Author Topic: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC  (Read 3789 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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I've emailed this to a few Army email addresses, including the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Installations and Environment:



To Whom It May Concern:

Sir, I'm a local, DC area cannon enthusiast and amateur historian. I've enjoyed being near the fine collection of historic artillery at Ft. McNair.  However, during a routine visit recently I noticed the severe deterioration that's impacted the exposed bronze cannons since I first photographed them in May 1983.  Some of the cannons are so far degraded from active bronze disease that you can no longer read the important markings on them.  One of the worst cases is the battle-damaged British howitzer near the flagpole.

I have no idea what Army activity has responsibility for these cannons, but something needs to be done now.

I've been posting photographs of the cannons, and a more detailed description of the problem on the Company of Military Historians forum if you know a member who can check there.

Since I don't know who in the Army is responsible for the cannons, I'll send this note to a few different activities.

I'd offer to meet with a representative of the responsible command, on site at Ft. McNair, to point out the problems on the actual cannons, if that would help.

Sincerely,

...

Offline irishman

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2008, 06:31:51 AM »
Nice job cannonmn!

     I'm sure there have been many change in commands since 1983. Perhaps each not noticing much degradation over the tenure of their command.

     You may have saved the "lives" of a few important artifacts of our history.

                                                        Michael

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008, 07:07:08 AM »
Here are three slideshows I put together so far to make the point.  All the weapons, and many more, are at Ft. McNair.  The Asst. Sec. of the Army has sent my email to the garrison commander at Ft. McNair, so we'll see if anything comes of it:


Bronze-diseased Spanish rifle:
http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums%2014/?action=view&current=cebd3cae.pbw

Bronze-diseased British howitzer:
http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums%2014/?action=view&current=da383123.pbw

French bronze 4-pounders cast in 1756, painted black, excellent condition:
http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums%2014/?action=view&current=6adcd67a.pbw

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2008, 08:50:35 AM »
Hopefully they won't just send a detachment of privates out there with wire brushes to clean them.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline dan610324

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2008, 09:40:42 AM »
hi John

please tell them when and if you meet them that the Swedish army museum in Stockholm have had all their guns under serious observation for an very long time to see whats happening and what to do against the bronze diseases .

if you need help to get info , just let me know .
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline dan610324

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2008, 09:49:57 AM »
sorry forgot to tell you that its also an university somewhere in florida who had serious tests about bronze diseases and how to treat them with best result .

sorry canmt remember the name of uni , but it had something to do with marine archeology
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2008, 10:53:00 AM »
Thanks Dan.  I haven't  had much luck making suggestions to the US military either while I was in it or afterward, but hopefully they will listen this time.  Or else we will do it the underhanded way, using the media.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2008, 12:23:30 PM »
media is often the best way
they can kick where it hurts the most .
top military positions are also politicaly sensitive .

hope you can have them listening this time , its very important .
SOON IT CAN BE TO LATE
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2008, 05:26:43 PM »
 Cannonmn, the man who is responsible for all of the Army's historical property, including all the historic artillery that has been entrusted to the Army's care, is Dr. Jeffrey J. Clarke, the Army's Chief of Military History. He would have the authority that makes the ultimate decisions on the conservation, placement and relocation of these artifacts, and you'll never guess where he's based out of; that's right, Fort McNair in Washington. This information was valid on June 3, 2007; hopefully it still is. I wish you good luck in getting something done about these neglected historic treasures.
 
Dr. Clarke's e-mail: ClarkJJ@hqda.army.mil
   
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2008, 11:43:04 PM »
Thanks, that should help, having a name.   I did send an email to his outfit, but you have to to through the Asst. Secretary of Army for Administration who is their parent command I guess.  If they pass it on, that'll be good.

I've put a few more slideshows of their various cannons on the Company of Military Historians forum if anyone is intersted.  One concerns a heavy British 12-pounder captured at Stony Point, and the other is a Keller-made French 24 pounder dated 1693, a phenomenal piece.  Both these are painted gold, go figure, but it does give them some protection.  These are the two monsters that greet everyone coming to the National War College.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2008, 11:45:03 AM »
   Dear Dr. Clarke,
 
I'm a member of an internet forum named  The Black Powder Mortar and Cannon Forum and we're simply a group of people that enjoy sharing our passion for discussing, collecting, building, reenacting with and reproducing in miniature, antique ordnance of all types and national origins as long as they were manufactured before the twentieth century or are modern reproductions of this time period.
 
One of our members is a resident of Washington, D.C. and he recently visited Fort McNair after not having been there in quite some time. He was appalled at the condition of many of these irreplaceable national treasures and he took a number of photgraghs to show us on the forum. None of us are experts in this field of conservation and the only thing we know about bronze disease we gleaned from the internet but we do know that with some proper care the deterioration of these cannons can be stopped. We were also wondering if the painting of the surfaces of some of these bronze guns in a black coating is an interim procedure until the time that there is enough funding for conservators to do a proper job.
 
Just from some of the articles I've read concerning your vast responsibilities I can imagine the headaches you must face every day at work. It may well be that because of budget cuts your department simply doesn't have the available funds to properly care for these artifacts even though you would dearly love to do so. Sir, I realize your time must be in great demand but if you could find the time to respond to some of my questions and concerns I would greatly appreciate your effort. Thank You.
 
                                                                                                                                                  Sincerely,
                                                                                                                                                   ___________
I sent this to Dr. Clarke today and attached Cannonmn's photos (hope you don't mind), we'll see if we get a response. The e-mail subject title was: Deterioration of Historic Bronze Cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington, D.C.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2008, 03:47:00 PM »
Sounds good, hopefully that will get his attention.  The asst. sec. of the army sent my email on to the Ft. McNair garrison commander but no response after about a week. 

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2008, 01:53:08 PM »
From:"Clarke, Jeffrey J Dr SES CMH" <JEFFREY.J.CLARKE@US.ARMY.MIL>
[Add to Address Book]

To:
Subject:RE: Deterioration of Historic Bronze Cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington, D.C.
Date:Monday, July 28, 2008 9:34:15 AM



Sir:  Thanks for your concern.  The deterioration of macro-artifacts out
in the open is indeed a major concern throughout the system as are
traditionally severe budgetary restrictions that affect us all.  That
said, I have asked one of our central curators to reply next week on the
specific issue of the McNair pieces.  Dr. C 

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2008, 03:44:16 PM »
Cool, you got some attention.  I still haven't gotten any response, but having someone in the chain say they'll at least look into it is encouraging.  If the board members aren't familiar with what an "SES" like Dr. Clark is, that means he's in a paygrade equivalent to flag/general officers in the military, but he is a civilian.  "SES" means "Senior Executive Service."

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2008, 05:42:39 AM »
Regarding the bronze guns in the Washington Navy Yard, I called the Navy Department again and learned that the bronze cannons in the Washington Navy Yard's Leutze Park are thought to belong to either the Naval District Washington, or to the Naval Historical Center, two completely different organizations who work for different bosses. The former has contacted the latter to make a determination by retrieving any documentation applicable to the physical custody of the material.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2008, 01:46:09 PM »
   Cannonmn, as it was described to me, the guns are under the stewardship of the Deprtment of the Navy - Naval Historical Center in the name and representation of us all. I was tempted to tell the man that in that case I would be on my way to the Washington Navy Yard posthaste, to collect one of my Venetian 5.75'' howitzers because I'd really love to peruse it up close and at my leisure but I just didn't have the stones.

I talked to Mr. Kim Nielsen, who is the Director of the U.S. Navy Museum in D.C. and he was an extremely gracious gentleman, I seriously think that if I had wanted to talk for an hour and a half he would have done so. Anyway, let me preface this by saying Mr. Nielsen is the head of the museum he is not a conservator or a bronze specialist although he has had classes in both these fields. His opinion (and the opinion of the museum's curator) is that the surface condition of these guns is not what should properly be called bronze disease. He's of the opinion that the guns conditions are what he called natural bronze oxidation albeit oxidation combined with and aggravated by the air pollution and acidic rain that are present in any urban environment. He referred to the surface of the barrels as a patina and he further stated (and this was news to me) that scientific research in this area has not reached any final conclusions, that there is a train of thought that this patina should not be altered in any way because it might actually be acting like a protective barrier preventing any deeper corrosion of the metal. This last part of the preceding sentence was in response to my mentioning the Spanish guns at the Presidio, his comment on this was that protective wax coatings may be put on these guns for specific reasons, like to protect them from sea salt in the air.

The museum has a Dahlgren bronze boat howitzer that was kept outside, now being studied by conservators to try and answer some of these very questions raised by Mr. Nielsen. Some years back, one of the bronze guns from Leutze Park was also removed to a lab to be studied and then treated, you can read the steps they took on this Spanish 12 PDR named El Alano at the site below.
http://www.history.navy.mil/cannons/cannons57.htm
If you read this article you'll find that some of the things that are stated seem to contradict some of the things that Mr. Nielsen proclaimed, he also told me that he doesn't think this barrel has yet to be returned to the park even though the article says it was scheduled to be returned in 2001. John, another interesting aside that was told to me is that when these tubes get the full conservation treatment they have a tendency to turn a brown color, which might explain the deep color of that barrel you commented on at the Presidio. Mr. Nielsen mentioned that a lot of people, including many conservators would prefer to keep the green patina. I'll mention one last thing that isn't very pleasant to hear; Mr. Nielsen told me there is one very simple way to stop any further deterioration and that is to get the barrels indoors in a protected environment, unfortunately he also said there is no space available in any Navy museum. If the experts ever decide this should be done the cannons would all be taken to a Navy storage wharehouse in Virginia where the public would have no access to them.

I was told that the person that is directly responsible for the conservation of the bronze guns of Leutze Park is Mr. Mark Wertheimer, he is the Armory Supervisor and acting head of the Naval Historical Center's Curator Branch. The phone number is 202-433-2318.
I think you should be the one to speak to him, you saw and felt these guns with your own eyes and hands and you know more about bronze disease than I do.

PS You may find this amusing; near the very beginning of my conversation with Mr. Nielsen I of course brought up the bronze guns of LUTZ park and he didn't even laugh at me. Good luck


 
 
 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2008, 02:40:33 PM »
Thanks.  The issue of custody is being discussed and we will await the results to see how it comes out.  I know Mark W. well and we've discussed this issue, which is how the custody question came up and got referred to the Naval District Washington.  The curator branch says they belong to NDW, and vice-versa.

The "protective patina" is a good answer if the surface is a darker color and naturally shiny, there is such a stable compound that can form and will not react further.  If the metal is not shiny and smooth, that is not what is going on.  None of the guns in the Navy Yard had the "good" patina appearance.  The powdery, very light green stuff is made by bronze disease.  The people in charge of these cannons will use the "pleasing patina" argument to avoid having to take any action.  I've been pulling articles on b.d. off the web.  The "master repository" for all my findings on this is on the Company of Military Historians forum.  I just put two very detailed articles there today, one on coins and how to treat them, and a longer one on general preservation of bronze objects including cannons.

If you look at the pictures of the guns in the Navy Yard that I posted on the CMH board, there's no queston that they are seriously damaged as far as corrosion, erosion, disease, whatever you want to call it, to their outer layer of bronze which contains the priceless markings.  You cannot make out many of the markings at all now, where they perfectly clear not all that far back, when some of them were recorded on the museum's records.

I am a little sorry that some officials are rationalizing like this when the evidence is right there in front of them.

They all need to get a professional conservator in there to make a survey of the condition of the pieces and make recommendations what should be done about it.

I remember reading the article about the Spanish gun that the museum sent out to be "experimentally conserved" by a marine museum in Maryland.  That group says they bead-blasted it and coated it with wax.  That's nice but it isn't close to what the professionals recommend be done.  I've always thought it was interesting too that the group in Maryland never returned the cannon.  I guess if I worked on a borrowed cannon worth maybe $300K or so, and knew its owners didn't care if they got it back or not, I'd fur damn sure keep it too!

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2008, 04:30:40 PM »
We'll know pretty soon whether the Army and Navy are serious about this problem.  About this time of the DOD's fiscal year, the Pentagon sends out requests for "identification of deficiencies" that they can fix with "sweep up money."  I used to be part of all  this stuff.  The "sweep up money" is any funding that is going to expire on 1 October but cannot be obligated in time by the activity that has it.  The activity that wants it has to reassure the Pentagon that they can get the money "obligated" by 1 October.  If they can do that, they may get some of it.

If I was in charge of any of the museums that has these decaying bronze cannons, I'd write up a deficiency statement for funding to "conduct an assesment of condition of historic ordnance and prepare detailed plan of action" or some such.  I'd ask for $450,000. and figure if I got lucky I might get $200K.  That works out to about one average contractor person for a year, including his company's overhead and funding for half a dozen short trips.  I used to write those justifications all the time.  I was in a very different organization with a very different funding situation than the Naval Historcial Center, and I suspect they are on much more of a "fixed income" so it may not be feasible for them.

Just wanted to point out that in the DOD, nothing gets done without funding of a type that can be used for what you want to do, no matter how bad you think it needs to be done.   The funding not only has to be the correct year, it has to be the correct color of money (each service has at least 5 different colors, and each color can only be used for specified things.)

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2008, 09:01:35 PM »
Quote
The issue of custody is being discussed and we will await the results to see how it comes out.
 
   I'm guessing that in the flush of excitement you didn't spend enough time phrasing this sentence, because to be frank about it Boom J does not take direction like this very well. As a matter of fact patience is not one of Boom J's better known virtues.

In all seriousness, whatever the outcome of the Navy's juggling act concerning the choice of which department will ultimately take responsibility for the cannons welfare, I would guess that as the Head Curator of the Naval Historical Center, Mark Wertheimer will be involved in some capacity even if only as a consultant, in determining what treatment, if any, will be chosen for these artifacts. So, In the discussions you've had with him has he intimated to you that his views concerning the condition of these guns jibe with yours?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2008, 12:11:11 AM »
Quote
does not take direction like this very well. As a matter of fact patience is not one of Boom J's better known virtues.


I don't give direction to anyone, except my gun crew when they do things I don't want, or to my cats when they start tearing stuff up.   One of them has a thing for brown paper bags and any that come into the house will be small bits of paper within 24 hours.  Cardboard boxes take him a little longer.  I do tend to use "we" instead of "I" when "I" would be more correct, so you can substute "I" for "we" in that line and that may help.

I think as far as what I do from now on personally, I'll keep tabs on the situation and update this periodically, but I don't plan to put exactly what I heard from each person involved on a discussion board since I'm sure that would be counterproductive.

I haven't discussed the details of the condition of the Navy pieces with anyone in the Navy, and I know they wouldn't take my word for it anyway since I don't have the technical qualifications to assess the cannons.  All I can do is to show the areas of obvious damage using photos, which is pretty indisputable.   The top layer of bronze, 1/32 to maybe in some cases 1/16 inch on their cannons, which contains the engraved markings, has departed via some process since they got the cannons.   It looks to my uneducated eye that this process is ongoing and will erase what's left of those markings in another few decades.  Anyone in the Navy or elsewhere who wants to say that's just a "pleasing patina" is full of s__t frankly and if they are in the line of responsibility for allowing continued destruction, they should be held accountable.  Not doing something that obviously needs to be done to protect endangered property is "negligence."

If you add up the value of the cannons in that park, even using a low estimate (in my opinion) a few are worth over $2 million each and a few are worth a mere $150K, maybe $500K would be a fair "average" value "on the market" anyway the lot is easily worth at least $10 million for the "low estimate" if you were able to sell them at an auction.   Most of the cannons are so rare and historic that there is no auction precedent, so I'm guessing the "high" estimate would be at least several 10's of millions.  Many of these cannons are National war trophies though, and how can you put a price on that kind of history?  You really can't. 

This is a long way from back in the 1960's when the National Park Service put $2000. each on all of their property records as the value of each of their bronze cannons.  A single bronze 12-pounder Napoleon tube might bring $100K at auction today, and they are not even particularly rare.  A nice Confederate bronze tube in very good condition might go for $200K or more.  I could be way low here, firearms auction prices have been setting new records each auction season for the past few years,  some models of the much more common early Colts and Winchesters in excellent condition are regularly selling in the 6-figure range now. 

The bottom line is that we who are alive now are only temporary caretakers of these historic objects.  We owe it to the heroes who captured them, as well as to future generations to do a much better job of caring for them than we are doing now.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2008, 07:13:58 AM »
The US Naval Academy also has a fine collection of bronze guns, and they suffer from degradation from environmental exposure just like those at Ft. McNair and the Washington Navy Yard.  I've contacted them and they seem interested in doing something if funding can be identified.  I have a little more influence there since I'm a graduate and I've been in contact with the people at the museum off and on since about 1970.  Their collecton of bronze guns is probably comparable in numbers to that of the Navy Yard, but the USNA cannons are on average much larger, older, and fancier.  The "fancy" part is part of why those particular cannons were selected for the Naval Academy.  The Washington Navy Yard guns are quite a mixture, but many of them are the simplified, functional Gribeauval design which eliminated most of the nonfunctional decoration.

The Naval Academy has an advantage in that many activities there, particularly anything related to sports, are largely supported by a myriad of private associations, funds, grants, etc. which in turn are largely funded by alumni who have done well financially.  One such "legacy grant" of over $7M is now funding the refurbishment of the Naval Academy Museum.

I'm thinking if I can spread the word about the need for conservation of the fine collection of bronze cannons there, one of those foundations might help out. 

I think the United States Military Academy is in much the same situation, but I don't have any close contacts there, so it would be an uphill battle.   I'm not going to start there until I find an "insider" who is interested. 

If anyone has any information on what it costs to professionally conserve say a 12-pounder and a 24-pounder bronze 18thC. cannon, with all the chemical treatments etc., please let me know as I'm trying to add up the bill to give potential sponsors an idea of the potential cost.  A significant part of the treatment of a 24 pounder would be rigging and transportation, since they weigh over 5000 lbs. each.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2008, 04:01:38 AM »
Regarding the issue of the physical (and maintenance) custody of the cannons at the Washington Navy Yard: 

I followed up on this issue today and found that the Navy is working on it at what seems (to this outsider) to be the appropriate level, between the Deputy Director of the Naval Historical Center, and his counterpart at the Naval District Washington.  After responsibility is determined, I should have a point of contact who can speak for the Navy on the issue of the condition of the bronze cannons and any plans for studies or conservation.

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2008, 07:01:21 AM »
It's an interesting role in life you're playing, John, to instigate change for the better in an existing governmental institution.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2008, 09:21:07 AM »
Thanks.  At this point, even though I'm an ex-Navy guy (34 years' worth) I'm a bit disappointed in the Navy's response on this, where the office we'd think was in charge of the cannons points me to another office, which in turn denies responsibility.  I thnk maybe, just maybe, that's called "the runaround."

The Army did a much better job so far.  Dr. Clarke didn't send me to another office, or try and hide behind the bureaucracy, he wrote back right away and assigned someone to look into it.  That's probably a good indication about which service will wind up doing something about it.

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2008, 12:27:19 PM »
Re: Bronze disease and the neglect of historic artifacts...

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
- Pogo Possum, 1971

Offline cannonmn

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French 4-pounder "Kimi" before, and after 25 years, Fort McNair DC
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2008, 04:29:42 AM »
Here's a photo of the gun taken recently with Ed in the background:



Now for some "before" and "after:"


I took the top photo of the French 4-pounder gun named "Kimi" in May 1983, and the bottom photo of the same gun in July 2008.  You can see some changes.  I don't know if the colors are reliable or not, as color film was used for the top photo, which was just scanned, and the bottom photo was always digital.  I didn't alter the images except to crop them to show the area of interest.  If the colors are accurate, a bright blue-green color isn't a good sign.  Note how the three fleur de lis in the center shield have been almost completely eaten away.  The details of the crown are disappearing.  The sun's rays, which were fully intact before, are becoming interrupted by pits in the bronze.  The surface had a smooth shiny patina in '83, and now has a dull somewhat rough surface.  The basering inscription is fading.  The coat of arms overall is becoming pitted and etched.  Rain running down the vent has enlarged it, apparently.  This historic cannon was (July '08) mounted only a few feet from the roadway, just waiting for some momentarily distracted driver to veer off and hit it.

These bronze "short 4-pounders" were purchased from France during the Revolutionary War and apparently became a vital part of  George Washington's field artillery.  I think they should get a little more respect and should be taken inside somewhere out of the elements, or conserved and given a long-lasting protective coating.

At least the Army didn't totally neglect this weapon during those 25 years, they replaced the old concrete sign mounting with a nice new granite one.  The grass around the cannon is also in much better shape than it was in 1983.  However, I think someone should be held accountable if something isn't done to at least prevent further damage to the cannons, now that the proper officials have been informed by at least two different people.

When you talk to government officials about this problem, one of the first things they say is that they don't have enough money to take care of the cannons.  If you then inquire whether they requested money for that purpose in their annual budget submissions, they won't say anything even though the answer is probably "no."











Offline cannonmn

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Army response letter
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2008, 10:29:34 AM »
Here's the letter I just received from the Army.  I had told them their cannons at Ft. McNair had bronze disease (that's what I thought was going on a couple of weeks ago.)  They have responded with an explanation of bronze disease and that thier cannons don't have it, they only have a patina. 

Now that I'm smarter, I'd agree, the cannons probably don't have bronze disease, but they are, how shall I put this, being degraded over time while they are stored outside.  The bronze is being eaten away by something, the photos I posted above prove it.  Maybe I should call it "chronological corrosion" since the one thing my photos prove is that the corrosion is a function of time.  My experience tells me that when you move a bronze cannon inside out of the sun and rain, the chronological corrosion ceases. 

The letter says they have done some good things, such as bringing six cannons inside at Rock Island Arsenal.  Sorry the scanned letter may be hard to read, I think this site shrinks them a bit, so you may have to use a magnifier or zoom feature to read it.

Or you can go to these links and it should be larger:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums18/Army080807a.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums18/Army080807b.jpg








Offline cannonmn

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Patina or pathetic, what do you think?
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2008, 05:08:45 AM »
The Army regards the corrosion on their bronze cannons as a patina, which in the antiques world, is a good thing.  In my opinion, there's a fairly clear difference between a pleasing patina and destructive corrosion.

Here's a good example of one of the pieces at Fort McNair.  The piece shown is a Spanish 4-pounder bronze field gun of the Gribeauval system, as copied from France by Spain.  The gun was cast in Spain in 1784, and was rifled by Spain around 1862, in the style of the Beulieu system, to fire conical projectiles with studs which engaged the six grooves in the bore.  I first saw this gun in May 1983, and took one photo of it.   You can see that the gun was basically black, indicating an old patina.  However the gun had begun to corrode and lose metal on top, as indicated by the bright green area all along the top of the barrel.



Here are some pictures of the same gun taken in July 2008.  The corrosion has covered almost the entire gun and has removed a relatively thick layer of bronze, which is the metal that contained the beautiful engraving work depicting the gun's name, the arms of King Carlos IV, and the basering markings which contain the date and place of casting, as well as the foundry's heat number.





Now let's do a top-and-bottom comparison.  The top photo shows the Royal arms on the breech of the gun at Ft. McNair in July 2008.    The engraving on the top one as you can see is pretty much gone, very much reduced in depth, and no longer shiny.  The white substance in the engraved lines is tin or stannous oxide which remains after the copper compounds released by the corrosion have run off in the rain.

The botton photo shows the same royal arms, engraved on the same exact model of Spanish gun, except that gun has been kept indoors since approximately 1960.  The gun is thought to have come to the US right after the Spanish-American War, as did the Ft. McNair piece.  This gun, which does have an attractive patina, is named "Gorro,"also a rifled Spanish 4-pounder gun, but cast in Barcelona in 1796. 





Offline cannonmn

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2008, 06:32:23 AM »
Here's all that's left of the important engraved markings on the basering fo the Ft. McNair gun (first 2 pictures, blue-green corrosion.)  These marks tell where the gun was cast and the month, day, and year of castiing, plus the foundry heat number.  In another 10 or 20 years, there won't be anything left of those markings. 

Compare the top 2 pictures of the basering marks on Ft. McNair gun with the last picture, showing the basering marks of "Gorro," the gun that was moved inside about 50 years ago (this gun has a brown and green patina.)  It is easy to see how the engraved markings are still very deep, sharp, and legible.






Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Destruction of historic cannons at Ft. McNair, Washington DC
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2008, 08:49:07 AM »
Aside from the issue of the topic -

Could you take a 'rubbing' to retrieve the info?

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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