416 WSSM

[Nobade]

I've been thinking about doing a 416 WSSM recently. Those WSSM barrels don't last long, and if I find one cheap enough with a burned out barrel I think I'll try it. The idea is kind of like the old Remington 600 in 350 mag - something extremely light, short bolt throw, with lots of hit. Since the case holds around 55 grains of powder it should have an effect about like a 400 Whelen, 350 grain bullets at maybe 2100-2200 fps. Plenty of power for deer and bear hunting, in something that weighs about 6 pounds or so.  I've got several calibers of WSSM reamers with floating pilots, and a 416 neck/throater so building one shouldn't be too hard. I'm not sure if I can neck the cases up that far, but if I start with WSSM brass and cut it off it shouldn't be a problem. Anybody out there hear of anyone doing something like this yet?

[Catfish]

The one thing I see that may cause a problem is neck thickness of the brass after it`s necked up, it`s going to be getting thin, and you may have a problem with bullet pull during recoil?? Should be a real stopper.

[Reed1911]

THIN?! I doubt it, take another look at the neck thickness of the WSSM's they look like the standard WSM cases were sized down and shortened and they just left the necks as thick as the body. I think you'll be fine really, heck If I get a chance to play I'll anneal some down and try it. If they are too thin, you can always form them from WSM cases.

[Nobade]

Yep, my thoughts exactly. I figure once they are necked up they'd probably be about right. The regular WSSM brass has way too much neck thickness.

[Lone Star]

This is a great idea.  The .411/.416" on an '06 case really doesn't have enough shoulder, but on the WSSM case that sure isn't a problem.  Even with a short action a 350-grain bullet should be able to be seated out so it won't take up too much case capacity.  I like the idea of a .375 WSSM as well.....



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[Catfish]

If I take a look at the WSSM case it won`t be again, it would be for the first time. I`ve never messed with them yet. As for the shoulder on the 06 case with a .411 you have .009 of shoulder, at least on the .411 Hawk, and you do have to be carefull when loading them.I may have to take a look at those cases.  I don`t have a .20 cal. wildcat yet.

[Nobade]

Well, I don't have an expander mandrel for 416, but do have one for 35 cal. I opened a Winchester nickel plated case up that far, and it's just sooo cute - looks just like a scaled up 7BR. One of these days I'll have to build the 416 version, if I can ever find a M70 Coyote for cheap enough to have rebored. They have a heavy enough barrel to open up that far, and a nice laminated stock that can be pillar bedded so would be the most cost effective way to go for a conversion like this.
BTW, I've got a WSSM rifle in the shop that is getting rebarreled to 20 WSSM, and the owner wants a real stock for it. I can't find anybody who makes a WSSM stock besides the factory. Anybody got any ideas? This receiver is way shorter than a regular M70.

[onesonek]

You interested in going custom on that stock for the .20 WSSM Nobade?
As to the thoughts on the .416 WSSM. Sounds like it would be a good thumper. I wish I had the actual capacity figures. My quick research came to the conclusion that it's a little closer in capacity to the .308 case?? not sure though.
With that it put the numbers off the chart for my Powley slide rules. But fudging the numbers some, it still looks like 2000-2100 maybe possible with a 20" tube and do nicely out to 200 yds with a 5" PBR and the 350 gr Speer.

Dave

[NFG]

You piqued my curiosity about using the WSSM case.  I like the 416 cal, have a 416 Taylor and was considering building a rifle using one of my extra SA Rem actions and the already developed 416 WSM.

I ran some numbers through WinLoad and Load Disk for a 416 WSSM using the Barnes 350 XFB, it having a very high BC...the Barnes 400 gr XFB having the highest.  I came up with 1700-1950 fs at a max of 52 KCUP with both programs, using H4227, AA2015, or RX7 in a 20" bbl.  Of course, actual load testing could produce different ballistics.

Empty case capacity is about 52g H2O at 1.67" and about 40g H2O with the Barnes bullet seated to 2.6" COL...I'm not sure what the magazine max cartridge length is in the rifles you're talking about.

I didn't even consider the WSSM case when I was looking at using the WSM case.  Now that I have and even though it is an interesting concept, I would not consider actually building a rifle using this case.  To my thinking it would be a lot of work for not much result in comparison with the larger WSM case, but I would be very interested in following post from someone who is actually building a rifle.  The ballistic numbers would equal a standard 45-70 with equal bullet weights tho', in a much smaller package, so it isn't really a lot of work in that respect.

I also looked at the 44, 45 and 50 cals using the WSM case (all could be done to the WSSM also).  I know of at least one 458 WSM, and one or two blurbs using the 44 cal, but nothing larger.  A 50 cal would be a straight walled case basically and there are just a whole bunch of other good 50 cals, rimmed and rimless, out there already available, so I put that idea aside.  A 375 WSM has also been done and the same caliber using the WSSM case would be an excellent prospect also.  It  might even be ballistically superior to the 416 cal using a 350 gr Woodleigh.

At one time there was a site dedicated to the WSM and WSSM cases but it went by the wayside...and I sure miss it.

The 458 is eminently do-able and produces some very good ballistics, but other things got in the way at that time and I didn't pursue the matter...plus I still like the 416 WSM concept and will probably do one someday.  I'm just finishing up my 460 Boondoggle McWildman so the need to breed is already working at my loins, so to speak, to get started on another project soon.  I seem to be building more large caliber boomers the last couple of years than anything else.

As far as necking up is concerned some used Redding expander buttons and some just fireformed, or a combination of the two.  In the bad old days some would use a stub barrel chambered for the case or make a "gun" that screwed onto the sizing die to firefore...haven't seen one of those in 40 odd years...not since the hayday of wildcatting.

I think going where no one has gone before is the heart and soul of 'Catting...doesn't matter the reasons pro or con.

Good luck if you decide to do this project.

[Nobade]

Thanks for running the numbers on this! I don't have any of the loading software, so all I can do is make a guess based on the capacity, pretty much the same as a 308. If I ever get my hands on a M70 Coyote WSSM rifle I'm going to have it rebored and make up one of these.(After rebore it'll only take a 416 neck/throater to make it work.)  My thinking is the RCBS 350gr. cast bullet is going to be about close to perfect for it, and with top loads should be close to 450 Marlin or hot 45-70 performance out of a small lightweight repeater. The coyote is kind of heavy in 22 cal, but with that big hole in the barrel should be about right. Any other Winchester WSSM I've ever seen had a junk stock on it, so I'd want to start with a Coyote model. 

[charles p]

I once bought some bulk brass in 300WSM and one of the case headstamps was 243WSSM.  It was too short, of course, to go over the factory's 300WSM die (Winchester).  The resulting case was the length of a 300 with no neck.

I realize this is not the topic here, but just thought I'd through this in.  There is only so much brass to work with on a WSSM case.  To expand to .416 it might be necessary to bump the shoulder back to make the case even shorter than it is - to have enough brass to flow out to the larger bore diameter.

[NFG]

You could also fireform the WSSM case with corn meal  and 10-15 gr of Bullseye in any WSM or Rum chamber and come out with a straight walled case...much easier to neck down that to neck up and the neck gets thicker so you can turn it to chamber dimensions. This project could get a bit spendy in time and money, for the expected results, although it would make a great single shot pistol.

I also think the WSSM and WSM's might be headed toward extinction so if you do decide to do it, buy up plenty of brass.

[Lone Star]

I'm not so sure that the WSMs are headed for extinction any time soon.  Things look different for the SAUMs and the WSSMs however.  Looking at the RCBS die sales chart rankings since 2004 (I only have the top 25 for 2005):

Cartridge....2004...2005...2007
.300 WSM.....5........11......11
.270 WSM....14.......19......20
7mm WSM...34.................40
.223 WSSM..31.................43
.243 WSSM..31.......24.......41
.25 WSSM....39.......25......47
.300 SAUM...41................NA

To put the rankings into perspective, in 2007:

#  1... .223 Remington
#10... .204 Ruger
#15... .25-06
#25...  6.5x55
#35... .280 Remington
#45... .454 Casull
#49... .41 Magnum

The .300 and .270 WSMs appear pretty well entrenched, but the WSSMs seem to be sliding off the scale.  The SAUMs look like dismal failures - based on die sales anyway.




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