Author Topic: McCain on Healthcare.... (Read 3217 times)

Cabin4 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 22, 2008, 05:15:29 PM »

Quote from: TM7 on July 21, 2008, 11:34:08 AM

Cabin....I know doctors that want a unified healthcare system, possibly an expanded Medicare type system which operates OK when doctors and med agencies aren't ripping it off. They say it would be good for business, more business, and they would get paid. They say they spend too much on admin in their offices to cover all the crazy plans and variations, record keeping requirements and other BS. I guy I use to play golf with (ear,eye,nose, throat MD) claims he has 2 and 1/2 personnel just to handle admin caused by all the insurance company mayhem and chaos.

..TM7

The doctor you know has a very differant opinion then the one I know.

In my opinion, the solution is worse then the problem. Getting washington involved in health will be a death sentance.

BTW: the 45 million with no health care insurance includes the 20 or so million illegal aliens which Obama wants to cover...... So the real number of Americans without coverage is in the 20 million range. Of course Obama and the Dems say 45million becasue no one looks into the detail and the press never reports on it...

Dee · « **Reply #31 on:** July 23, 2008, 01:42:20 AM »

Do YOU actually believe that the 20,000,000 or so ILLEGALS in this country "that MCCAIN wants to give amnesty to", will not CONTINUE to get free health care at our emergency rooms at hospitals until the hospitals can no longer support the loss, because, we Americans can no longer pay premiums on Insurance that is over charged by these hospitals, whom are trying to keep their doors open, BECAUSE of McCAIN'S and OTHER LIBERAL'S policies? With McCain OR Obama, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California will continue to loose much needed hospitals and clinics. This trend is steadily spreading to other states, as liberals with the same views as McCain and Obama CONTINUE to pedal their out of touch agendas. The Constitution and Bill of Rights means nothing to either of these gents. THEIR IDEAS, in both their minds, are far superior to either document.
McCain is as big a liberal, and is as OUT OF TOUCH as OBAMA! And the American people are torn in two, because neither side will give in to the fact, that the two parties have actually became one. They the people, will continue to vote one or the other into office, hoping against hope, and point fingers at "each other" all the way.
I am against Obama's idea of socialized health care, and AWARE ENOUGH, to know that McCain's idea of OPEN BORDERS, will FINISH OFF, the present health care system. Open market, free enterprise health care, cannot survive EITHER CANDIDATE.
Democrat or Republican. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Government WILL NOT CHANGE (it has no need to), until PEOPLE AND THEIR VOTING "HABITS" CHANGE.

BBF · « **Reply #32 on:** July 23, 2008, 03:02:09 AM »

As a Canadian I will admit that our system isn't perfect and could certainly stand improvemen BUT at least we have a system!!

I do think our system it is better then your system if it even can be called that. When you have a situation where you need to load up the Emergency part of your hospitals for folks that need routine medical services but can't afford to pay for them, is this efficient? Employees in well paying jobs get Med coverage as part of their wage packages. The people that are on the low end of wages and certainly can't afford to pay private insurance get nothing.

We don't have older citizen here loosing their homes and all savings so they can pay hospitals that make them destitute. The Govt sets a fee schedule for services, not what the traffic can bear and I do have the choice of what MD to see.

I do have extra coverage for drug cost, dental vision and hearing which are part of my private pension package from a crown corporation. A quick estimate would have me pay triple for medication in the US as compared to here and I don't even want to think about Doctor,Hospital,Dentist costs.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #33 on:** July 23, 2008, 04:10:30 AM »

45-70 GOVT. Do you include the tax in the cost ?
The problem in the US is the Govt. gets involved in on aspect of medical care and not the rest . As example they require extensive testing on new drugs and then allows the price to remain high to cover the testing they mandate to get approval and lic. . If no bad drugs got on the market it would be nice but that just ain't so . So then the drug co's get big law suits and the Govt. stands back like it wasn't involved . Then insurance cost go thru. the roof and a $.10 pill cost $ 100.00 ! We have a system , a bad one !
Got to wonder what would happen if Govt. backed out . No grants etc.
THe folks i hunt with in Manatoba don't care for ya'lls system much .

Explorer1 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 23, 2008, 07:05:46 PM »

As a disabled vet, I know how screwed up our Government run system is. Looking at the policy Congress has, admit that they will ALWAYS pamper themselves LONG before dealing with unenlightened masses, after they are the self-appointed elite who are more important as they have to take care of the rest of us.

That said, our health care system did work and worked very well. At least until wage controls drove businesses to find another way to hire folks and the got into the benefits business. Now many of us depend on our employer to tell us what we can get, nearly as bad as having the Government make those choices and sometimes worse as business understands the bottom while Government just writes another bad check.

Thus the real answer is to Government OUT of the health care provider business!!! When people understand the options and have to make choices, those $1,000 tests will look less attractive unless there is a real benefit (other than suit protection for your doctor). When people understand they use a multitude of those benefit seldom, they will figure out buy coverage is much more expensive than just simply paying for the rare occasion in which they need the benefit. (note the increased interest in high deductible plan, this proves my point).

Yes, some folks will always need help. That's when family, friends, churches, and communities have aid programs. Getting the Goverment out of the business of adding costs to medical care will reduce it to where more can manage for themselves, reduce taxes, and increase options available to all. Not to mention not having to search for a doctor that accepts your coverage plan and is accepting patients.

But that would the power of Government and make people responsible for their actions - neither of which seems to be a popular answer in today's "I deserve it" society!

Ruskin · « **Reply #35 on:** July 24, 2008, 03:49:26 AM »

go to Boortz.com (07/24). He has an interesting insight into healthcare in Canada. Our heathcare has been hi-jacked by Big Pharma through campaign contributions to those that are in a position to do something about our healthcare.

If a woman can have an abortion why can't my doctor an mysaelf determine treatment whatever it might be. Doctors practice not to get sued. They follow protocols which if they go to court for malpractice they will be able to use as a defense.

Read some of the websites about prescription drug damage. Go to LEG.org for a different look at health issues.

BBF · « **Reply #36 on:** July 24, 2008, 07:28:12 AM »

Shootall: I am not sure what you are asking re the cost of tax. There is no question in my mind that we pay more taxes here for about anything then you would pay in the US. Certainly a country the size of Canada and the small population wold require more $$ per person. I am in no way saying that Ottawa shows more smarts then Washinton DC in many decisions. I never lived in Manitoba so I can't shed light on what goes on.

What we do have at the moment, and I am grateful, is a minority government. The party in power needs at least one of the others to push through legislation so they can't go hog wild. We have 3 national parties plus one provincial party that has a federal arm to it. Their entire electorate is in one Province only.

There many be an independent or two and possible some Greens at times but not enough of the later two to make any difference in most cases. I think that the present situation in your choices would be much easier if you did have a viable 3rd party IMO

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #37 on:** July 24, 2008, 10:14:47 AM »

45-70, Either insurance deductions from pay or tax its still a cost here or there .
Why would the land mass cause the tax to be more ?

Cabin4 · « **Reply #38 on:** July 24, 2008, 10:22:29 AM »

Quote from: Dee on July 23, 2008, 01:42:20 AM

Do YOU actually believe that the 20,000,000 or so ILLEGALS in this country "that MCCAIN wants to give amnesty to", will not CONTINUE to get free health care at our emergency rooms at hospitals until the hospitals can no longer support the loss, because, we Americans can no longer pay premiums on Insurance that is over charged by these hospitals, whom are trying to keep their doors open, BECAUSE of McCAIN'S and OTHER LIBERAL'S policies? With McCain OR Obama, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California will continue to loose much needed hospitals and clinics. This trend is steadily spreading to other states, as liberals with the same views as McCain and Obama CONTINUE to pedal their out of touch agendas. The Constitution and Bill of Rights means nothing to either of these gents. THEIR IDEAS, in both their minds, are far superior to either document.
McCain is as big a liberal, and is as OUT OF TOUCH as OBAMA! And the American people are torn in two, because neither side will give in to the fact, that the two parties have actually became one. They the people, will continue to vote one or the other into office, hoping against hope, and point fingers at "each other" all the way.
I am against Obama's idea of socialized health care, and AWARE ENOUGH, to know that McCain's idea of OPEN BORDERS, will FINISH OFF, the present health care system. Open market, free enterprise health care, cannot survive EITHER CANDIDATE.
Democrat or Republican. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Government WILL NOT CHANGE (it has no need to), until PEOPLE AND THEIR VOTING "HABITS" CHANGE.

The difference is McCain is not advocating gov health insurance nor his he advocating socialized medicine. This is the slippery slop we need to avoid.

If McCain is advocating amnesty for illegals, that does not mean they get free health insurance policy. To your point, they would get free ER services from public hospitals but they get that today anyway.

McCain is wrong on amnesty and we should deport illegals. Obama is wrong because he wants socialized medicine and amnesty and open boarders.

So the only point is, Obama is worse then McCain.

Dee · « **Reply #39 on:** July 24, 2008, 01:08:03 PM »

cabin4 we have some common ground here, and are in somewhat agreement. I just do not see the lessor of the two evils as the answer.
I believe rebellion at the polls is the ONLY answer. It cannot be undone over night, but one MUST start somewhere, sometime, and at the present, it continues to worsen with each voting cycle.
I still contend, Washington will not change, until WE change.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #40 on:** July 25, 2008, 01:20:30 AM »

Dee , rebellion at the polls ? The rebellion has been going on in DC for sometime now . The elected have rebelled against the will of the people and in some cases the law of the land . I feel a change from party voting would be more a RIGHTING of the system . Maybe the people taking back the power .
Maybe a rebellion against abuse of the system ?

Dee · « **Reply #41 on:** July 25, 2008, 02:08:25 AM »

SHOOTALL, they the government elected have rebelled CONTINUALLY against the Constitution, and Bill of Rights. Their Reward? Re-election! Neither Obama, nor McCain has any regard for the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. They never talk about a return of the government to either document. They only talk about "THEIR OWN IDEAS" TO FIX THE GOVERNMENT.
At the present Congress is going to pass a bail-out of PRIVATE BANK LENDERS, and you and I are going to pay for. It is NOT CONSTITUTIONAL. These banks made bad loans, to people whom signed on for something they couldn't pay for. The government is entering into the mortgage business. They will own your mortgage, and you will furnish them the money to BUY "YOUR" mortgage. George Bush announced YESTERDAY, that he will sign it.

While Obama is against drilling, McCain is for LIMITED DRILLING, and neither have the Constitutional RIGHT to tell the American people i.e. the states what they can, and cannot do with their lands. No drilling will not fix the current crises, and neither will LIMITED DRILLING.
Obama will cut both arms off. McCain is willing to cut only one arm off, THIS TIME! Vote McCain?
We will stew in the economic juices that are occurring as we write, and they will continue to vote themselves RECORD PAY RAISES, and FAMILY BENEFITS PACKAGES, that last for life.
THEY ARE THE NEWLY FORMING ARISTOCRACY OF THE UNITED STATES. WE ARE THE NEWLY FORMING PEASANT CLASS. Yet, we continue to reward them, and justify their denial of our rights, with our vote.
WE PAY $4.00 PLUS A GALLON FOR GAS. THEY TELL US TO BUY SMALLER CARS, AND DRIVE LESS. WE CUT BACK, AND DO WITHOUT. THEY GET INTO THEIR CHAUFFEUR DRIVEN LIMO, GO TO THE AIRPORT, GET ON THEIR JET AND LEAVE! With the "exceptions of a FEW" senators and congressmen such as Ron Paul, there is no longer a left and right in the Democratic and Republican parties. Only left. They are out of touch, and do not care.
To vote either party, is to accept the fact that there will be no change, and we are ok with it. jmo

gypsyman · « **Reply #42 on:** July 25, 2008, 03:16:53 AM »

I can understand DEE's point. Most politicians either were born into politics,(Kennedy,Pelosi,etc.) or big money. They have NEVER, walked the walk. Or, as I like to say, given birth. Even though I was at both my sons births, I didn't feel the pain, my wife was going thru. Most politicians have never had to hold down a job in a factory or plant, working second or third shift for years on end. Be a thousand miles away from home driving a truck in the middle of an ice storm. Just to see half your paycheck disappear to some govt. agency, and then read about corruption and misuse in that agency. I know that there are a few politicians(damn few) that get it. And to let the govt. have more control of health care, will only make matters worse. At least if it's more privatized, we, as indaviduals will have more say so, as to how our money is being used. Don't like the way your insurance is handling your account, change company's. You have a choice with auto,house, boat,etc., try and do that when the govt. runs your health care insurance. gypsyman

Ruskin · « **Reply #43 on:** July 25, 2008, 03:54:24 AM »

I use history to make an argument that the federal government is heading for an iceberg. I have clients that have retired from Ford and GM. In the early years both companies through union pushing have made promises to employees and retirees that they now find they cannot keep. The federal government is and continues to make promises which requires taxpayers dollars. A form of wealth redistribution. Where is the individualism Americans once had? After years in our public school systems, our next generation is being taught the government will take care of them. Our elected idiots are passing around our money to those that can now vote the treasury to themselves through the promises made by our elected.

Both of my automotive clients have been dropped from healthcare plans by Ford and GM. GM also stopped their dividends to a widow. I believe Ford did it earlier. Our healthcare costs don't have market forces to rein them in. Additionally, lawyers have added costs to healthcare system. Maybe it is deserved because doctors have made mistakes which are being addressed in the courts.

Big pharmacy is molding our healthcare system. Remember polio? After Salk's wife died of polio, he took 6 months and developed the polio vaccine. The industry that had been established to fight polio withered and died. If Cancer was cured what would happen to the cancer industry. I doubt we will ever "cure" any diseases. We will treat symptoms not cure.

MGMorden · « **Reply #44 on:** July 25, 2008, 03:58:50 AM »

Quote from: Dee on July 25, 2008, 02:08:25 AM

With the "exceptions of a FEW" senators and congressmen such as Ron Paul, there is no longer a left and right in the Democratic and Republican parties. Only left. They are out of touch, and do not care.
To vote either party, is to accept the fact that there will be no change, and we are ok with it. jmo

Just an addition to this, for you Ron Paul supporters (he was my pick for sure and I may still write him in). Ron Paul is pretty much a Libertarian. He even ran for the Presidency back in 1988 as the Libertarian nominee (even though he was still a registered Republican at the time). Pretty much though only reason he is/was trying to run on the Republican ticket is because a Libertarian nominee has never garnered many votes (because sadly, the American people are still locked into the 2 party mindset).

Not going to get into the specifics here as I don't want to start a flame war or rile anyone up, but you might want to check out http://www.lp.org (or http://www.lp.org/issues if you want their specific positions on the issues).

Cabin4 · « **Reply #45 on:** July 25, 2008, 10:20:44 AM »

Quote from: 45-70 Govt. on July 23, 2008, 03:02:09 AM

As a Canadian I will admit that our system isn't perfect and could certainly stand improvemen BUT at least we have a system!!

This is a great example of exactly what I mean. Here we have a Canadian citizen telling us we (the USA) don't have a health care system. Not only do we already have a system, its superior to the Canadian one!! But this guy has been brain washed by the socialist lobby in Canada so he really believes this! The democrates have done the same thing with this issue for political reasons in conjunction with their freinds that dominate the main stream media.

The USA has the best and the most advanced overall health care system in the world. Its all because of 18million of the 300 milion of us we are going to down grade 280 million of our care to support the 18 million that don't have a policy!!!!! WHat a solution!!

The world travels to the USA when they need the best health care. The world looks to the USA for most all advancements in treatments and medicine. The rest of the world including Canada, sucks our system dry which is one of the issues causing our USA costs to rise. They steal our meds and produce generics while we have to pay for non-generics so the pharmaceutical companies can recoup their R&D costs and continue to operate and develop new drugs for the Canadians and the rest of the worlds socials systems to steal.

Go the the UK, Ireland, Italy, etc and look around. Everyone got rotten teeth because their entire dentistry health delivery system is a complete and total disaster. If that's whats happening on the surface, image whats going on inside.

We are going to take a poop bath so 18million can get a health policy, then when this is done, we'll get phase 2 which is a complete and total take over by washington of the entire industry and services.

Ruskin · « **Reply #46 on:** July 25, 2008, 04:03:16 PM »

I don't think our congress will particpate in what they mandate for us.

Long ago I was taken back when I found out what Sam Gibbons was paying for healthcare while in congress(about 1972-4). It was like $150.00 per month. He was an old geazer then, and I a younger geazer was paying more. They never take the medicine they give us.

Bootz had a good article on people who came from Canada to USA due to life threatening illness.

Ruskin · « **Reply #47 on:** July 26, 2008, 02:24:38 AM »

I saw my first Canadian tax return this year. It had a tax on everything that moved. The rate was high. The form was lengthy. Under a Canadian system preparers would have to do fewer returns and charge more due to the time involved to complete one.

Our foundering fathers are looking down on us and are watching us let the system they put in place slip away.

When I was in Jefferson High, we had to take PAD, Problems of American Democracy. Think about that, our school system was teaching about problems in our system. They were telling us we were the problem, capitalism had failed. The teacher did a line on the chalkboard. Communism on the far left, capitalisn on the far righ, and in the center was socialism. He told us that we would all fold into socialism. As a young mind, I didn't have enough experience to challenge him. If that gabbage is still being taught, then we will be the Socialist States of America, maybe in our lifetime.

Our young people are being taught that government is the answer. The answer is not within themselves. Bought down to the alter of big government.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #48 on:** July 26, 2008, 04:48:18 AM »

TM7,

The only way corporate America will get out of providing health care insurance is if Washington bails them out with government mandated socialized plan. The work place in corporate America is entirely to competitive and health plans are a must in the benefit package.

My brother is a doctor (surgeon) now for over 30 years. His wife is a surgical nurse. I have had countless discussions with them about health care in general and socialized plans in other countries. My brother has traveled to Canada and Europe as part of his job and he has been asked to speak at medical colleges abroad. While yes, Canada as an example covers everyone, everyone get less so the masses can have something and everyone is treated equal in the system. This is the only advantage if you consider this an advantage.

However, it costs more and its tax payer funded and we all know what happens when something is tax payer funded..... cost go up yet more because there's NO Competion at all. All we need is Washington to take over our health care and it will go the way of everything else they take control over, right down the drain and we'll pay more for it and get less. This is not worth it so 18 million can get a plan and the rest of the 280 million have to suffer with them in the "name" of government mandated, socialized equality.

Government is NOT the solution. It is the problem. You want lower health care costs, we need tort reform. The price we pay for tort protection in our health plans is enormous. Not just the legal insurance plans that all doctors must have, it the steps that they must take with every patient that walks in to see them. CYA tests out the you know what so they can cover themselves in the event of a potentail law suite. Litigation and the risk of litigation costs us billions of dollars.

BBF · « **Reply #49 on:** July 26, 2008, 10:05:02 AM »

Shootall:
Canada has to maintain a large infrastructure because of the size of the country. You can drive for hours on some of the highways without seeing more than a handful of vehicles at times. Official bilingual rules add more cost then you would believe.

Or medical system is federally mandated but fully administrated and partially financed through the Provinces. We have for instance in British Columbia Medical Services which is responsible for the administration and collection of fees. A resident in BC must belong to that Plan and pays into it through his employer( partial) or entirely on his own. Last time I lived there it was almost $ 100 per month for a couple. Ontario adds a percentage to the Provincial income tax, so you pay more into their plan if you have a higher income. Nova Scotia my present locality finances their plan thru the General fund.

Our provincial income taxes increase as you move from West to East.

The biggest income tax reduction in the US for the average mortal is his home mortgage interest I believe. There is no such provision in Canada .

TM7: I don't do links etc. Not that 'puter smart

but I think you would be well off staying in the US in regards to taxes. Sales tax for just about everything in Nova Scotia runs 13% at this time

I give you a quick idea. In the Tax year of 2002, having retired the year before with reduced pensions and a wife that cashed some of her savings we had a combined income of $ 42,500. Our income tax, from the Feds and the Province of British Columbia was $ 5,500. add the Medical Insurance of almost $ 1200 to that. This was at the lowest tax rate because of the income level, it goes up quickly thereafter

Cabin4 · « **Reply #50 on:** July 26, 2008, 12:17:26 PM »

No hand gun ownership allowed in Canada!! No place for me.

BBF · « **Reply #51 on:** July 27, 2008, 07:05:35 AM »

TM7 the second level in Fed Income Tax is at 39%
cabin 4. You can own handguns in Canada, but you can't strap it to your body and do theTexas Ranger walk or drive over to yuor buddies back 40 acres and let fly.. There are a number of restrictions as to cal and barrel lenght and probably magazine capacity. There are only two categories of usage that are authorized.. Work( and being a security guard at a local bank does not qualify) or as a targetshooter. Incidentally, home protection will not qualify either.. FIGURES !!

All in All I found it not useful for myself. The nearest pistol range would be over 1 hour to drive.

Ruskin · « **Reply #52 on:** July 27, 2008, 09:57:48 AM »

An unarmed citizen is better know as a servant or slave.

Dee · « **Reply #53 on:** July 27, 2008, 10:54:36 AM »

The Texas Ranger Walk? Like a Canadian would know what that was.
Actually there are two types of categories of gun owners. Free ones, and Canadians.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #54 on:** July 30, 2008, 10:19:27 AM »

A citizen has a gun
A subject does not have a gun

torpedoman · « **Reply #55 on:** July 30, 2008, 12:11:05 PM »

Back to the medical care thing. Your better off with mccains plan because while the dems keep pushing the government coverage they keep cutting what they want to pay the doctors. I dont know what business you are in but i never could run one were the customer decided what they wanted to pay. In a few years no doc will take medicare and thats the plan most of them have we'll take a huge chunk out of your social security for medical care and you wont be able to use it because no doctors will see you.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #56 on:** July 30, 2008, 02:09:24 PM »

The Liberals don't care if they destroy the medical and health care industries. There only goal is that everyone gets the same treatment by the system. If that means everyones gets substandard treatment, their fine with that.

So when you go to your doctor and he's got the talent level of veternarian because the government won't pay worth a poop, that's just fine. If Pharmaceutical companies don't have the money for R&D so they can continue developing great drugs, the Liberals don't care about that because everyone will suffer.

No need to worry, the Liberals are coming!

gypsyman · « **Reply #57 on:** July 30, 2008, 05:09:55 PM »

Just to bad that the lib's are such elitists also. Just like the retirement plans. It's just fine for us, but they'll have their own system, which is of course, much better than ours. gypsyman

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #58 on:** July 31, 2008, 05:31:33 AM »

oh snap !
just say it when we are reduced to total dependence on Govt. for everything the libs. will have won and freedom will be a lost cause !

Cabin4 · « **Reply #59 on:** July 31, 2008, 10:28:16 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 31, 2008, 05:31:33 AM

oh snap !
just say it when we are reduced to total dependence on Govt. for everything the libs. will have won and freedom will be a lost cause !

And once these entitlement plans are put in place, there's NO going back. Another one of our freedoms will be eliminated. Bit by bit, the Liberals are destroying the entire reason why this country came into existence to begin with.

I promise you, that 100 years from now, this will be a completely socialist communist country. The average American is too stupid to see it coming. All they see is free things and assumed solutions to wide spread issues. Too bad the solution provider they are choosing (the Government) is worse then the problem.