Author Topic: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease  (Read 1746 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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The historic bronze cannons at the Washington Navy Yard show the most extensive bronze disease damage I've seen in a single collection. Most of the weapons are somewhere between moderately and severely impacted. Every weapon I checked at the Washington Navy Yard last week showed evidence of bronze disease. On many, the given names of the weapons are no longer legible; you have to read the sign or look up the names as they were recorded some years ago when they were still legible. All other marks on the diseased weapons are similarly degraded.

I made some calls and wound up with a name and phone number of the person responsible for that area, then left a voicemail since the phone was not answered. I'll follow up on that if there's no response after a reasonable time.

Here's a link to a slideshow of paired photos taken last week, one of a weapon overall, and the other of an area impacted by bronze disease. The numbers "No. __" in the titles of each pair of photos correspond to the Navy's description of these guns, cached from the Naval Historical Center's website.

Slideshow of damaged cannons:

http://tinyurl.com/5bypam

The link below goes to the cached webpage giving the Navy's descriptions of the guns in Leutze Park, Washington Navy Yard.

What should be done about this?

I'm sure smarter people will come up with something better some day, but if I were asked right now what could be done immediately, I'd say:

a. Get the weapons out of the sun and rain immediately.

b. Assess them to see which would benefit most from cleaning, stabilization, and application of microcrystalline wax.

c. Treat the cannons in priority order established in step b, as funding is available.

d. Re-assess ultimate display/storage location to optimize security/stability/public access/interpretation.


Navy's descriptions of guns in Leutze Park

 http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:VLwl3rftvRQJ:www.history.navy.mil/cannons/cannons.html+washington+navy+yard+leutze&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us


Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2008, 09:36:17 AM »
     O.K. Cannonmn,  I'll bite; what exactly is "Bronze Disease" and what causes it?  How does it differ visually and structurally from the beautiful dark green "patina" displayed on the French 4 Pdr. cannon which we saw last summer inside the  Springfield Armory in Springfield, Mass.?  How are surfaces effected by this debilitating condition cleaned and then stabilized before application of the wax you mentioned?  Based on your answers to these questions, Mike and I will watch for these signs of deteriorating bronze artillery around the country and try to persuade the  caretakers to apply the proper preservation measures. 

Thank you for your good work.

Tracy and Mike


The bore size of this highly decorative french cannon can be discerned by 'reading' the "Face in a Sunburst" design seen in this photo.  French General Valliere standardized
all French artillery in 1832 including dimensions, weights, etc. and provided a visual method of identification via specific decorative details for each standard bore size.  They were: 

          4 pdr.---Face in a Sunburst
          8 pdr.---Monkey Head
        12 pdr.---Rooster Head
        16 pdr.---Medusa Head
        24 pdr.---Bacchus Head





Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2008, 10:05:55 AM »
Corrosion of copper based metals is accelerated in smoggy, automobile laden urban atmospheres (comes from the sulfur in the gasoline.)  It is inevitable that this will occur unless action is taken to actively protect the guns in the DC area from the environment.
GG
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2008, 02:42:37 PM »
its crap to see this happened , sell a few and take care of the rest .
that's better then have all of them destroyed .
this destruction is fast when it have started .
I sure hope john that you can have something done to stop this destruction of your countries antique guns .
I would be ashamed if I had the responsibility of the guns .
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2008, 06:10:04 PM »
Bronze disease has appearance of dull very light colored powdery surface, light green with valleys sometimes filled in with white s__t.  It happens a lot as has been mentioned in areas with available carbon compounds in the air, and moisture is a catylist for it.  It commonly afflicts ancient Roman coins, so most of what is known about it and its removal and prevention comes from coin collectors and dealers.

Carbon and oxygen (??) combine wiith copper to form Cupric Carbonate CuCo3.  I dont' know if CO or CO2 react with the copper directly but one or the other probably does.  It has been a while since I read up on it, but google "bronze disease" and there's a bunch of info.

Rain can absorb carbon then react with the copper.  I think the CuCo3 is water-soluble because rain washes it off onto the concrete foundations for the cannons and stains them green.

Smooth, shiny, dark patina:  Good!

Dull, powdery, light green or turquoise surface:  May be bronze disease!

Any bronze cannon that has a sandpaper-like surface almost certainly has or has had B.D.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2008, 08:51:49 PM »
The CO2 and H2O react to form carbonic acid which settles out with dew or rain.  The acid rain of the east damages cannon as well as lakes and forests.
GG
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--Winston Churchill

Offline Bob Smith

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2008, 12:33:44 AM »
I have been following this topic for some time.
Bronze disease is when copper chloride is formed on the surface of a bronze object – copper chloride is very corrosive and “eats” – corrodes – the surface very quickly. It usually shows up ass bright (ish) green corrosion. Copper chloride can only form if there a source of chloride available and this is usually from immersion in the sea. Chlorides are not usually present in the air – even polluted air.
From the pictures provided I would say that the cannon do not have classic bronze disease but are suffering from normal bronze corrosion caused by them being out in the open air. This is much slower acting than bronze disease and takes decades, if not centuries, to destroy an object. This is not to say that anyone should be complacent – just that the situation is not critical. What is needed is that the guns are better looked after and not ignored.
Ideally they should be brought indoors but this is often impossible. Second best is that they are cleaned and then regularly maintained and looked after. A protective coating of microcrystalline wax is a very good idea but it mustn’t be forgotten that it needs to be regularly replaced – the secret is regular maintenance – someone looking after them.
What is needed is a qualified conservator who can provide proper condition reports, treatment recommendations and conservation proposals for them.

Bob Smith

Offline dan610324

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2008, 06:19:21 AM »
also remember that an vax coating in an public are doesnt protecr for long , people touch it and the wax will be lost very soon
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2008, 10:06:51 AM »
Quote
Bronze disease is when copper chloride is formed on the surface of a bronze object

Bob, not to be argumentative, but are you absolutely sure about that?  The coin collector sites that discuss bronze disease talk in terms of copper carbonate, which comes from CO2 in the air getting onto the rain and dew forming carbonic acid, which then reacts with the copper, eating it away while cupric carbonate is formed.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2008, 01:37:07 PM »
Here are the websites of three organizations mentioned to me by the curator at the Presidio, National Park Service, San Francisco. She is responsible for 31 cannons, both bronze and iron, and has an ongoing program to conserve the cannons and other artifacts in her museums.

American Institute of Conservation:

http://aic.stanford.edu/

National Center for Preservation Technology and Training

http://www.ncptt.nps.gov/

Save our Statues:

http://www.heritagepreservation.org/Programs/Sos/aboutsos.htm

Offline Bob Smith

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2008, 12:12:43 AM »
Yes I am sure! I have worked in museum conservation for over thirty years, including the care of a large number of cannons, and we would only ever use the term "bronze disease" to refer to chlorine-based attacks. There is an excellent article here by David Scott, a very respected conservator: http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic29-02-007_1.html

Bob Smith

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2008, 01:30:15 AM »
Bob, thanks, great article, certainly the author is "da man" for that topic.  The only question I'd have is that in reading between the lines, he's only concerned with excavated objects, or excavated objects on display inside museums.  I'd humbly submit that the cannons I'm talking about are all non-excavated and are in a similar environment, cycling between wet and dry, and usually exposed to sunlight.

However,  much of his article probably directly applicable to our problem.  The things that grabbed my attention include: 

Moisture is bad, oxygen is bad, even light is bad.  The "dirty white" outlines I see, often in the grooves left by engraving, are tin or oxides of it left after the copper has reacted.  The fact that light plays a role backs up my observations that the cannons in shady areas at Ft. McNair were in better shape than those in the direct sunlight. 

I also observed that the two 1759 French 4-pounders that had been painted black did not show any evidence of bronze disease.  Why?  The complete coat of black paint deprives the cannon of all of the "bad actors" needed to support the chemical reaction, namely moisture, oxygen, and light.

The reason none of the many bronze cannons on display at Watervliet Arsenal seem to have active bronze disease is that all but one are kept inside.

Here's my summary of the article you linked, which I will post on one other discussion I have running on this topic:

______________

Excerpts from article that may be important to conservation of US trophy cannon:

BRONZE DISEASE: A REVIEW OF SOME CHEMICAL PROBLEMS AND THE ROLE OF RELATIVE HUMIDITY
by DAVID A. SCOTT

published in:  Journal of American Institute for Conservation, JAIC 1990, Volume 29, Number 2, Article 7 (pp. 193 to 206)
 
 ABSTRACT—A general review of some of the theories proposed to account for the process of “bronze disease” is presented from both the historical and chemical points of view. The corrosion product of most serious concern, cuprous chloride, and its inter-relationship with some of the other important corrosion products of copper alloys, such as the copper trihydroxychlorides, is reviewed. The critical RH for the transformation of cuprous chloride is discussed and suggestions are made concerning both the storage conditions for bronzes and the variety of conditions under which cuprous chloride can occur in excavated bronze.

A.  This article summarizes the salient information published to date on the subject of cuprous chloride and bronze disease.

B.  Bronze disease may be defined as the process of interaction of chloride-containing species within the bronze patina with moisture and air, often accompanied by corrosion of the copper alloy itself, a process which has been more or less understood for the last 100 years. The products of the reaction are light green, powdery, voluminous basic chlorides of copper, which disrupt the surface and may disfigure the object. Several corrosion processes of copper are also enhanced by visible light. Cuprous chloride, for example, is a light-sensitive material and must be kept in the dark, preferably in a vacuum desiccator to prevent any chemical change.

C.  Berthelot's essential conclusion—that the recurrence is due to a cyclical reaction involving both oxygen and moisture—is indeed correct. More is known about the process today, but we still do not know all the details of the corrosion chemistry involved.

D.  It is clear, however, that there is no reason per se to reduce the RH of stored bronzes that are not showing signs of active corrosion to levels below 39%. Storage at an RH between 42% and 46% should provide adequate conditions for most objects. The humidity should not be allowed to rise above 55% because the reactions of cuprous chloride become very rapid as the RH rises and will not necessarily stop as soon as the RH is lowered again.

(author) DAVID A. SCOTT, B.Sc., B.A., Ph.D., C.Chem. MRSC, FIIC, has been head of Museum Services of the Scientific Program at the Getty Conservation Institute since 1987. He has been a lecturer in conservation at the Institute of Archaeology, University of London, Department of Archaeological Conservation and Materials Science, and, since 1984, an editor of Studies in Conservation. He was named a fellow of the International Institute for Conservation in 1989. His principal research interests are the analysis and technical study of ancient metallic objects and their corrosion products, the conservation of metallic artifacts, the study of Chumash Indian rock art and the archaeometallurgy of ancient South America, particularly Colombia and Ecuador. Address: The J. Paul Getty Museum, P.O. Box 2112, Santa Monica, Calif. 90406.

complete article URL:  http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic29-02-007_1.html

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2008, 03:56:02 AM »
In another discussion I had mentioned how the Navy was not sure which organization was in charge of the cannons, from a "physical custody" issue, which of course implies maintenance.  This is today's status:

I followed up on this issue today and found that the Navy is working on it at what seems (to this outsider) to be the appropriate level, between the Deputy Director of the Naval Historical Center, and his counterpart at the Naval District Washington.  After responsibility is determined, I should have a point of contact who can speak for the Navy on the issue of the condition of the bronze cannons and any plans for studies or conservation. 

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2008, 01:04:41 PM »
This afternoon I received this information from an authoritative source in the Navy:

"The items are on public display in Naval District Washington, so it would be best to start with them.  The Naval Historical Center (NHC) is the cognizant organization for historical artifacts Navy wide.  The cannon are technically on loan from NHC."

So I immediately wrote this letter to the address they provided:

Quote
Sir, I need to bring an important matter to your attention.  I’m an amateur historian with a special interest in antique artillery pieces.  Leutze Park in the Washington Navy Yard contains some of the rarest and most valuable trophy cannons in this country.

This summer I visited several major military museums in the US, and photographed the bronze artillery pieces on display.  My tour included Fort Ticonderoga, NY, Watervliet Arsenal NY, Fort McNair, DC, the Washington Navy Yard, and the US Naval Academy.  I’ve been studying these old cannons for the past 30 years and have a pretty good eye for the relative condition of the pieces I’m looking at.  I have to tell you that the guns in Leutze Park seem to be in poorer average condition than those at any other place I visited.  When I contacted the Naval Historical Center about this matter, they told me I should write to you. 

When I got to the Navy Yard about two weeks ago, I was shocked at the decrepit condition of the bronze guns and howitzers in Leutze Park.  Many of the guns have had their beautiful and informative engraved markings partially or largely removed by corrosion.   When I first looked at them around 1980, to the best of my recollection almost all of the given names engraved on banners on the chases of the guns were completely legible.  Now many are illegible if not completely erased by atmospheric corrosion.  The engraved royal coats of arms have all but faded completely from some of the Spanish guns.  If you need solid proof of what has happened and the timeframe in which it has occurred, perhaps the Naval Photographic Center has some older photographs you could use for comparison.

I recommend you have a professional bronze conservator assess the situation and make recommendations, then go from there.   I’d make it a priority to stop the ongoing damage as soon as possible even if it involves moving all of the guns indoors until their condition and need for treatment can be assessed.  If I can be of any assistance, please let me know.  If you request funding to address the issue and don’t obtain it, I’ll see if I can get some private sector assistance for the project. 

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2008, 02:07:11 AM »
So now I've played along with the Navy during many emails, phone conversations, and now back to snail mail as recommended by them yesterday.  I've spent at least several entire days on this and I sure hope my time hasn't been completely wasted.  I worked in the Navy bureaucracy for a few decades and know you have to be very patient with it to get anything done even when you uncover the "proper channels" to use, and I've followed the unwritten rules and done that. 

If no action occurs after all that, or I'm asked to contact yet someone else, my plan is to change my approach to one that's more "success-oriented."  I live about a 30-minute drive from the Navy Yard.  Capitol Hill (that's where the U.S. Congress is) is only a 25-minute drive.   I'll never get mad or frustrated about this, since either reaction just wastes time and energy, but I will get this problem fixed.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 07:57:07 AM »
I got some new information and it looks as though something is happening, just not very fast.

I checked in with Navy officials at both Naval District Washington and the Navy Museum today.  The topic of physical custody and maintenance responsibility for the large outside collection in the Washington Navy Yard is under discussion, and although I've gotten that answer before, this is a rather large issue and I believe that status is accurate as of today. 

Having myself been a Navy bureaucrat, this type of "staffing" is typical.  The folks I talked to gave me estimates on the order of "a few months" to get it all worked out. Of course, I offered any assistance I might be able to provide once the major issue is resolved, up to and including physically moving the cannons that are within the capability of my equipment.  From what I was told, the possibility of moving the cannons to inside storage does not seem to be out of the question, but would require consensus of both Naval Historical Center and Naval District Washington, even if one of them winds up with the primary responsibility.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2008, 12:35:16 AM »
Here's the webpage that shows the Navy guns we're talking about.  I couldn't get it to come up for the last few months but it is there now.  Notice "No. 8" a 12-pounder Spanish gun.  The Navy sent it out for restoration about 15 years ago and it never came back, what a deal!

http://www.history.navy.mil/cannons/cannons.html

Offline dan610324

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2008, 01:18:23 AM »
what happened with it ??
where did they send it ??
is it any criminal act behind the disappearing or ??
what are they doing to get it back ??
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2008, 02:15:30 AM »
Quote
what happened with it ??
where did they send it ??
is it any criminal act behind the disappearing or ??
what are they doing to get it back ??


Dan, as far as I know, it went to a small museum that volunteered to do the work.  All that place did was to bead-blast it (something you never do with bronze cannons-you use crushed walnut shells only) and coat it with microcrystalline wax.  Then they kept it.

I think I'll volunteer to work on some of their cannons in my garage, since no one will mind if it takes me 30 years!

On a more serious note, I do find it a bit troubling that the Navy doesn't seem to care if one of their cannons is absent for a very long time, however, at least something was done in the direction of trying to save one of them.  Meanwhile the rest of them are still corroding, the copper washing off into the ground every time it rains, taking with it the delicate engraved coats of arms, manufacturer's markings, etc.  The collection has probably lost at least several million dollars' worth of value if you look at what such fine rare guns would fetch on the international antiques market today, so I can see why neither of the two organizations you'd think might be in charge of the cannons, will admit that they are responsible.

Frankly as a taxpayer and a cannon enthusiast, all that government blame-shifting BS makes me want to puke.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2008, 08:29:37 AM »
I sure can understand your feelings here
why not just go there and fetch a few of them , take them home and do the conservation and show them the result ??
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons: Letters to and from the Navy
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2008, 03:25:16 PM »

5 August 2008
Rear Adm. Patrick J. Lorge
Commandant, Naval District Washington
1411 Parsons Ave SE, Suite 200,
Washington Navy Yard, D.C., 20374-5001

Dear Admiral,
Sir, I need to bring an important matter to your attention.  I’m an amateur historian with a special interest in antique artillery pieces.  Leutze Park near your quarters contains some of the rarest and most valuable trophy cannons in this country.

This summer I visited several major military museums in the US, and photographed the bronze artillery pieces on display.  My tour included Fort Ticonderoga, NY, Watervliet Arsenal NY, Fort McNair, DC, the Washington Navy Yard, and the US Naval Academy.  I’ve been studying these old cannons for the past 30 years and have a pretty good eye for the relative condition of the pieces I’m looking at.  I have to tell you that the guns in Leutze Park seem to be in poorer average condition than those at any other place I visited.  When I contacted the Naval Historical Center about this matter, they told me I should write to you. 

When I got to the Navy Yard about two weeks ago, I was shocked at the decrepit condition of the bronze guns and howitzers in Leutze Park.  Many of the guns have had their beautiful and informative engraved markings partially or largely removed by corrosion.   When I first looked at them around 1980, to the best of my recollection almost all of the given names engraved on banners on the chases of the guns were completely legible.  Now many are illegible if not completely erased by atmospheric corrosion.  The engraved royal coats of arms have faded almost completely on some of the Spanish guns.  If you need solid proof of what has happened and the timeframe in which it has occurred, perhaps the Naval Photographic Center has some older photographs you could use for comparison.

I recommend you have a professional bronze conservator assess the situation and make recommendations, then go from there.   I’d make it a priority to stop the ongoing damage as soon as possible even if it involves moving all of the guns indoors until their condition and need for treatment can be assessed.  If I can be of any assistance, please let me know.  If you request funding to address the issue and don’t obtain it, I’ll see if I can get some private sector assistance for the project. 

Very Respectfully,

John L. Morris


(letter from the Navy)  http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums19/NDWltr20080827mod.jpg






The typing isn't crooked near the bottom of the page, I didn't get the second page perfectly aligned on the scanner.

I guess they've changed their position on donations, when I talked to the people at the Naval Historical Center they mentioned that the Naval Historical Foundation was always looking for funds they could apply to such projects.

I guess the bottom line on the letter is that they aren't going to do anything; too bad.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2008, 05:56:39 PM »
cant say anything else then :

FU _ _ ING IDIOTS
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2008, 09:28:48 PM »
Would simply painting them with a clear finish as they stand at least slow down the damage?
GG
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2008, 11:31:20 PM »
Quote
would...painting them with clear finish...slow down the...

If that sort of approach were to be used, the finish should be opaque to keep out sunlight.  Sunlight is certainly a catylist that accelerates the corrosion, don't ask me why, but I've seen again and again where cannons in the shade are in good shape and those in direct sunlight (cannons of the same type and age) are heavily corroded.

There's no reason such a cannon could not be gently cleaned of the heavier corrosion products, dried completely, primed with primer paint, then painted with a finish coat matching the color they were before that treatment.  I've seen five bronze guns that were painted.  One at the Naval Academy that's been painted for at least the past 40 years still has sharp markings that have not corroded at all.  At Ft. McNair, four bronze pieces were painted.  Two French 4-pounders that have been painted black for the past (estimated) 15 years are in excellent condition with no signs of ongoing corrosion.  The large French and English guns in front of the National War College were painted a gold color sometime within the past approx. 20 years.  They show no ongoing corrosion, except where the paint is cracked and moisture is getting in (French 24 pounder only.)

From my informal observations, painting a bronze cannon, even without cleaning it first, protects it from corrosion.

The problem with these government activiites is that neither one will admit they have a problem with their cannons, because if they did, they know they'd have to do something about it.

The Army says the green color is a pleasing patina, and hey, just look around, the other bronze monuments in DC have it too.

The Navy says the cannons they have are battle-damaged and recovered from shipwrecks, and hey, some of them are from the 1600's anyway, so they are already all messed up, why bother with doing anything now.  I don't know of a single cannon in the Navy's Leutze park that shows any battle damage.  I will look at their writeups on their website again and see which ones if any were recovered from shipwrecks.

I've now tried all the usual ways to create awareness and get something done, and both military services have officially refused to act, the way I read it.  What needs to be done now is to write a letter to your congressman.  I think from now on my time will be much better spent talking to some key folks on Capitol Hill about this (a shorter drive for me than either Ft. McNair or the Navy Yard) than trying to deal with the military departments which are both denying that there is a problem.

Here again is the Navy's official site on those cannons:

http://www.history.navy.mil/cannons/cannons.html



Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2008, 05:06:52 AM »
A little story about how things like this get done in the Navy:

During the 1980's the Navy Museum decided they'd like to have the one remaining WWI Navy 14-inch railway gun on display in the Washington Navy Yard. The only problem was that this gun was located quite a ways downriver from Washington, in Dahlgren, VA. The museum didn't have the funds required to move the 100-plus foot-long 250-ton monster nor build a proper foundation for display. The conversations went on for a year or more with no answer in sight. Dr. Oscar Fitzgerald, curator of the Navy museum called me many times during that timeframe. At the time I was an engineer in the Gun Division of the Navy's material headquarters in Washington, and Oscar called me because he knew I liked old artillery pieces. I didn't have any way to get such a project going, personally, all I did was listen to him. My one contribution was to tell him that a specially-constructed foundation would be required, since the railroad gun was far too heavy to just place on the grass alongside the smaller artifacts in the Navy Yard.

One day after a year or more of courteous but fruitless conversations, we were told that some of our funding for some other program had been redirected by the Pentagon to fund the railway gun project, and things began to happen immediately. Admiral Metcalf was then in the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, and was the admiral who picked up the phone and directed this to happen. I think at the time he was near the top of the chain of command upstream from the Naval Historical Center (can't recall his exact title.) Maybe he called or visited the admiral who was at or near the top of our office's chain of command, I'm not sure. In any case, estimates were quickly gathered and the funding sent out to a Navy activity for building the massive concrete foundation, to be topped by railroad tracks to support the gun car, and a bids were taken for a professional heavy-equipment mover to move the gun from Dahlgren to Washington. The foundation was designed and built in a few months, then a contract was awarded to a company in Richmond VA for about $50,000. to move the gun via barge, and place it on the tracked foundation. At the time, I thought the $50,000. bid was very low, and I didn't think the company could do it for that amount of money.

To minimize work disruption in the government, the movement of the gun car from the barge onto the foundation, a distance of maybe 150 feet from the river's edge, was to take place over one weekend (1986?) I attended the event for all of the two days it took, and found it fascinating. I'd never before seen how "very heavy" equipment like that was moved. I took many photos of the entire operation and if I get time, I'll some into digital form so I can post them here.

At the end of the operation, on Sunday afternoon, the foreman for the moving company, who had seen me watching them every minute for two days, presented me with the invoice for the job and asked me to sign it. I told him I was flattered but I was just an observer and had no authority to sign the paper, he'd have to find someone from the museum to sign it on Monday. I wanted to sign it just to have a story to tell the grandkids someday, but since I had never even even seen the contract they were engaged in performing, nor had any authority to sign anything for the Navy museum, it would just cause problems later.

That's how things like this ultimately get done, with one phone call from someone high enough in the Chain of Command. Of course the idea and request had to start with someone at the working level, which in this case was Dr. Oscar Fitzgerald.

The paper linked below contains photos of the surviving USN 14 in. railway gun, and also has some interesting info on blackpowder cannons such as the Dahlgren Boat Howitzer.


http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/sailor_art.htm

Offline cannonmn

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Fact-checking the Navy's letter to me
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2008, 01:56:37 PM »
A few posts back I posted a letter the Navy sent me, which said they weren't going to do anything to get the detertiorating bronze cannons out of the weather, and some rationale.

I spent this afternoon at the Washington Navy Yard and in the Navy Museum so I could check the facts they gave me.

Here are some of the points they made in their letter, and what I found:

Quote
They (the bronze cannons) do show the wear and tear of their past use and their age.  Many date back to the 1600's.  Some were damaged in battle.  Some were retrieved from sunken ships.

What I found:  One cannon dates back to the 1600's, a Spanish gun dated 1686.  There are some undated howitzers but none of them look pre-1700 to me.

I found no evidence of any battle damage on any of the bronze cannons, and I looked each one over carefully.

I examined the detailed writeups about the cannons that appear on their website, and read all of the signs carefully.  None of what I read mentioned any shipwreck recoveries.  Perhaps they have additional information they aren't revealing about these guns, I don't know.

Quote
Placing them in the National Museum of the U.S. Navy would displace other parts of our Navy's history.

I looked all around the entire indoor museum.  There's a very large open area near the front of the museum, a small portion of which would easily accommodate the guns.  The large open area is sometimes used for receptions etc. so I'll leave that one alone since they do have a use for it.

At the rear of the museum is a large area where a bathyscape takes up a lot of room on the right side facing the rear of the museum.  On the left side, there isn't much at this time, a few ship models, a few empty display cases, etc.  There are two very large replica naval guns on carriages.  I measured the area that was completely open in that part of the museum, and got 45 by 48 feet, or 2160 square feet.  That would be much more than what would be required to store all of the cannons in the park.  I guess the Navy would have to find some other place to store their empty display cases and replica cannons, so maybe that's their objection.  Anyway, go figure.  Here are some pictures of the spacious rear section of the museum.











Offline cannonmn

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Re: Washington Navy Yard cannons show severe damage from bronze disease
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2008, 11:17:37 PM »
I recently discussed bronze cannon corrosion with a museum curator who was fully convinced that the treatment required was the same as that needed for buried bronze objects which suffer from bronze disease. If the object wasn't excavated, and is only suffering from exposure, then he's making this way too hard.

I've been studying bronze cannon corrosion for the past couple of months. At first I thought the bronze cannons on outdoor display at military museums were suffering from the dreaded bronze disease, but have since found out the issue, and the solution is much simpler than that.

What's going on is acid rain corrosion, which is treated by removing the outer corrosion products (not the basic patiina) then coating the object with something that will exclude the offending agents, namely moisture and oxygen. Most museums do this with microcrystalline wax which is good stuff but not long-lasting. Gettysburg NMP has to re-treat and re-coat their bronze plaques almost annually as the elements work their way throught the wax. Another problem is that the wax is translucent, and light is a known catylist for bronze corrosion.

Several bronze cannons I've inspected which were painted either many decades ago, or within the past 20 years, show no signs of ongoing corrosion. I'm fairly certain that the five painted cannons I've inspected were not treated in any special way other than perhaps superficial cleaning before they were painted. I'm going to follow up to see if I can get any more information on those objects.

One such cannon is a Spanish 4-pounder at USNA named "San Telesforo" near Ward Hall. It has been painted with ordinary oil-based paint since at least 1969 when I first noticed it.

Four bronze guns at Ft. McNair have been painted since I first photographed them in 1983. Three show no signs of ongoing corrosion as far as one can see given the paint. One, a Keller-cast French 24-pounder in front of the National War College, also appears stable except for a small area near the breech where the paint has cracked and moisture has entered.