What happens to 0.45" jacketed bullets at too high velocity?

[sasu]

Would anyone have experiences driving jacketed pistol bullets to velocities higher than recommended by the manufacturer?

I am about to begin handloading for a 16" barreled Legacy 92 454 Casull carbine. Because of local hunting legislation I need to achieve 1850 fps with a 300 gr bullet. Unfortunately Sierra says 1500 fps is tops for their JSP bullet, Hornady sets their limit at 1650 fps.

What will happen to those bullets when driven past the recommended velocity? Do they start disintegrating in mid flight? Could they disintegrate before even exiting the barrel? Or is the velocity recommendation given because of terminal effect, i.e. when hitting a game animal? Or is the speed limit set on account of revolver forcing cone issues and would thus have no relevance in a rifle barrel?

Barnes 275 gr XPB does not have a speed limit, or at least it is loaded up to 2000 fps in their 460 S&W load data; but I am afraid this Barnes bullet is too long to work in the lever action carbine. What other 300 gr 0.451"-0.454" bullets are there that can be driven to velocities close to 2000 fps?

I believe hard cast bullets should be safe at those velocities, and luckily they are legal for hunting big game, but I would like to find a suitable jacketed or copper bullet, too.

Thank you for any information.

[Luckyducker]

I have no experience with either of these bullets but am inclined to think the listed velocity limits are due to explosive expansion at higher speeds.  I don't believe any jacketed bullet would distintigrate  until well past 3000 ft/sec.

[Paladin]

300 grain XTP mag I believe will work for you. good luck

[LaOtto222]

A bullet will blow up in mid air when the rotational forces are too great. This is caused by spinning the bullet too fast. I do not know what your twist is on your carbine, but it probably is not much faster than 1 - 20". I seriously doubt if it will literally spin a bullet apart. I think the manufacturers set their limits for the bullet construction so it does not blow up on the surface of the animal. Pistol bullets are made for pistol velocities. If you shoot them in your 454 Casull, you would probably have good luck with them at 100 yards or more. Get too close and they will blow a big patch on the surface, but do little internal damage. If I were you and trying to stay with-in the law I would try the 300 grain Hornady and 300 grain Speer GDHP. I would load them up to the recommended loads for the 7 1/2" barrel. You should be able to achieve your goal of 1850 fps with a 16" carbine barrel with those loads. I then would test fire them into wet news print or something suitable at different ranges to find out exactly how these bullets perform. You will find out quickly what they will do and what they will not do. I would think you would want at least 12" penetration to be sure they will reach vitals, even if they hit bone. If they fail your tests, then I would think your only other option is gas checked cast bullets. Good Luck and Good Shooting.

[sasu]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

I ordered some 300 XTPs, I will start my experiments with those. The Nosler 300 gr Partition might work well, too, I suppose.

[corbanzo]

Look at cast bullets.  I have driven cast bullets up to 1800fps in my .454, and nothing bad seemed to have happened. 

[sasu]

I will definitely develop cast bullet loads, too. I load cast bullets for most of my guns, from 0.30" to 0.50" caliber.

[BIG Dog454]

I've done it!  using 250 gr xtp and they hit the target just fine, but not accurately, at 1900 fps from my ruger srh.  The problem arises when they hit the deer!  They tend to blow up! Causing a lot of meat damage even at 1400fps if you don't hit them in a low meat area such as the ribs, or head.  Shot one at close range 25 yard and the bullet blew a hole the size of a soft ball on entry, this was at 1400fps. at 1200 fps and 75 yards a neck shot disintigrated and it looked like the deer was shot with a shot gunand #4 shot at about 10 feet.  The XTP mag is a different story, they are designed for the higher speeds and hold together better, but I don't know about shooting a deer at 1850 fps+ with one.  A lead bullet holds together much better then the reg XTP at 1250 fps  a 250 gr bullet does a lot of lung and liver damage and still passes thru. These are my experience, I would reccomend either a hard cast (wheel weight etc) or xtp mag bullets.

[buck460XVR]

300 grain XTP mag I believe will work for you. good luck

+1.......Hornady makes 2 300grainer XTP's with one designed for Magnum velocities. It has a smaller and shallower HP and is designed not to expand as quickly as their regular 300 grn. XTP. I use both the 300 XTP Mag and the 240 XTP Mag in my 460 and they work well. I still use the regular 250 and 300 grn. XTPs for target loads cause of the cost difference.

[Graybeard]

The Hornady 250 XTP is designed for the more sedate velocity of the standard .45 Colt not for the .454 Casull. You should expect it to act like a varmint bullet at Casull velocity. Their 240XTP is the Magnum light weight designed for the Casull.

I think you're making a mistake to use ANY JHP at the velocities mentioned in the OP. The Sierra 300 JSP is a good hard bullet. I've pushed it to about 1700 fps and found it barely expands at all at that velocity on deer size game. If I wanted to push a 300 JSP fast it's the one I'd use. Or if you could get your hands on some of the 260 or 300 grain bullets Freedom Arms used to sell they would be even better.

[sasu]

I got a response from Sierra regarding their 300 JSP bullet. The velocity, or actually pressure limit is set because of forcing cone issues in a revolver, so the bullet should be safe to launch at higher velocities from a rifle.

[LaOtto222]

Another possibility is the Swift A frame bullet. Here is a link

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0019245325

They are not cheap, but premium bullets rarely are.

[sasu]

I ordered a couple of boxes of Swift A-frames, too, 265 gr and 300 gr.

I did some load testing today. I did not set up for firing groups, I only measured velocities.

Hornady factory load 300 gr @ 1960 fps.
Magtech factory load 260 gr @ 2110 fps.
Handload Sierra 300 gr @ 1850 fps and no pressure signs yet.
Handload LaserCast 300 gr @ 1900 fps and no pressure signs yet.

It seems I will definitely get the 300 gr @ 1850 fps required for moose in my country. The next problem is to find a bullet tough enough to be used at these velocities.

Here is the launching device. Sweet...

[Graybeard]

If the bullet left the barrel that's a EXCELLENT and POSITIVE sign of pressure. If you think you're gonna be able to tell when pressure is excessive you're kidding yourself.

[sasu]

If you think you're gonna be able to tell when pressure is excessive you're kidding yourself.

Yes, I know. I mike the fired cases at the base of the case, but I know even this is no proof the gun really likes the load. With the loads are tried I am still below published loads.

Thank you for reminding that home reloaders are actually groping in the dark.

[stimpylu32]

If you think you're gonna be able to tell when pressure is excessive you're kidding yourself.

Yes, I know. I mike the fired cases at the base of the case, but I know even this is no proof the gun really likes the load. With the loads are tried I am still below published loads.

Thank you for reminding that home reloaders are actually groping in the dark.

Unfortunatly buddy thats exactly what we are doing , every load we make is , parden the pun - A shot in the dark as we do not have the same test chamber that was used to gain the data or the brass , powder , bullet lot or primers - so every round we load is diffrent from what they used to get their numbers , granted the diffrence may be small in most cases but there is still that outside chance that we are way off base line .

I for one don't even want to think about hunting deer draging a bench mounted test gun into the field . 

stimpy

[SharonAnne]

what agency specifies a bullet wt and velocity for hunting ammunition? I have heard of caliber limits and energy but never one specifying velocity and wt.

[superhornet]

When I first read this forum and the question, I had my doubts about being able to drive the bullet at 1850 fps. I ran some data into my UNIVAC and found that at about 1847.5 fps the velocity will tear a hole in the time contingency and the positronic network will begin to fold back on itself.  I got scared and stopped the testing....

[sasu]

Our national hunting legislation specifies energy minimums (foot-pounds) for all game animals. For larger animals there are two energy levels, one for lighter bullets, one for heavier bullets. I would prefer a 300-400 gr bullet at moderate velocity, but the all-knowing legislators make that impossible so I have to drive the bullets to silly velocities.

[SharonAnne]

what nation is that?

[Lone Star]

The 300-grain Sierra is THE toughest bullet they make in any caliber, rifle or handgun.  It is probably the best choice for your project. 

.

[gypsyman]

I'm kinda curious as what state you live in also. To be that specif on loads. How could they tell, unless they actually tore apart all your ammo. I now in PA. in years past, during muzzleloader season, game wardens where known to pull a bullet from your gun, to make sure you were using round ball, not a maxi. Maybe that restriction has changed, been almost 20 years since I hunted PA.  I think I would be more prone to using a hard cast bullet. And it's a well known fact, at 1300fps., a hard bullet will go almost the entire lenght of a black bear, I wouldn't think you would have much problem with a moose.  gypsyman

[sasu]

Finland, Europe.

I do not know how the authorities would check the actual energy level, but penalties would be severe. But then again, just a couple of decades ago we could hunt big game only with factory ammo, fortunately handloads have been legal for a while now.

I would prefer a moderate speed, 1500 fps -ish, for a 0.452" 300 grain bullet for better penetration, but the law is written for 155 grain bullets. I get a headache from this kind of bureaucracy.

[SharonAnne]

ah yes, Soumi. I understand you must pass an accuracy test on a moving target at 200 meters to qualify for an Elk ( North American Moose) hunting license.

[sasu]

I understand you must pass an accuracy test on a moving target at 200 meters to qualify for an Elk ( North American Moose) hunting license.

The test was changed to a supported four shot string at a stationary 75 meter target a few years ago, so no moving targets any more. The hits have to be in a 7"-9" circle depending on the game animal you are testing for, so no real pressure there. Most people call the new test "a verification of sight settings".

[SharonAnne]

My uncle would go for that. He failed the moving target test about 10 yrs ago.

[sasu]

Now I have acquired or ordered the following bullets for testing:

Sierra 300 gr JSP
Speer 300 gr JSP
Swift 260 gr A-Frame
Swift 300 gr A-Frame
Hornady XTP-MAG 300 gr

Sierra told me their JSP should survive an impact at those velocities (1850 fps) and I got a similar reply from Swift.

I couple of weeks ago I found an article on the 'net where someone had tested 454 Casull bullets for penetration at revolver velocities. Most of them penetrated only 10" because they expanded to a huge diameter. Some bullets practically disintegrated. Unfortunately I did not bookmark that article.

I will test all these bullets into wet newspaper at rifle velocity and see how far they penetrate. If all these bullets fail to penetrate properly for moose hunting, I will have to try hard cast bullets. Or use my 45-70 Guide Gun, or 35 Whelen, or...

[witkov]

sasu,

Your test of .452 bullets seems very interesting.  Please keep us updated when you get results.

I have gone through 200 of the Speer 300 gr JSP at over 2000 fps from a 11.4 X 74R. They have been very accurate.  I can hold consistent  2"-5 shot groups at 100 yards. I haven't shot any thing but paper so can't comment on how they hold together on impact.   I wouldn't hesitate to use them on a deer.  Given a choice I would probably use a heavier hard cast lead for moose.

To answer your original question about high speed bullet disintigration; when I was working up loads using bulk .451 185gr JHP I had the following experience.  At 2450 fps they were giving 5 shot groups into 2" at 50 yards with nice round holes.  At 2550 fps, 3 out of the 10 shots were flyers with ragged keyholes with separate little impacts from jackets all over the target. I did not attempt to go any higher on velocity.  At 2450 fps this combination is cheap, accurate and spectacular on water filled milk jugs.   Probably way too light for deer.

Regards,
Mike