Author Topic: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??  (Read 2642 times)

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Offline cajun

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45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« on: July 14, 2008, 04:44:49 AM »
Thinking about getting either a 45-70 or 444 Marlin H&R for deer hunting here in Louisiana.  I'm not familiar with either caliber and was looking for any help/input on picking the correct caliber.

Thanks,

John

Offline BBF

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2008, 05:09:00 AM »
Either one will be just fine.

 If you don't reload the 444 only comes in two full loads and you are going to feel some recoil. Remington and Hornady are the only two that I know of.

The 45-70 comes in mostly mild loads but they can be loaded up to an" OUCH" level which you don't need for deer.

Since you don't have either I would vote for the 45-70 Govt
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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2008, 05:13:09 AM »
I too would go with the 45/70 , It comes in more load levels and has a much better bullet selection than that of the 444 in factory loaded ammo .

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Offline petemi

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2008, 05:19:57 AM »
Me too.  .45-70.  Shoot the Hornady 325 gr. Leverevolutions and you won't look back. Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2008, 05:25:01 AM »
I've got both and like the 444 very well.  That said, 45-70 probably has a better selection.  Both will get your attention when you touch them off. :o   DP.
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Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2008, 05:54:28 AM »
I vote for the 45-70 with the leverevolution.... Most of the them shoot great... The 444 is also a good cartridge from what i hear....

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2008, 06:03:32 AM »
The only advantage to the 444 is if you reload, you could use the same bullets as a .44 mag.  Also, in a pinch, you can shoot a 410 shotgun shell and a .44 mag out of the .444.  Bullet would probably not stablise well because of the travel distance before rifling.  With the .45-70 as said, you can get mild to wild with factory loads. 

Offline Sourdough

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2008, 08:19:58 AM »
I feel the advantage lies with the 45-70.  If you reload, a much wider selection of bullets.  And you can select the power you want from the light loads for the old trapdoors.  To the heavier loads in the manuals for lever guns.  If you don't reload you can buy factory Remington loads which are light for the Trapdoors, or Buffalo Bore heavy loads, which ever you want.  I load up some real light loads using 300gr bullets for kids, they love them.  The recoil is just a heavy shove, that kids handle well.  My son loads some heavy loads using 400gr bullets for hunting bears over bait that will definitely get your attention.

My recommendation is for the 45-70!  Also the .444 shoots pistol bullets that are not really designed for rifle velocities, and do no hold up well for shooting anything bigger than a deer.  Jacket is too soft.
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Offline Ten Ring

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2008, 09:29:10 AM »
Just my two cents worth, I've taken large deer with both but if your shooting 200 yds I would use the 444.
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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2008, 09:34:28 AM »
45-70 has a better selection of bullets, but not all .429 slugs are for pistol.  Jacketed or cast will work in 444.  Neither is great for long range hunting.  DP.
RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline silver surfer

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2008, 11:22:03 AM »
John its been said already.  Both will get the job done, but for versatility and distance 45-70.  Its the difference between 38 specials and 357's.  I would buy the BC and never have a regret; yes I am biased; yes I love mine; and yes they shoot great ;D.  That's just my $.02's worth.
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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2008, 01:42:57 PM »
Might be closer to a dime. ;D  DP.
RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline NFG

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2008, 06:55:00 AM »
If you're a reloader, go with the 444...or the 45-70.  If you're NOT a reloader, go with the 45-70...or the 444.  If you're a woods  hunter 150 yds or less...go with the 444...or the 45-70...then again there's the 450 M.  If you're contemplating something a little farther out...go with a higher velocity, smaller caliber like 270, 280, 308, 30-06, 25-05 etc.

In other words, for woods hunting or less than 200 yds, discounting all the media hoopala, ther 444, 45-70, or 450 M will do the job at "normal" hunting ranges.  Make your own choice, you will be happier.  On the other hand if you let someone else choose, you can always blame them if you're not satisfied...a built in whine.   ??? ;D

'Njoy

Offline Dust_Remover

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2008, 11:06:19 AM »
You can't go wrong with a cartridge that's been around since 1873, and is still very popular.  Sounds like the .45-70 is a winner to me.  However it comes down to personal preference.  I like heavy and slow, and you can get more heavy with the .45-70 than you can with the .444.  You want to send 500+ grain pills downrange in the .45 you can, you can't with the .444.

Branden

Offline cajun

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2008, 04:39:41 AM »
Thanks for all the input and the consensus seems to be that the 45-70 is the way to go. 

BUT, I will not be reloading for the rifle that I purchase so looked at the Hornady ammunition and the ballistics.  The ballistics on the 444 Marlin are significantly better than those of the 45-70.  Now, I realize that I am comparing a 265 grain bullet to a 325 grain.  Since I will only be using this for whitetail deer hunting, am I not better going with the caliber with the better ballistics?  Also, what is the recoil like on the two rounds........say compared to a 30-06?

Thanks,,,,

John

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2008, 04:59:24 AM »
The ballistics are fairly close with a slight edge on the trajectory going to the 444M.... The recoil on the 45-70 is probably close to the 30-06 without the snap.....I find it to be a slower recoil so it doesn't hurt as bad....

Buy what you feel comfortable with buying....They both will kill deer and in the end it only matters if your happy with the purchase.....

Offline TribReady

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2008, 05:31:34 AM »
The last 2 posts seem to sum it up (yours and STUMPJMPR).
Both rounds are perfectly fine for your intentions, so now, just find the rifle you like and don't look back.
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Offline petemi

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2008, 06:35:59 AM »
If you're a reloader, go with the 444...or the 45-70.  If you're NOT a reloader, go with the 45-70...or the 444.  If you're a woods  hunter 150 yds or less...go with the 444...or the 45-70...then again there's the 450 M.  If you're contemplating something a little farther out...go with a higher velocity, smaller caliber like 270, 280, 308, 30-06, 25-05 etc.

In other words, for woods hunting or less than 200 yds, discounting all the media hoopala, ther 444, 45-70, or 450 M will do the job at "normal" hunting ranges.  Make your own choice, you will be happier.  On the other hand if you let someone else choose, you can always blame them if you're not satisfied...a built in whine.   ??? ;D

'Njoy
I don't have a clue why a lot of people want to make the .45-70 a short range rifle.  It is not by any means.  Learn what it can do, and it will kill virtually anything in North America you can lay your sights on.  To the best of my knowledge, the .45-70 LE outshoots the .444 with more energy down range.  The Buffalo Bores will handle anything you can find here or in Alaska.
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline NFG

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2008, 07:02:33 AM »
The 30-06 with a 180 gr bullet using Hornady LM numbers gives recoil velocity of 13.4 f/s and energy of 22.3 ftlbs...considered Vigorous, which according to conventional wisdom is right at the edge of the average hunters recoil acceptance...yours may be different...

The 45-70 using Hornady's 325 gr bullet gives 15.9 f/s and 31.4 and is considered Heavy...near what a 300 mag, 200+ gr bullet gives at max loads if you haven't fired off a heavy cal before...again you may be able to handle it or not... and if you have to ask....

Recoil is so subjective as to be meaningless when it comes to describing it in post...every one has differing levels of sensitivity.  I'm 5-10, weigh 250lbs and recoil doesn't seem to bother me all that much...although a range session with recoil levels of 50-80 ftlbs will leave me vibrating like a tuning fork...and more than a little twitchy.  My 416 and 45-70 cals using 400 to 525 gr bullets at 1800 to 2400 f/s doesn't bother me all that much, but you have to determine your own levels of pain enjoyment.

The best way to determine if you"want" to consider any of the large cal shooters is to find someone who has a rifle in the cal you are considering, forget what they say about "how much it slaps you around" and shoot 10 rounds or so, several times, the same way you expect to shoot it hunting.

Personally I find the 444 to be an almost perfect woods gun...not a lot of slap, plenty of killing energy, plenty of bullet choices...you don't need a lot of choice anyway for large caliber slugs.  These rifles are not designed for "all around shooting", they were more specific in their designed uses, and not necessarily just for hunting 4 legged animals.

The 444 and 45-70 can be loaded up and down in a wide range of bullet weights and velocities from duplicating the 44 mag to near 458 Lott with the longer barreled shooters.  There is nothing that says you have to load either up to seam splitting, gut busting numbers.

If you are considering a 22" NEF, then consider it will "kick" much harder a 5 lbs than a 1895 Marlin at 8 lbs and I hear enough whining about how much that levergun hurts.  I have the NEF BC with added weight and think it's the cats meow.

While the 45-70 will kill anything in the world, the problem is with the rainbow trajectory and very few taking the time to work the numbers...thus the 150-200 yd range reference.  It doesn't take but a few minutes with the drop tables and I'm not nit picking here, the average hunters abilities are nearer the questionable end than the knowledgeable end of that spectrum.  I shoot squirrels out past 400 yds regularly with my BC, but without a laser range finder and my drop tables for the particular load I'm using, my percentage of hits would be even more dismal than it is.  I don't know anyone with a bionic eye that can determine even 25 yd differences in range to 100 yds much less the same at 400 plus, and at those ranges were talking 1" or more drop per 25 yds.  I might be able to crater the little buggers and claim a hit way out yonder just because the bullet is so big in relation to the size of the victim, besides I don't rely on "by guess and by golly" when it comes to killing, I think is it a hunters duty to kill as quickly and a humanely as possible so I limit my ranges to specific distances with different calibers.  Just because it can kill...I'm talking any caliber or cartridge and any distance...doesn't mean it should be used.

Hey...as been said several times...pick your poison, forget the rhetoric, shoot it and have fun.

'Njoy

Offline petemi

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2008, 08:09:38 AM »
Any bullet, .22 short or .45-70 crosses the line of sight twice, once climbing and again dropping.  It isn't rocket science to figure where to aim at 100 or 300 yards. I usually choose a long range trajectory table for the load I want to shoot and sight in at the "bullet rising" point of the chart.  Usually 25 to 50 yards.  Then I shoot it at the 200 to make sure it is on.  Then I go back to the chart and look at the drop from 200 - 300 yards and I half that.  Now I'm dead on at 50-75, 2'' high at 200 and dead on at 250 and 2 " low at 300.  This is just a crude example with average numbers, but it works and makes the big slow bullet work.  Again...these numbers are not actual, just used as an example.  IMHO most rifles sighted at 200 - 300 yards will be dead nuts on at 50 or less.
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline cajun

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2008, 08:32:23 AM »
NFG:

The NEF in either 444 Marlin or 45-70 Govt is exactly what I am looking at purchasing.  But I thought that the NEF weighed in at around 7 pounds??

Thanks,

John

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2008, 11:47:49 AM »
My .444 Handi w/laminated stock set, scope and rings weighs 8lbs on the button, I've shot max loads with 240gr and 265gr jacketed bullets, as well as 355gr cast bullets, 240/265gr recoil feels just like it's a 30-06 which I shoot in the same confiiguration. The lam stock set weighs 2lbs compared to 1lb-9oz for a pallet wood set. If the recoil were heavier I'd have a Limbsaver on it for the heaviest of loads like the 355gr cast bullets at a little over 2000fps, but the lighter bullets feel more like the 30-06. My 45-70's have Limbsavers on them, but I shoot levergun level loads in them, 300gr at over 2400fps, those let you know when they leave the gun!! :o ;D The 45-70 holds considerably more powder than the 444, so the weight of that powder adds to the recoil, so that's likely part of why the 45-70 has more punch on both ends. An apples to apples comparison for 300gr bullets in the Lyman 48th, the 444 has a max charge of 44gr of RL7, a 300gr bullet in their Ruger 45-70 loads which has a max pressure of 40kcup, same as Hodgdon and Hornady levergun data, max charge is 57gr RL7. If you go to a recoil calculator, you'll see that powder weight is part of the equation. http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

Tim

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Offline BBF

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2008, 07:13:17 AM »
Since you seem set on the 444 and it is as good of a choice as the 45-70, I would recommend using the Hornady 265 gr bullets for all your hunting. It opens well enough on deer and it stays together on moose. The bullets opened up to almost 1" and lost very little weight. I have done it  myself and have friends with similar experience. When I had my 444, the LE ammo was not available so I can't comment on it. I used IMR 4198.

  I recommend the following setup for the 265 gr Hornady at 2100 fps

      50 yards     100 yards     150 yards       200 yards       225 yards
        +2.0"           + 3.00"      -- 1.00"           --4.5"             -- 9.00"    you still got approx 1000ftlb left
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Offline cajun

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2008, 06:48:51 AM »
Well, guys, I decided to go in a totally different direction.  I'm sending my Ultra receiver off to have it fitted with a 44 Mag. barrel.  I plan on using this mainly for the primitive weapon season here in Louisiana.  It will cost less to shoot and be a little more kind to my bad shoulders.  It will be my 100 yard or less gun.

Thanks,

John

Offline NFG

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2008, 08:28:26 AM »
I'm not quite sure what an NEF rifle weighs...it depends entirely on the way it is fitted out.  My 45-70 BC weighs 13 lbs...scope, larger fore end with extra weight and some extra weight in the buttstock.  The synthetic stocked ones even with heavy barrels don't seem to weight much, and the stub barreled ones are even lighter, although I haven't weighed any of them.  I was just using the difference as an example...nothing in this world is cut in stone or immutable.

The 45-70 will always be a more powerful rifle loaded near top ranges...there isn't any question about that...heavier and larger dia bullets, larger case volume, and much more "slap me around won't you"...if that is what you're looking for then go for it.  I just think the 444 is the "Ideal" WOODS rifle, for the distances normally encounted among the trees.  It has more bullet weight and energy when compared to the 30-30, 307/308, 356/358 and 375 W leverguns although I might pick the 375  just because I like that caliber and the bullets have better BC's, and a lot less slap than the 45-70...much more pleasant to shoot so maybe you will practice more and become a better shooter.   ;)

It seems to be moot at this point...the 44 Mag is also an excellent short range cartridge...besides if you want you can take it out to 445 Super mag for a bit more pizzazz and then when you get tired of playing with "little" toys...to the 444 Marlin.   Hahahahahaha  ;D  Just ragging on ya.

'Njoy what ever you end up with.

Offline cajun

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2008, 10:08:18 AM »
Yeah, I'll admit I am a sissy!  Recoil is my enemy.

But, I figure a well placed shot with a small caliber is better than a poorly placed shot with something that makes me flinch. 

Thanks,

John ;) ;) ;)

Offline petemi

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2008, 10:42:44 AM »
I shoot my .45-70 almost every day and I'm only a little 150 lb. squirt.  Yeah, it kicks, but I know it will and I don't flinch.  When I'm hunting, I don't even hear the gun go off, let alone flinch.  I don't know if I can explain it well, but when I shoot, I hold the rifle tight to my shoulder, but my body is relaxed and gives with the recoil.  If you jam against it, it is going to hurt.  IMHO the .45-70 will do anything in the woods or out that the .35 Rem. thru .444 do, but it will also shoot 500 yards if you want it to.  And, it is a Blam Flopper.
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2008, 10:44:51 AM »
John, as NFG mentioned, the 445 Supermag rechamber is a good one, can be done by hand with a $35 rented reamer, it'll push a 300gr XTP over 1900fps with less recoil than the 45-70 as stated by the many members here that shoot the Supermag. That's always an option if you want a little more range, GBO sponsor Reeds Ammo sells ammo for it if you won't be reloading for it. But Hornady has 44mag Leverevolution ammo for it also, I have some for my 44mag Handi, but haven't shot it yet, maybe next week, finally getting the house honey-doos done!! ::) :D

Tim

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Offline Old Grizz

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2008, 12:34:07 PM »
Yeah, I'll admit I am a sissy!  Recoil is my enemy.

But, I figure a well placed shot with a small caliber is better than a poorly placed shot with something that makes me flinch. 

Thanks,

John ;) ;) ;)


I agree with most everyone when they say go with the 45-70, but if recoil is your enemy, try the 30-30, it's killed more deer than any load ever has and recoil is at a minimum.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 or 444 Marlin??
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2008, 01:21:11 PM »
That's true Grizz, but the 30-30 doesn't meet the requirements for the new primitive regs minimum cal of .38 or larger in LA.  ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain