Reasonable way to duplicate/simulate factory loads?

[MGMorden]

Hey guys.  This might seem a stupid/simple question but I figured I'd ask .  My uncle shoots an old Remington 788 in 6mm Remington.  He loves the gun and has killed countless deer with it.  6mm Rem ammo isn't normally carried at the local department store though, and so when he has to buy more ammo (usually 1 box per year, sometimes 2) he typically has to go to the local gunstore where the prices are ridiculous.

Anyways, since I already keep a good supply of primers/powders/bullets handy, I offered to reload his brass for him if he saves it (I don't mind an excuse to do a little more reloading anyways ).  Thing is, this is purely handloading for a value standpoint.  I won't be working up loads on this gun, testing for group size, or anything like that (I'll fire a few of whatever load I settle on though to look for pressure signs).  Basically, I just want to crank out the equivalent power of factory ammo for him - as long as the group size is good enough for hunting then all's well.

Question is: what's the best powder charge to do that with?  Min listed in the manual?  Max listed?  Middle of the two?  Just looking for a general rule of thumb here.

[fastbike]

Seems to me you need to know the velocity of the factory load. After that just look for a recipe that gives about the same velocity for the chosen bullet. Should work well enough for what you want to do.

[stimpylu32]

Start at the bottom of the scale for the bullet you will be using , in most cases you will find that it will shoot at an exceptable level , if you have a Hornady Manual look at what they list as an accu. load , 9 times out of 10 its at starting or real close to it .

I never was one to buy into the faster is better hype , the extra 100 FPS doesn't mean much if you miss . 

stimpy

[Lone Star]

There is no "general rule" since each production rifle is different.  Factory ammo is loaded to near maximum pressures, so to best duplicate it would require loads near max in the load books.  The problem is, with your components you cannot assume that the max listed load in a manual is safe in your uncle's rifle.  Nor can you assume that the powder you choose will give acceptable accuracy.   You will have to work up the load - or just choose an intermediate load and take your chances that it will be accurate enough.  To me it is just not cost-effective to buy different powders and bullets (will your bullet perform like the factory bullet?) to work up a load if your uncle just buys one box of factory ammo every year.  For fun yes, to save money - no.


.

[AtlLaw]

Seems to me you need to know the velocity of the factory load.

Yup, kinda hard to duplicate the factory load velocity if you don't know what the velocity is... 

'course you could just use the published, and usually optimistic, velocity for the 6mm Rem.  But you know the published velocity will probably be +/- the actual velocity.   And if you are going to use published velocities, which will be +/_ the actual velocity, why not just use a published load that lists a velocity that appears the same as the published velocity?  Of course we also know the given velocity for any published load will be +/- the actual velocity for that load.  Well, maybe not "will be."  More likely "very possibly will be +/-."  Anyway, with all these +'s and -'s flying around we can presume that the velocity you end up with will bear little or no resemblance to the as yet unknown velocity you want!     Let's see...    Is that right?     Wait a minute... we're assuming that when the OP says "I just want to crank out the equivalent power of factory ammo" he is talking about velocity!     That may not be so!  What does he mean by "power?"

Okay!  Let's not panic here!!!  We always have the topic line... that may give us a clue to what he wants...  let's see here... topictopictopic... Oh GREAT!     The topic... "duplicate/simulate factory loads"  Does he want to "duplicate" a factory load, or "simulate" a factory load!?  And BTW!!!!  Which factory!  

Just looking for a general rule of thumb here.

Yeah, RIGHT!  You kiddin' aincha boy...  

[MGMorden]

Well, I first typed "duplicate", but that sounded a little too specific - so I added the /simulate . 

He currently shoots Remington Express 100gr Core Lockt's which he's paying $38 per box for IIRC.  My goal is/was simply a general replacement for that factory ammo, as if the brass is reloaded I figure I can bring him in at around $0.40 per round (which I'd be paying for instead of him, but I don't mind).  Basically, I'm not looking to tweak that 2.0" group down to 0.75", or go for the absolute highest velocity that I can manage to achieve out of the rifle - just an all-purpose load that I can check to make sure it's safe in the rifle (though my preference is to start in the "should be safe to begin with" zone and not ride the line to closely) and then just repeat that load as he runs out. 

Doesn't have to be precise - I just don't wanna have a factory load at 2800 fps (just a random number pulled outta nowhere), and then a handload down at 2300 fps, or up around 3200 fps - just want something close-ish to a common factory load (and understand that he's not a rifle buff - to him the FPS don't matter too much.  If next week Winchester bullets of the same weight are cheaper then he's shooting those for now - doesn't matter if the FPS varies a bit ).

[AtlLaw]

Well, I first typed "duplicate", but that sounded a little too specific - so I added the /simulate .

All righty then!     Now we got us a startin' point!  This may really turn out to be a neat think fest question!  We got us a situation, parameters, all we need to start cogitating!!!  My mind is full of "If it were me" scenarios!  I can't wait to start pontificating!!!

Unfortunately, it's almost 5 and being a poor, underpaid gov't employee my butts going home... 

[MGMorden]

Unfortunately, it's almost 5 and being a poor, underpaid gov't employee my butts going home... 

Heh - As a fellow underpaid gov't employee (who else has time to browse GB at work? ), I'm heading home too.  I'll check back in later this evening .

[stimpylu32]

Check this out , it may be just what your looking for .

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/6mm_remington/

And if not , its a place to start .

stimpy

[warrior1]

check the hodgdon load manuals on line. should give you some good ideas. start low and work up. i do not know if it is me but i always locate the sweet spot somewhere between
middle of the pack to just below max. good luck and good shootin dan

[Siskiyou]

The old Lyman Manuals included a factory duplicate load.  Inaddition the the older IMR give away data booklets gave factory duplicate loads.  I just compared some of the older data with current data and it is not lawyer proof.

[burntmuch]

Id Buy some rem corlocts same weight as what he uses. Put some together for him. See what the gun likes. Is he gonna care what powder it is. Sounds like he,ll be happy if when he shoots the hole is close to the bullseye. 2 inch group or so. I wouldnt worry about 200-300 fps, unless he,s shooting 250 or 300 yards.  If you already got powder & primers. Its gonna cost ya 25 bucks or so. To find out
Just my thoughts. Im an inch to inch &a half shooter. So if my reloads are under 2 inches. Im Usually happy with that "for hunting". Now that doesnt stop me from loading more rounds, different bullets or powders looking for that half inch group I think maybe I have low standards, but Im more of a hunter than shooter. Good luck Sorry for the rambling. Too much coffee

[Savage]

The old Lyman manuals used to give a "Factory Duplication" load. My 35+yr old Lyman manual used IMR 4064 to duplicate the factory loading for the 100gr bullet in 6mm. I won't post the load as it exceeds the max load given in current data. You might look into it if you're curious.
Savage

[AtlLaw]

(who else has time to browse GB at work?

Hee hee     how true!  but you don't gotta tell all the taxpayers our secrets! 

[Mikey]

Savage:  you're right about the older Lymna manuals - both mine have 'factory duplication' load data that should help MGMorden.

And, as a retired state worker I can affirm that continued keyboard practice while at work, especially when dealing with varied topics such as those you will find here at GB, has been proven to enhance the computer skills of employees. 

Some public agencies allow the use of computer games during free time on office computers to help improve keyboard skills for their employees.  I mean, hay, how else could I learn to tyep wiht my eeys klozed....................... Mikye..

[BBF]

since you can buy Remington bullets it solves half the problem. So you need to play with the amount or type of powders. Remington usually loads IMR types. 

You could pull the bullet from a factory case and weigh what is in it and see if that comes close to something in the loading manuals and try that out. Years ago I lucked out with a Federal Premium load using Sierra bullets and a WW powder.  The WW guide showed te same powder, load and bullet weight and it shot exactly to the same zero.

I don't know if Winchester ever produced a 6mmRem cartridge. If they did, don't expect it to hit the same place as the Rem stuff.

[Old Syko]

I don't understand the need to duplicate an inferior round, not even for reasons of frugality.  It doesn't take that much time or effort to exceed the performance of most factory ammo.

Anyone who thinks they save money by handloading will figure it out eventually.  It's one of the biggest lies out there along with the check's in the mail.

[MGMorden]

Anyone who thinks they save money by handloading will figure it out eventually.  It's one of the biggest lies out there along with the check's in the mail.

I'm sure most don't, but you certain CAN save money.  I know I do.  I don't load fancy bullets - the most expensive bullet in my supply cabinet is  probably Speer Hot-Cor's, but I mostly load Remington Core Locts, Winchester's, etc.  For my 9mm Handguns I load Rainier copper-plated lead bullets that I bought for a deal in quantity (I ordered 3000 of them for just under $100).  For a plinking load I generally set that on top of light charge of Hodgdon TiteGroup.  With the loads I do there I can get almost 1500 rounds out of 1lb of powder. 

So just to take 9mm as an example per shot:

Brass: Free (I have tons of it left over - if I run out there's plenty of range pickup available)
Bullet: $0.03
Powder: $0.02
Primer: $0.04
Total per shot: $0.09

So for 100 rounds I'm looking at $9.00.  At Wal-mart 100 rounds of 9mm is around $18 right now.  So half-cost on 9mm which is some of the cheapest factory ammunition you'll find.

Sure I COULD spend a lot more money, but for most of my rifles, I don't.   Reloading just allows me to shoot more as well as shoot some things that aren't reasonable at gunstore prices.  .257 Roberts is $26 per box at the gunstore I go to (or was - probably higher now) - about $1.30 per round.  I can reload it with virgin brass using Core Lockts for $0.83 per round the first time, and $0.41 per round for subsequent loadings. 

The only way to argue it more expensive it to use premium components (but then factory ammo with premium components is very expensive too), or by factoring in opportunity cost for your own time, but as I have extra time to spare (and I enjoy loading anyways), then that's not really a factor for me .

As I hinted at earlier, my uncle expects a shiny thing to put into the rifle, point at deer, go bang, and deer falls over dead.  MOA, FPS, or other such factors are things he couldn't care one bit about. 

At any rate, thanks for the suggestion on the Lyman manuals guys .  That's pretty much what I'm looking for. 

[Graybeard]

In the first place you need to stop operating under false assumptions. Geez he shoots one or two boxes of shell a year and needs to reload to SAVE MONEY? Give me a break.

You just DO NOT operate the way you plan to operate, well not iffen yer smart anyway. If you're gonna reload for a rifle you must work up a load for it if you have any reasonable expectations of the ammo working even half way effectively in it.

For the most part to match factory velocity you'll have to be at or darn near the book max but unless you've run the factory ammo across a chrono you have no clue where to shoot for velocity wise in your reloads. Then you'll need to run the reloads across a chrono also to get a reasonable match. But even that means little in that the ammo you craft might shoot MOA or it might shoot more like 10 MOA in his rifle. Again only by working up a load specifically for the rifle will get get ammo that functions well and reasonably approaches the velocity and accuracy he is getting.

The realistic option is to just keep doing as he is doing and buy factory ammo. If the price of a couple boxes of ammo a year is too much then I suggest he find a new hobby.

[MGMorden]

To be fair, hunting isn't a hobby for him - it's a way to put extra meat in the freezer.  Given that his wife/my aunt was in the hospital for nearly 10 months a couple years back, he's amassed enough medical bills that he'll never pay them all, and money's pretty tight (probably why he's still hunting with this same oddball-chambered rifle that he bought used back in the 70's when he was a teenager).

Alas, I've apparently offended the reloading gods for not wanting to produce a single hunting load as if I were writing my college thesis.  Gone are the days when as long as you played it safe and didn't stray outside of listed loads everything was fine.  My only guess is that Federal, Remington, and Winchester are loading their rounds on top of Hodgdon Pixie Dust (TM) so that it shoots reasonably, if not optimally, out of just about any rifle you shot the stuff through.  I pitty the poor guy who wanders in here using one of those regular Lee Loader kits.

In any event, thanks for the advice that was offered.  Later guys.

[Graybeard]

I see you continue to be the ass you were since your first post here.

If you're so worried about the small expense of a few bucks for him why not just buy him a couple boxes of ammo of the type you already know works well for him.

Making safe ammo is not difficult making ammo that duplicates factory specs and shoots accurately in his rifle requires loads to be developed for it. If all you want is ammo to go bang then fine just pick a load and give him the ammo. Don't expect it to duplicate even remotely the performance or accuracy of factory loads.

[B. Miville]

My only guess is that Federal, Remington, and Winchester are loading their rounds on top of Hodgdon Pixie Dust (TM) so that it shoots reasonably, if not optimally, out of just about any rifle you shot the stuff

Actually, the ammunition manufacturers are lucky in that they can have special powders made to their specs (a benifit of having the purchasing power to buy hundreds of pounds of powder at any given time).  This is why you see factory rounds like the .204 Ruger pumping out such high velocities that are tough (impossible???) to reach with powders and components available to the average reloader.  Same goes for the "Light Magnum" rounds Hornady produces.  But you also do have to realize that when a company dcides to produce a new round, they don't slap power into a case and call it good.  Indeed, many many hours are spent chucking rounds down range in an effort to produce safe, reliable and consitent loadings.

Brian

P.S. My name is Brian, and I use Lee loading equipment 

[stimpylu32]

Brian

Your safe here , I'm a Lee guy too  and your right about buying powder by the truck load , if I would buy that much do you think they would do the load work up for me ? 

stimpy

[Old Syko]

P.S. My name is Brian, and I use Lee loading equipment 

I got a kick out of this.     Sounds like an introduction for a Lee Anonymous meeting.  Maybe an intervention is in order?

I use surplus and pulldown powder, surplus and overrun bullets, cast my own bullets for many calibers with no cost for lead, buy in bulk to get a better price and yet MGMorden has shown me the error of my ways.  I now realize it is totally safe to just pull data out of thin air and build an operational round.  How wrong we have all been!    With the OPs given beliefs, uncle may end up spending time in the hospital with auntie.

[MGMorden]

I now realize it is totally safe to just pull data out of thin air and build an operational round.

I told myself I was going to stay out of this thread at this point, but where did I EVER suggest pulling data out of thin air?  I have never once exceeded published data on any reload I've ever done (hell I generally don't even like loading at near the never exceed charge listed in the manual).  I also explicitly stated that I would be checking ANY load I developed for that rifle to verify that it was safe.

[AtlLaw]

Okay MGM, don't get mad.     You are a reloader, you had to know how far out your question was for people who live by .1 gr. or .001 inch!     How do I-know-you-know?  Look at your first sentence!

Hey guys.  This might seem a stupid/simple question but I figured I'd ask .\

As my ol' daddy used to say, " If you gonna swing a stick at a hornet's nest, don't holler if'n you get stung!"   

Anyway, I'm back on the county clock so I can take time to cogitate on this matter further...Okay, parameters.  From your post:  2 inch groups are acceptable; velocity +/- 400/500 fps off factory is excessive.  Simple enough.  The only real problems are the unknowns; the main 2 being the velocity and accuracy level of the factory loads.  We can assume the factory load in question is the Remington since the 100 gr. Core Lokt is the projectile of choice.

Now, based on these parameters and assumptions, as I see it, you have 2 avenues with which to approach the problem.  And note, all the other tidbits that have been posted by other members are not to be forgotton here.  Like trying to duplicate factory claimed velocity!  Ever try to get 2920 fps outa 150 gr. 30/06 load?  Oh you can do it, but it's much to much throttle for me!   

1)  Look up the claimed velocity of the Remington factory ammo then find a load in a manual that generally meets that velocity and use that load.  Simple, no fuss, no muss, no bother...  And something any dedicated reloader is about as likely to do as I am likely to take up an "alternate" life style!     This method gives you bullets that go bang.  They may or may not fall within your parameters but will almost surely be accurate enough to kill a deer.  It doesn't sound like your Uncle is concerned with long range (or even 200 yd) shooting.  Load 'em up, sight the rifle in and give it to Unc.

But you specifically wanted to "duplicate/simulate" factory loads.  With method #1 you got no idea what you want or what you got!     Soooooo,

2)  Buy a box of Rem Core Lokts.  Shoot groups with them and come up with an average velocity and group size.  This is your control uh,group so to speak.     I know, to small a sample, blah blah blah, give me a break!     Then pick a load from the manual that approximates your KNOWN objective velocity and give it a shot.    By eliminating two of the unknowns you have, theoretically, doubled your chances of initially selecting a load that falls within your parameters.  Load 'em up, sight the rifle in and give it to Unc. 

This is basically the method I'm using this year with a couple of 30/30 lever guns I bought.  I don't expect much, iron sights, old eyes and all that, but I plan to use them early in the season when the So. GA brush is still thick and shots short.  Anyway, I  picked a starting load with BL(C)-2, just wanted to try that powder out, and 170 gr. Core Lokts and used that to sight in the aperture sights I put on one rifle.  I have no idea what the velocity is, not believing manuals, but the load seems very mild and clusters in nice 2 - 3 inch groups at 100, so I would not hesitate to hunt with that load if I wanted to stop there.  Of course I don't and won't!!

Did I forget anything?

[MGMorden]

Thanks AtLaw.  I'll admit that I'm still not nearly as experienced a reloader as many here (which is why I come for advice).  I appreciate your response and will start to tackle the problem from that angle.

I too don't really trust the published velocities in a manual, nor on the side of a box of factory ammo, and I don't (yet) own a chronograph.  My basic goal was just to find a good target to shoot for (no pun intended).  Is starting data woefully underpowered compared to factory loads?  Is max data generally close to factory or well above it?  Is factory generally 30% of the way between or 80%?  Does it vary by load manual and if so what is a good one to look at? Or is there not even enough consistency to generate a rule of thumb. 

That's the type of information I was looking for.  I have no problem checking progressively increasing charges up to that point to verify their safety - I just don't consider it a worthwhile project if have to test 2 dozen different powders and 6 kinds of bullets to find a sweet spot.

I always appreciate constructive criticism, I just take offense (and to my fault, have a short temper) when it's implied that I'm being unsafe or as if I've offended someone for asking a mere question.

Thanks to all who responded.

PS to earlier posters. I use a lot of Lee stuff too.  For the price their stuff is hard to beat.  My presses, scale, powder dispenser, and 2 of my dies sets are all Lee.  The only reason I don't buy their die sets anymore is because I don't like their locking rings, so buying Lee dies +3 locking rings from another manufacturer wasn't turning out to be economical, so these days it's mostly Hornady or RCBS dies for me (used when I can find them).

[AtlLaw]

I use a lot of Lee stuff too.  ...  My presses, scale, powder dispenser, and 2 of my dies sets are all Lee.

Well, that explains a lot!  Sorry, there's obviously no help for you... 

published velocities in a manual,

I look at them with a jaundiced eye my own self!  In my experience they tend to be a little optimistic.  However, I think you can get a fair estimate of what your velocity based on published data with a little interpolation.  If I'm doing what I did for the 30/30, grab a powder and bullet and pick a starting charge from a table, I review all the sources I have available and compare particulars with the rifle and circumstances I will be using.  i.e. velocity from a 24 in barrel vs. the 20 inch I will be using, and adjust the published velocity accordingly.  I also subscribe to Handloaders on-line service which gives me a bunch of loads and their actual velocities shot by whom ever.  But the end result is still just a rough guess.

and I don't (yet) own a chronograph.

You are missing one of the great joys of life!     You can still work up great, accurate handloads without one, but they make the process more interesting.  I am now beside myself with desire for another instrument that is, for the moment, unavailable to the average handloader... what I call the PPMD (Personal Pressure Measuring Device).   

Is starting data woefully underpowered compared to factory loads?

Okay now, you got the "liability warning device" going off in my head!     What is "underpowered" is a pretty subjective question.  Especially when we have no idea what the power level is of either load.  I would imagine the starting loads are capable of killing a deer even if they do develop a bunch LESS velocity/energy then a factory load.

Is max data generally close to factory or well above it?

I think that most factory ammo is pretty good stuff nowadays.  In most cases that is.  Maybe even hard to beat velocity and accuracy wise.  Especially in the velocity arena when discussing the "Light Magnum" type loads. 

Is factory generally 30% of the way between or 80%?

I don't think there is a general assumption to be made in this regard.  At least I wouldn't want to make one.  If I were to take a factory round, come up with an average velocity, then take a handload and come up an average velocity for that handload I could say, generally, what % one was of the other for that factory round (from that lot number) as compared to that handload (using that powder lot number, primer and case) only.

In short, it seems you are looking for hard and fast assumptions you can make in areas where there are none to be made.  Maybe even in areas where it would not be SAFE to attempt to make them! 

Does it vary by load manual and if so what is a good one to look at?

Usually; again a generality.  I have Nosler, Sierra, Speer and Lyman manuals plus whatever booklets different powder manufacturers put out.  I also use the aforementioned on-line site a lot.

Or is there not even enough consistency to generate a rule of thumb.

BINGO!!!    Well, consistency may not be the correct word since that's what most handloaders strive for!  The only good rule of thumb is the original one:  You can't beat you wife with a stick larger then the circumference of your thumb.!   

I have no problem checking progressively increasing charges up to that point to verify their safety

That's it, start low and work up... slowly!

I just don't consider it a worthwhile project if have to test 2 dozen different powders and 6 kinds of bullets to find a sweet spot.

I usually just pick a powder based on whatever reason is important to me at the time.  Tim had a good 338/06 load using BL(C)-2 so I got some and naturally want to try it in other applications; I've used a lot of IMR's and now want to try the reportedly more temperature insensitive H's;  I got a good deal on whatever, now I have to find a use for it; If I try it and Don't like it, I'll try something else.  Matter of fact, if I try it and like it I'll try something else!   

Bullets are easy.  Since I guess the remainder of my hunting will be limited to our deer, I have settled on and routinely use Rem Core Lokts.

(and to my fault, have a short temper)

I always thought I was a violent person by nature... woulda made a great "berserker" in the middle ages.  Thankfully I found out I was just psychotic with a chemical imbalance.  And they got drugs for that!   

[Siskiyou]

What is a factory duplicate load?  Will you be happy with a factory duplicate load?

Older published data for factory loads were based on a 26-inch test barrel, fired under idea test conditions.  What the user achieves out of a 22-inch or short barrel most likely will be less.  If the shooter has a load, which he has been success with and he wants to duplicate it, he must have a benchmark if duplication is the goal.  A Chrony is a step on identifying the bench mark. 

A few lessons learned from the Chrony.  My Savage .270 Winchester barrel is 30 feet faster, then my Remington 700, .270 Winchester barrel.

150-grain Remington C-L loads in my Remington 700 comes closer to achieving published velocity then Hornady, Winchester, and Federal basic off the shelf 150-grain ammunition. 

Years ago I bought a number of boxes of .270 WW 150-grain Power Points, I was disappointed with the accuracy in a M760, so I was using them for prelimnary sighting a scope of the M700.  I found them to be very accurate in the M700 so I am now hoarding them for hunting.  Back in the days before low cost chronographs came on the market this load was advertised at 2900 feet per second at the muzzle.  Truth by Chrony almost soured the cream. This load achieved 2724 fps fifteen feet from the muzzle at 6700-foot elevation; as I recall the temperature was around 75°.  Barrel length is 22-inches.  Results in the field by my brother and myself have been satisfying.  A few years ago when bulk bullet were cheap my brother purchased a 1000 of them.

At the same location the Hornady factory load gave me 2809 out of the Savage barrel.  The factory 150-grain Remington exceeded 2800 feet per second.     

My long time favorite H4831 load pushing a 150-grain Hornady gave me 2893 fps at the same elevation from the Savage barrel. 

When firing 150-grain Remington, and Winchester loads from a .300 Savage 24-inch barrel over the Chrony I found the velocity to be about 90 fps under the advertised velocity.

I have to disagree that factory loads are loaded close to maximum.  Factory loads are expected to perform in a wide range of atmospheric conditions, and different elevations. I have tested my loads in the low 90’s and sub freezing temperatures without a problem.

A friend with her 6mm Remington, with a short barrel has proven the rifle loaded with 100-grain Remington C-L is very effective on deer.  I rather doubt that she has ever encountered a chronograph.  If her husband put it under her nose she may have read a ballistic chart.  Her bottomline is that she is successful with that rifle.  If I loaded a hundred Remington bullets in her empty cases she would be happy as long as they were on target.

[B. Miville]

I have to disagree that factory loads are loaded close to maximum. 

I would agree with you.  Just because SAAMI sets a pressure standardization for any given cartridge I don't think the manufacturers necessarily decide they will throttle the pressure to the set max to see how fast a cartridge can go.  Indeed it comes back to my previous post about the manufacturers having access to powders of their spces.  My guess they care more about reaching set velocity standards than they do trying to hit max ressure......and lord knows, in this day and age of "sue happy" societies, my guess is the manufacturers will gladly meet velocity standards with a few thousand PSI/CUP less rather than max it out and try and exceed velocity by a measly 100 or 200 fps.

Brian

P.S. I keep checking out them shiny Dillon presses.  I tell myself when my other press/es die I will get a Dillon......but my Lee stuff keeps chugging along (so I guess it is going to be a looooong time before I need a newone  )