " this, this, and this, but not this and this" you end up with problems.

Given that, probably in the next 20 years we'll get slug guns and muzzle loaders that will reliably work and hit out to 400 yards for the average joe.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone, it's just food for thought and the need for clearly defined laws with little room for the "yeah but.." crowd.

[STUMPJMPR]

I don't have any right to complain.... I went out and bought an H&R in 45-70 as soon as I could after they passed the law.... I had lost my muzzle loader a year earlier in a storm and why spend the money on a ML when i could buy the H&R cheaper... I know the H&R is by no means primitive but as long as they will allow it I will probably use it... It is just so much less hassle... I mostly disagree with the calibers they are going to allow...

[silver surfer]

  I just perused the game  laws and as far as I can read all bag limits and seasons have been finalised.  I found absolutely nothing about .35 caliber cartridge rifles being O.K. to big game hunt with.  I have read where some Management Area's allow muzzle loaders of .40 caliber and less to small game hunt, but, I could not find this in the states general regulations.  That would be fun sqirrel hunting with a .36 or .32 caliber Long rifle.    I do know the way the law was, and still is, all you can legally use is a .22lr or shotgun with game loads.  I hope they do add that into law!
  Now being a resident and a hunter here in Ole Miss whether I agree to the "law" or not; It is law.  What I would present to you guys in support of our legislators is that Mississippi has had a very rough three years.  When "Katrina" came through most, not part, MOST of the state suffered heavy damage.  To be honest other than the coast, most people are still fixing it on their own, my family included.  From what I have learned from conversation, the state had considered this for several years before "Katrina".  When the storm came through this "idea" became a source of revenue.  License sales, both instate and out have risen.  I dont have exact figures, but I would speculate 40% total.  Another bonus was the rabid sales of Buffalo Classic H&R's.  I am telling you from personal experience you could not find, see, smell, or buy one unless you ordered one from out of state.  Sales have subsided over last year, but hunting season is still a way off .
   Whether or not you approve or not of the law it does have its benefits.  The other day I was at Gander Mountain in Hattiesburg and a gentleman and I struck up a conversation over a 45-70 BC.  He brought up a great point that after thinking about it I have worried about myself.  He was thinking about getting it for himself and his son.  He already had a muzzleloader and during primitive season he would let his son use the BC "so I dont have to worry about him mis-loading it" .  That would give the children a safer option and more time in the woods.  A Win / Win!
My $.02.


1.PRIMITIVE WEAPONS
"Primitive firearms" for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double barreled muzzle-loading rifles of at least .38 caliber; single shot, breech loading, cartridge rifles (.38 caliber or larger) of a kind and type manufactured prior to 1900, and replicas, reproductions or reintroductions of those type rifles; and single or double-barreled muzzle-loading shotguns with single ball or slug. All muzzle-loading Primitive Firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with either percussion caps or #209 shotgun primers or flintlock ignition. Breech loading single shot rifles must have exposed hammers and use metallic cartridges. Cartridges may be loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. Scopes of any magnification are allowed on primitive weapons. Sidearms are not allowed during primitive weapon season.

[petemi]

Stimpy............Ya Done Good!  Take that Jim Shockey and your North American Grand Slam!!!

[jsoukup]

You could also just put in there "no optics". Meaning iron sights only.That would definately make it more primative if you're trying for a 250 yard shot.

[petemi]

You could also just put in there "no optics". Meaning iron sights only.That would definately make it more primative if you're trying for a 250 yard shot.

You are 1000% correct.  To me, it is so obvious I never thought to mention it.  ALL our sidehammers wear iron.

[quickdtoo]

The idea of adding cartridge guns to their legal weapons is to kill more deer, hindering hunters with iron sights would be counter productive in reaching their goals of controlling the deer population without resorting to culling operations which are expensive, let the hunters take care of the problem. As has been mentioned, Louisiana is apparently jumping on the same bandwagon, below is their proposed 2008-09 regs, looks familiar!

Tim

http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/pdfs/hunting/LA_20Hunt08.pdf

Page 10....

J. PRIMITIVE FIREARMS SEGMENT:
......
 Single shot, breech loading rifles, .38 caliber or larger, of a kind or type manufactured prior
to 1900 and replicas, reproductions or reintroductions of that type rifle having an exposed
hammer that use metallic cartridges loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless
powder.
All of the above may be fitted with magnified scopes

[PHATINJUN]

"I don't have any problem with pistol caliber carbines for deer.  I think most states have learned they are safer than the modern slug guns."

Pete I got to here your explaination for this ;DKurt

[STUMPJMPR]

http://www.mdwfp.com/Level2/Wildlife/pdf/final/2008/LE5-2280.pdf

Silver Surfer,
I hope this clarifies it... MDWFP is really behind in updating their sight....

It took me a while to find the link....All of my information was on the MDWFP forum.... Above is a copy of the bill.... They clarified .38 caliber as .357....

[JDMANN]

I am a lifelong resident of LA.  I hunt here and in MS.  I have no problem with this new rule.  I feel that, within reason, hunt with whatever legal weapon you want to.  Bow, rifle, shotgun, whatever!  Our DWF sets seasons and harvest goals to maintain a healthy herd.  They, of course, balance this with some eye toward hunter satisfaction.  To say we are some backwards fools for our rules is insulting.  To say our hunting laws pass to get more votes is demeaning.  You don't have to hunt here if you don't like the way we do things!  However, we are the Sportsman's Paradise, and welcome anyone to our woods.  Bon soir et bon chasse! (good night and good hunting)

[jsoukup]

The idea of adding cartridge guns to their legal weapons is to kill more deer, hindering hunters with iron sights would be counter productive in reaching their goals of controlling the deer population without resorting to culling operations which are expensive, let the hunters take care of the problem. A

Then why have a separate primative season? Just start regular rifle season earlier/later and add an extra tag.

[ro]

STUMPJMPR, yes you are right, a few years ago a group of well to do good ole boys who owned and shot trapdoor rifles wanted to deer hunt with them in primitive season, so they got together with a few law makers down in Jackson and the law passed, but what they missed was the H & R was also made before 1900, so it opened up the whole season for the handi-rifle to be legal in primitive season, after that they changed the black powder to smokeless power for the .38 cal. or larger, pre 1900 rifles, now they have changed it again they dropped the pre 1900 date and .38 cal down to .35 caliber, so yes this change makes the T/C Encore a legal rifle here in Mississippi for primitive season along with handi-rifle, so like it or not its the new law, they should just call it gun season, i can hunt with my nef 45/70 but not with my Marlin lever 45/70 same shell just different rifle makes allot of since.

[silver surfer]

Thanks for the link Stumpjmpr.  Not much of a "Public Notice" now is it?   Well it is what is.  Something tells me this is a law they will regret.

[GrassLakeRon]

Hi all,

     I have shot a whitetail with a 375 H&H.  You download the velocity to 375 Winchester specs with a 235 grain bullet.  It doesn't waste as much meat as my 06'.  I will go out on a limb here and say that I round like the federal 270 grain H&H would not waste as much ether.  You shot what you have and work around the issues that they bring up.  Happy Hunting.

Ron

[headoftheholler]

Lets try to keep in mind that bickering over regulations only seperates us instead of unifying us.  Heated debates over "PRIMITIVE" regs and crossbow regs only give more ammo to the anti's.

[petemi]

"I don't have any problem with pistol caliber carbines for deer.  I think most states have learned they are safer than the modern slug guns."

Pete I got to here your explaination for this ;DKurt

Kurt, I believe I read it right here on H&R Talk.  They have found that the rifled shotgun, shooting sabots, carries farther with more engergy than pistol caliber carbines.  I believe it is a fact, if you think about it.  Any more information from anyone??