Are bullets getting too tuff ?

[Country Boy]

 The bear turned broadside as I coached a new hunter through to the shot, he was carrying a 300 win. mag with premium 200 grn bullets After the 25 yard shot the bear took off !  He wasnt found untill too late to save it. the bullet just punched .30 cal holes through the bear. I've seen the same thing with 7mm mags and .30-06 With so called premium bullets Many other guides have mentioned the same thing to me.
   Are hunters using too good bullets. My plain old .250 .358 Speer Hotcores drop them right at the bait barrel .

[Badnews Bob]

.300 win mag at 25 yards! That bullit wasn't to tough it was moving to fast. That bullet didn't have time to expand. IMO a .45-70 would have been a much better choice at that range.

[flintlock]

.300 win mag at 25 yards! That bullit wasn't to tough it was moving to fast. That bullet didn't have time to expand. IMO a .45-70 would have been a much better choice at that range.

I hope you don't believe this old wives tale...It just isn't so...The faster a bullet is moving when it hits the animal, the faster it expands, period...If it hits solid bone, this will increase expansion, but there is no way that a bullet, arrow, round ball, etc "moves so fast that it doesn't have time to expand"...Pure BS plain and simple...I've heard this for over 40 years with all the projectiles mentioned above...

Just wanted to set the record straight...

[stimpylu32]

I think its more a case of using the wrong bullet and not a case of a TOO GOOD bullet , just because it says its a Premium bullet does not mean that its the proper bullet for the game being hunted .

A hunter must learn what type bullets will work best for the type game they plan to hunt , you would not want a 500 grain Copper Solid to shoot deer or other thin skinned animal and on the same note you would not want to go after Dangerous game with a 55 grain Varmint bullet either .

I realize that these are extream examples but they do help to make the point ,

stimpy

[kevthebassman]

Sounds like he was using a bullet designed for deep penetration when deep penetration should have taken a back seat to terminal effect.  I think you could do just as well on black bear over bait with a 30-30 and Remington Corelokt factory fodder.  Probably better from the sound of it.

[MnMike]

I think that some hunters get caught up in the idea of using high tech bullets from magazine articles. Many of the articles are talking about elk, brown and grizzlys, and moose. These animals do require some penitration.

Most people hunt deer or black bear. They are rather thin skinned critters.

I have used Sierra 30-06 165s for years. They expand and kill (in my small experience) from 30 to 225 yards. I have never lost a deer. I have had arguements with others saying that they are too fragile. I say when they create a wound that makes a 2" exit hole and sprays guts for 10 yards, that they are a humane killer.

JMHO

mike

[BBF]

 What flintlock said !!

In addition, the 7mm Rem Mag and similar rounds weren't designed for  hand to hand combat range

In that bear hunting situation with a 300 Win Mag I would have loaded the 220gr. Hornady bullet for 23-2500 fps and the  Hornady 175 gr RN at 2600fps  if I had no other cartridges to use.

[beemanbeme]

I agree with Flintlock but I do believe that they have made bullets so hard trying to keep them together at the boyhowdylookwhaticando velocities that folks want to drive them at that they don't function well at close (high velocity) range or on light game.  My only example is the Speer Grand Slam --the old double core kind.  When my menu included antelope, mulies, and elk, I'd take one rifle with one load and one type bullet.  For elk.  When I'd shoot my antelope, I had to make extra sure that my bullet was gonna get heart, not just shoot for the big middle.  And even on a mulie, if the bullet slipped between some ribs, the wound channel wouldn't be that impressive nor the exit hole that big. 
I surely think if a hunter does his homework, buying the bullet with the gawdiest spread in the magazine or the highest price on the box ain't doing himself any favors.  Often a common old Hot Core, or Core Lokt, or such is the straight road to salvation.

45-70 said it first, but folks seem to forget that the RN bullet is one fine choice inside of say 250 yards. Check your books. 
 

[corbanzo]

I shoot reel expensive premium bullets.  The expand and retain their weight.  I bought them, tested them, and now use them to hunt (barnes tipped tsx by the way)  Don't have any problem killin stuff.

That is in the .-06 of course.  I used cast bullets for my hunting loads in the .458 lott, because... well, if I can't kill it with 405 grains of lead going 2500fps, then it ain't gettin killed. 

[dakotashooter2]

There still are some questions as to "how accurate" some of the claims that are made by the advertizers are. Consider this... A 300 win mag is generally seen as an extended range cartridge. In other words most hunters purchasing one don't intend to use it on game at 30-50 yards. All bullets have a performance range. Those velocities on both ends of the spectrum at which they perfom best. While some great advancements have been made we still don't have bullets that will give optimum performance across the entire velocity range of a cartridge. If the ammo makers feel most hunters are going to shoot a particular game at 300 yards (example for the 300 win mag) they are going to design their bullets to work best at probably 150-450 yards and market it for the game that will likely be taken at that range. The guys will buy the ammo on the makers reccomendation however the makers don't have such information available to the public so when the guy uses the ammo at a range outside of the parameters he may see sub standard performance.

In the case stated the hunter probably did use the wrong bullet. Part of the problem may be that he was lead to believe he had the right bullet.

[beemanbeme]

Gawdy magazine ads, paid shills.  Nothing beats hands on testing. Or test results from someone you can trust.  Either a knowledgeable friend or a writer.  Aagaard comes to mind.  When he tested a bullet, he TESTED a bullet.  And he took you along with him every step of the way.  And when he made his summation, it was in a manner that you could understand.  And it was pure gold.  he wasn't for sale to the highest bidder nor was he one of the "this stuff cost more so's its got to be better" guys. Too often that's the only yardstick folks use.  And it's a poor one.
I've only shot 1 head of BG beyond 300 yards and if I remember correctly, that was with either a core lokt bullet or a NP. So I have no interest in a bullet designed to kill something at 450 yards. IMO, all bullet ads should carry the header: PLEASE DON'T SHOOT AT ANIMALS BEYOND 300 YARDS MAX, AS NOT ONE HUNTER IN 10,000 ARE CAPABLE OF CONSISTANTLY MAKING A SHOT OF THAT SORT.  HAVE A LITTLE RESPECT, WHATA YOU SAY.
I think a more reasonable performance window would be 100-200 yards.  And with a properly sighted in rifle, this should give you a "dead in" aim of 50 to around 250 or 275 yards. We know from my example of one that a 150gr core lokt or NP from a .280 will kill an antelope (and I'm sure a WT) at 380 long steps. So where you'd need the magic bullet is if you need a light for calibre bullet to drive at warp speed to try and compensate for inability to gauge distance or figure trajectory.  In which case, I can't help you.  I'm from the old school, if you're driving a hunting bullet over 3000fps, you need more weight not more speed. 

[hoggunner]

I still think it all about shot placement. O.k. I will use my hand gun for example, if I am using a 3oo gr hard cast for pigs and a deer shows up I would want to make sure that I hit the shoulder bone of that deer to drop it right in its tracks. on the other hand if I was shooting a softer bullet for deer and a pig showed up I would want to make sure I didnt hit any big bone but try to slip it in the boiler room to take out the heart or lungs. there is no magic bullet that will do it all but if you put em where they belong you will find more game.
Hoggunner

[BBF]

Being one of the OF's here I had the use of the early Nosler Partitions as well as the newer to new style. All in all they pretty much handle the broad range of velocity and range. They aren't perfect but certainly come as close as a person needs.

[Siskiyou]

The majority of my kills have been with standard bullets over the last fifty years, you might say .99%.  The exception being Nosler Partitions in the 6.5x55 and the .300 Savage.  I think Nosler got it right.  The knock down effect with the Nosler PT on deer is instantaneous

Post mortem examination of the wound from entry to exit makes me believe that the front part of the Nosler PT opens very rapidly, imparting tremendous energy to the animal.  The rear section of the bullet continues to penetrate the animal exiting on the far side, or recovered under the hide, taking into consideration the angle of the shot into the target.

I have asked myself, would I have taken the same animal with a none premium hunting bullet?  The answer has always been the same, yes; given the same shot placement the animal would have been mine.  I have taken the poorman's route to obtain good penetration on deer.  In the .308 calibers instead of a 150-grain bullet I use a 165-grain bullet, in the .270 instead of the 130-grain I have stepped up to the 140 and 150-grain bullets. 

Do the current bonded bullets tempt me?  Yes, but I do not have a true need for them.  Well I buy some?  Just might!

[SharonAnne]

i noted that there was reference to "HOLES" in the bear but nothing about WHERE the bullets struck. Also, there was no mention of the muzzle velocity these "premium" bullets were loaded to. Just 'cuz it was coming out of a 300winmag does not mean it was at winmag speed. While I handed loaded my 06 it was for accuracy not velocity. I got 2700fps (chronographed!) with Sierra 165gr BTHP GameKing bullets. The only one I recovered hit a buck in the front of the neck, traveled through 2 feet of spine and lodged under the skin on the right buttock. It shed its' jacket of course, not much would hold up after traveling through that much bone. Premium performance from a standard bullet. Too much importance is placed on magic bullets and not enough on the magic of marksmanship.

[Country Boy]

Shot with factory premiums. Don't have a clue about vel. range 25 yds perfect placement about a 1/3 up the body behind the shoulder.
  I use a .358 handloaded with .250 speers at 2350 only one bear out of 27 went 50 yds. I shot the Mb record (for a non-resident)  in 2004. Hit through both shoulders, dropped on the spot. typical of .358 performance.( bear went 512 lbs & 21 14/16) What suprised me was it was only 45 minutes North of Winnipeg.