Author Topic: .260 Ackley Improved (Read 3109 times)

Arizona Jake · « **on:** July 22, 2008, 06:58:37 PM »

I've been contemplating obtaining an extra barrel for my Tikka 595 Whitetail Hunter rifle in .260 Ackley Improved.

Does anyone out there have any experience with this cartdrige? I've read some interesting articles in the 6mm BR website and would like to know what opinions members of this forum have on this cartridge. As always, any and all info will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Joaquin B

Mikey · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2008, 02:43:39 AM »

What advantages does the 260 AI have over the 6.5 Swede?

?

Lone Star · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2008, 05:01:02 AM »

Like most all of the AI cartridgtes, expect about a 100 fps average increase in velocity over the standard case. Most reloaders who get higher velocities are using excessive pressures; load the parent case to the same pressure and see the 100 fps difference. All one has to do is to check the pressure-tested loads in the Nosler and Hornady manuals to see that most AI cartridges are not magic. A 6-7% increase in capacity means a 2-3% velocity increase.

Better than the Swede? It will fit and function in a short action, the Swede will not. I don't want to hear whining about why we don't need a short action - the reality is that hundreds of thousands of shooters choose short actions. To denegrate short actions is the same thing as denegrating one cartridge over another. My favorite to read is "we odn't need any other cartridge for NA hunting than the .30-06. My grandpaw shot everything with it!"

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Doesniper · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2008, 03:10:36 PM »

I have a 260 AI and love it. It is not a rocket ship, but it is very accurate and will move a 147g Clinch River bullet 2950 fps.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2008, 04:47:21 PM »

Quote from: Lone Star on July 23, 2008, 05:01:02 AM

I don't want to hear whining about why we don't need a short action - the reality is that hundreds of thousands of shooters choose short actions.

Which is probably why we got the cute little 260 instead of a real cartridge... the 6.5/06! These durn short action freaks screw us outa some good rounds! And don't even get me started on the 25 WSSM instead of a 25 WSM!

But short or long these companies drive me crazy!!

people want a 25/08 so they get a 25/06; they scream for a 6.5/06 so they get a 6.5/08! And speaking of names, they call the 25 cal - '06 based round the 25/06, then call the 7mm - '06 based round the 280; then the 7mm - 308 based round the 7/08 while the 6.5 cal - 308 based round is the 260!

Then there's the 338/06 and the 338 Federal and the 35Whelen and the 358 Win... Make me want ta cry...

I'm goin back to my old reliable! We really don't need any other cartridge for NA hunting than the .30-06 anyway. My daddy shot everything with it!" Durn, that sounds familiar... I musta said it before...

Mikey · « **Reply #5 on:** July 24, 2008, 01:23:32 AM »

AtlLaw: This is great. We have family here. You must be related to Lone Star, he said the same thing.......................................

MGMorden · « **Reply #6 on:** July 24, 2008, 04:08:09 AM »

While we're on the whole topic of confusing names, caliber designations confuse me too.

Why does a .223, .222, and a .225 all shoot .224" bullets?

Why does a .270 shoot .277" bullets?

.303 shoots .311" bullets.

Or why is .308" called 7.62mm when 7.62mm is really .300"? If it was accurate .308" caliber should be 7.82mm instead.

OR, and here is a REALLY odd one, why does .284" get called "7mm", when the next step down, .277", is actually slightly bigger (but danged close to) than a real 7mm measurement (.276"). .277" would have made far more sense to call "7mm" rather than .284 which is actually 7.21mm.

It's too late to change but why in the heck didn't they choose accurate numbers to being with!?!?

Lone Star · « **Reply #7 on:** July 24, 2008, 05:53:20 AM »

Quote

...people want a 25/08 so they get a 25/06; they scream for a 6.5/06 so they get a 6.5/08!

I feel your pain. But we on the Internet seem to think that what we want is what the firearms companies should make. The reality of running a business is selling, and there are a lot of less-informed shooters (read gun buyers) who don't want what we want. The .25-06 was an extremely popular wildcat before Remington adopted it in 1969. The .25-08 was virtually unknown, just as it is today among the vast majority of gun buyers. The .260 was popularized by Carmichael as a competition cartridge which got a LOT of press so it was well known - the 6.5-06 has never been particularly popular. Why build something that will only sell moderately if at all? Better to go with a well-known chambering. Unfortunately, at times this line of thinking just goes berzerk...

Quote

And speaking of names, they call the 25 cal - '06 based round the 25/06, then call the 7mm - '06 based round the 280!

The .280 Remington is NOT the 7mm-06, it has significantly different headspace dimensions. To call it a 7-06 would be a borderline crime since shooters would be almost guaranteed a head separation if a true 7-06 was fired in a .280 chamber...if it would even fire. This is not the same as the .25-06 which uses the same headspace value as the parent .30-06. For advertising purposes gun makers want to put their own name on as many cartridges as they can, hense the pelthora of custom names. In a prefect, logical world this wouldn't happen, but it has been the way of the industry for well over a century. Believe it or not, there was a .45-70 Marlin cartridge identical to the .45-70 Govt except for bullet weight....and the name of course.

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Lone Star · « **Reply #8 on:** July 24, 2008, 06:02:53 AM »

Quote

Why does a .270 shoot .277" bullets?....303 shoots .311" bullets....Or why is .308" called 7.62mm when 7.62mm is really .300"?...It's too late to change but why in the heck didn't they choose accurate numbers to being with!?!?

It makes sense if one has an historical perspective of firearms development. Prior to the adoption of rifled bores, smoothbore firearms were identified by the size of the hole bored in the barrel. When rifling became popular, the same measurement system was retained - right or wrong. Today a .270 Winchester has a .270" bore bored into the barrel and the depth of the rifling brings the required bullet diameter up to .277". Same thing with the .303 and the .308/7.62. If you want to really get confusing - why does a .44 Magnum shoot .430" bullets? Why are .38 Special bullets .357" in diameter, .38-55 bullets are .380" in diameter, and .38-40 bullets are .401" in diameter? Do a little historical research and you'll find out why....

.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2008, 06:39:20 AM »

Quote from: Lone Star on July 24, 2008, 06:02:53 AM

Do a little historical research and you'll find out why....

<sigh> Is humor dead?

Cummon LS! We make rhetorical or unreasonable statements based on half truths and baseless assumptions and what do we get in return from you!? A succinct statement of fact! You take all the fun outa being obnoxious (me) or pointing out humorous contradictions (MGM) ! I would dearly love to hear your reply if your wife or significant other should ask you "does this dress make me look fat?" It would probably be something like... "no dear, It is the extended curvature of your lower anterior and posterior areas, more then likely caused by an under metabolised intake of the nonnarcotic fruit of the coco plant and restricted by the fabric of your current garment which is not of sufficient size to contain said posterior that causes your obese appearance."

Yup, you right...

AtlLaw · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2008, 07:13:33 AM »

Quote from: Arizona Jake on July 22, 2008, 06:58:37 PM

Does anyone out there have any experience with this cartdrige? ... would like to know what opinions members of this forum have... any and all info will be greatly appreciated.

Joaquin B,
Well, I'm sorry to say I don't have any experience with the AI version. But in sportin' rifles I've got 2 - 260's and 2 - 6.5x55's. I DO like the 6.5 caliber, and if I ever felt the need for a little more umph! then that afforded by either of those I 'spect I'd have to look at an AI version. Especially since I don't care for belted mags. But I've never been all excited about any AI round either. I believe LS when he says about 100 fps. Whoop-tee-do!

However, I've always been interested in the 6.5/06 and intuitively think it would do more then a 260 AI. So if I were serious about a stepped up, performance wise, 6.5 cal round, I'd start there... Now, if you were to do the AI thing to a '06 case necked down to 6.5 you might have something! But wait! There's more!

Speaking of neck, did you ever notice how much of it there is in an '06 case!? Let's blow some of that long neck out for some REAL case capacity! Oh wait... that's the 264 Hawk isn't it? Nevermind... $:-\$

I guess the 260 AI is okay, just not much return for your money.

yooper77 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 24, 2008, 07:14:34 AM »

I enjoy Ackley Improved cartridges, not because the higher velocity, but longer case life.

I like all the differences, makes it fun.
I understand, I haven’t covered all cartridges or calibers. Each and every bore diameter can be and will be different, so please check the actual bore of your specific firearm before attempting to use the information given below. I also understand that lead bullets offer a whole other source of diameters.

22 Hornet
   Some use .223 caliber bullets and some use .224 caliber bullets.

218 Bee
   Uses .224 caliber bullets

22 High Power
   Uses .227 caliber bullets

6mm Remington (replace 244 Remington)
243 Winchester
   Both use .243 caliber bullets

30-06 Springfield
308 Winchester
30-40 Krag
303 Savage
30-30 Winchester (30 WCF)
309 JDJ, JD Jones, “Simple - someone was already using .308 and I wanted to make the .30 caliber connection as well as being distinctive.”
   These all use .308 caliber bullets.

303 British
   Uses .311 caliber bullets

32 Winchester Special
   Uses .321 caliber bullets.

8mm Mauser
8mm Mauser (J) uses .318" caliber bullets and the 8mm Mauser (JS) uses .323" caliber bullets)

8mm Remington Magnum
325 WSM
   Both use .323 caliber bullets.

340 Weatherby Magnum
338 Winchester Magnum
338-06 A-Square
   All use .338 caliber bullets

378 Weatherby Magnum (replaced the 375 Weatherby Magnum)
375 H&H Magnum
375 JDJ
375 Winchester
   All use .375 caliber bullets

357 Magnum
38 Special
   Both use .357 caliber bullets

9mm Luger
357 Sig
380 Auto
   All use .355 caliber bullets

38-40 WCF
   Uses .401 caliber bullets

41 AE
41 Magnum
   Both use .410 caliber bullets (perfect names)

44 Magnum
44 Special
   All use .429 caliber bullets

44-40 Winchester
   Uses .427 caliber bullets

460 S&W Magnum
454 Casull
45 Colt
45 ACP
   All use either .451, .452, .454 caliber bullets depending on the firearm.

450 Marlin
45-70 Govt
   Both use .458 caliber bullets

475 Linebaugh
480 Ruger
   Both use .475 caliber bullets.

50 AE
500 S&W Magnum
   Both use .500 caliber bullets

500 Linebaugh
   Uses .511 caliber bullets

yooper77

AtlLaw · « **Reply #12 on:** July 24, 2008, 07:23:25 AM »

Hey Yoops...
Like you say, different can be fun. But have you ever noticed that there are NO .19, .29, .39 or .49 caliber cartridges!? Coincidence? I think not!

Arizona Jake · « **Reply #13 on:** July 24, 2008, 06:37:39 PM »

Thank you all very much for the lively comments!

I think I'll stick with the regular .260. An extra 100 fps won't kill 'em any deader...

Regards,

Doc RD · « **Reply #14 on:** July 29, 2008, 01:08:37 PM »

AtlLaw,

FYI, there is a .19 caliber, the Calhoon line. They're based on .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine and .223 Remington cases they seem to work OK.

Later, Doc

AtlLaw · « **Reply #15 on:** July 31, 2008, 05:49:30 AM »

Quote from: Doc RD on July 29, 2008, 01:08:37 PM

FYI, there is a .19 caliber, the Calhoon line.

Yeah? Well, you ain't so cool!

Everybody KNOWS I was talkin' 'bout SAMMI standardized cat-tra-ges! Not no wildcat stuff! What sence would it make to wildcat a wildcat!

This IS a discussion on AI'ing factory rounds ya know...

nomosendero · « **Reply #16 on:** August 04, 2008, 04:55:20 PM »

There are more reasons to AI a round than velocity alone. With this particular round I would tend to stay with the std. round. But here is another view & it is worth something, he sure shoots a 260 alot more than me. Remember, in his game a little vel. can make a diff. at
600 yards & beyond, so everything is relative.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html

I would not expect more than 100fps additional with this round, partly because the case has little taper to begin with.

As far as velocity gains with the AI go, we can't say that you will get a certain gain across the board as the percentage gain in capacity will vary from one round to another. For example, the cap. increase for a 30-30 given the AI treatment is a much larger gain in percentage than for 30-06 getting the AI treatment, so why on earth would the gain be the same for both, doesn't make sense.
I have both the 30-30AI & the 30-06AI & the 30-30 gained a bunch more than the '06 for obvious reasons.
Here is a chart that illustrates the point quite well.

http://www.4-dproducts.com/ackleychart.php

AtlLaw · « **Reply #17 on:** August 06, 2008, 07:14:49 AM »

Quote from: nomosendero on August 04, 2008, 04:55:20 PM

I have both the 30-30AI & the 30-06AI & the 30-30 gained a bunch more than the '06 for obvious reasons.

Seems to me the general consensis of those that know is that the 30/30 is one cartridge that benefits a good deal from the AI treatment. Hummmm

Mayhaps I need to start looking around for a donor lever gun... or maybe a Handi barrel...

One can never have to many projects you know!

Maybe I'll ease over to the Handi Rifle board and see who has done it! I know someone has!!

OH! I wonder if they ever came up with a 30/30 Hawk? Now that';d be something!

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #18 on:** August 06, 2008, 04:04:17 PM »

AtlLaw, just sent one of the "H" barrels off to have it cut to the 30-30AI today. Tim,(Quick) has one he has just started playing with. Watch his posts and when I get mine I'll post also. DP. By the way, like your sense of humor, little warped like mine.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #19 on:** August 07, 2008, 05:54:37 AM »

Quote from: dpe.ahoy on August 06, 2008, 04:04:17 PM

Tim,(Quick) has one he has just started playing with.

I was going to check with Tim. If anybody would have an informed opinion he would. I'm getting more and more curious about the 30/30 Hawk concept though. But I can't research it because my home system melted down.

Quote

By the way, like your sense of humor, little warped like mine.

Uh, thanks? ... I think... $:-\$

Lone Star · « **Reply #20 on:** August 07, 2008, 08:24:20 AM »

One reason for the "extra" velocity from the .30-30AI is that after the AI treatment it is always loaded to higher pressures than the parent case. Another 5,000+ psi can make a noticeable difference in performance even with the same case capacity.

nomosendero · « **Reply #21 on:** August 07, 2008, 03:47:01 PM »

Actually it gains a good deal more because it is capable of a good deal more. A quote from Frank C Barnes in Cartridges Of The World, 9th Edition: "Many hunters wished that the 30-30 had a little more oomph. The 30-30 Improved does just that by providing an additional 200-300 fps within the working pressure limits of the std. Win. Model 94 action." Also from Beartooth bullets "The 30-30 Ackley Improved cartridge deviates from the NORMAL Ackley design in the fact that the shoulder is moved forward when compared to the parent cartridge." Also, again keep in mind that some cartridges have more taper than others, the 30-30 is one of those with more taper. With the more forward shoulder & as anyone can understand, the 30-30 will gain more than most because it gains a higher percentage of powder space than a 30-06 type round & even more yet with a round such as the 308 or 260.

I already provided a chart which shows a LARGE variance in gains made by the Ackley treatment, some very little & some alot.

And though another example of of how SOME rounds gain more than others should not be needed, I'll give one anyway. Take a lookie at the Sierra Manual #5. Take a lookie at the 6mmRemAI and look at what SIERRA has to say about it & I quote "In the
example of the 6mm Remington, the excessive body taper & gentle shoulder design provides SUBSTANTIAL room for improvement." Sierra's words, not mine.

But back to the original question.

Unless you are a serious Target/Tactical shooter, I don't believe I would AI the 260. Because of the lack of taper & small powder increases of this round, I doubt the value added would be much at all.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #22 on:** August 08, 2008, 02:01:14 PM »

30-30 Hawk?

Where can I find something out about that one? Another round P.O. Ackley thought benifited alot from being improved was the 7x57, which the 6mm is based on. DP

Lone Star · « **Reply #23 on:** August 09, 2008, 05:35:53 AM »

Quote

Actually it gains a good deal more because it is capable of a good deal more....

Nomo, I don't know why you responded so to my post. I certainly was not demeaning your favorite cartridge in my post. All I stated was one reason why the .30-30AI shows a velocity improvement over the parent case. That reason is not a factor with the 6mmAI cartridge since the pressures remain the same between the factory and the AI versions. This is not true with the .30-30AI.

Quote

Also, again keep in mind that some cartridges have more taper than others, the 30-30 is one of those with more taper...

Uh, the .30-30 has less body taper than the .30-06 does - 0.014"/inch vs 0.016"/inch.

.

nomosendero · « **Reply #24 on:** August 09, 2008, 04:05:54 PM »

Quote from: Lone Star on August 09, 2008, 05:35:53 AM

Quote
Actually it gains a good deal more because it is capable of a good deal more....

Nomo, I don't know why you responded so to my post. I certainly was not demeaning your favorite cartridge in my post. All I stated was one reason why the .30-30AI shows a velocity improvement over the parent case. That reason is not a factor with the 6mmAI cartridge since the pressures remain the same between the factory and the AI versions. This is not true with the .30-30AI.

Quote
Also, again keep in mind that some cartridges have more taper than others, the 30-30 is one of those with more taper...
Uh, the .30-30 has less body taper than the .30-06 does - 0.014"/inch vs 0.016"/inch.

"why you responded so", no biggie except I get tired of the claimed 100fps for "most all" AI rounds, it simply is false info. When applied t the 30-30AI, 25-35AI, 30-40Krag AI, 250SavAI, 6.5X55AI, 257 Roberts AI, & several others. I have found the 100FPS rumor to be the case with the 30-06 & simular rounds & I could go along with someone saying that more rounds than not gain 100fps. But actually a few rounds like the 35Whelen would fall short of 100fps quite often. So, I pointed that out & will next time it comes up, which is often. Nothing wrong with that, just like you pointed out the taper errror on my part. The fact remains that with the drastic change of the 30-30 case, esp. shoulder area, the round gains far more than 100fps & that is old news.

As far as the statement of the 30-30AI being my favorite round, where did that come from? I have not talked that much about it all & only use it in a Super14, which safely gives 2,400fps with the 150BT. I talk far more about the 25-06 & AI, 223, 300WM & several other rounds on this forum & they are favored far above the 30-30AI.

It is also old news that many push the AI rounds harder & gain more vel. than if both are loaded to the same pressures, but that does not change the fact that some rounds gain more than others & sev. beyond that often stated 100fps.

Lone Star · « **Reply #25 on:** August 10, 2008, 06:59:36 AM »

Wow, someone has issues.

Okay, sorry I hit a hot button. But like I said in my last post - it was not like I was demeaning your favorite cartridge, so I was surprised at the emotional response with all the capitalized bolds. That type of response is usually reserved for someone who called a favorite cartridge/rifle a POS or worse...

.

nomosendero · « **Reply #26 on:** August 10, 2008, 07:23:55 AM »

Quote from: Lone Star on August 10, 2008, 06:59:36 AM

Wow, someone has issues. Okay, sorry I hit a hot button. But like I said in my last post - it was not like I was demeaning your favorite cartridge, so I was surprised at the emotional response with all the capitalized bolds. That type of response is usually reserved for someone who called a favorite cartridge/rifle a POS or worse...

.

Maybe you do have issues, I don't. Actually, I hoped we were done with it on Aug 7th. Like I said, it is far from a favorite & in fact a round I
shoot from time to time. I shoot other rounds alot more & favor others alot more, but I am not a type person who has a FAVORITE, just a nuts &
bolts kind of guy really. So hopefully now we can get back on topic as I had asked to do on Aug. 7th.
Thanks

AtlLaw · « **Reply #27 on:** August 11, 2008, 09:25:21 AM »

Quote from: dpe.ahoy on August 08, 2008, 02:01:14 PM

30-30 Hawk?

Actually, I don't think there is such a thing!

I always thought the Hawk line was pretty interesting, but if the 30/30 AI already moves the shoulder foward I guess it's already been Hawk-ed!

MGMorden · « **Reply #28 on:** August 11, 2008, 10:29:35 AM »

Quote from: AtlLaw on August 11, 2008, 09:25:21 AM

Quote from: dpe.ahoy on August 08, 2008, 02:01:14 PM
30-30 Hawk?

Actually, I don't think there is such a thing! I always thought the Hawk line was pretty interesting, but if the 30/30 AI already moves the shoulder foward I guess it's already been Hawk-ed!

I think also that all the Hawk cartridges are based on the .30-06 case just adapted for various calibers. As such the .300 Hawk is about as close as you'll get. I too have always found the line very interesting. I've long thought that the .375 Hawk/Scovill was a very good idea - kind of a "mini" .375 H&H but built on extremely common .30-06 brass. Pity though that it's #1 feature would be cost savings due to using easily available brass; it being a fairly obscure wildcat kinda kills that feature as the initial investment in the rifle + dies nullifies any cost savings that you'd hope to achieve.

nomosendero · « **Reply #29 on:** August 11, 2008, 02:59:09 PM »

Quote from: Arizona Jake on July 22, 2008, 06:58:37 PM

I've been contemplating obtaining an extra barrel for my Tikka 595 Whitetail Hunter rifle in .260 Ackley Improved.

Does anyone out there have any experience with this cartdrige? I've read some interesting articles in the 6mm BR website and would like to know what opinions members of this forum have on this cartridge. As always, any and all info will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Joaquin B

Just a reminder to myself & others of the original question.