Author Topic: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN  (Read 10075 times)

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Offline carronader

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Cairo Gunboat in Memphis, TN
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2009, 10:11:12 AM »
 Ok Ok I won't mention 'that'  colour again,far be it from me to criticise the daily ration of pomade,rose water and clean drawers either,issued to American gun crews.
 On another issue,the captured 'British' gun would be more truthfully termed English,we(the Scottish)too often get associated with our neighbours over the border only in the negative............and of course on the positive it's always the English.Our failings in the naval sense are widely known,our expeditions usually resulted in half a dozen drunken circuits of Ireland before having to return to port to reprovision on the haggis.a man can't have a proper drink on an empty stomach.
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline Double D

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Cairo Gunboat in Memphis, TN
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2009, 10:17:45 AM »
I just spoke with MS. Elizabeth Joyner at Vicksburg Battlefield. She has confirmed that two of three 42 Pounders on the Cairo, had screw elevators.  She did not check the records on the 4th 42 PDR gun as she didn't have them at hand.  Ms.  Joyner is going to send me some information on the 42 PDRs.  She was familiar with William Green drawings.  She said she thought they had some Green drawings on file that were used during restoration projects.  We talked about the fact Green referred to the 42 PDRs as 1841 pattern when the they are 1840 pattern.  She specualted that perhaps the one Green measured was made in 1841 and that is where he came up with M-1841.

Now I sit here waiting for the email with a couple of pictures, so I can send her my mailing address for a whole packet on the 42 PDR's. Is it Christmas yet?

She did tell me an interesting piece of information, that I didn't know, but don't realy find surprising.  Some of the guns on the Cairo were mounted on field carriages.


Offline Double D

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Cairo Gunboat in Memphis, TN
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2009, 10:20:23 AM »
Nope, no email yet.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Cairo Gunboat in Memphis, TN
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2009, 01:50:14 PM »
the color it self makes me quesy....as it brings back some memories ...of leaving Purto Rico......on the LPD 12 and ......slo gin fizzes  and mad navy guys ....that ship did have a cannon ..... ;D
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Double D

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Cairo Gunboat in Memphis, TN
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2009, 01:52:06 PM »
Information from
Elizabeth H. Joyner
Museum Curator
Vicksburg National Military Park

Good Afternoon!
Below, please find the information taken from the catalog records for the three 42-PDRs found aboard Cairo as-well-as the information regarding the original gun carriage featuring the screw elevation system. As you can see below, I did not find a gun manufactured in 1840 or 1841. The closest to that is 1837. The majority of the guns aboard Cairo were manufactured in 1845. The 30-PDR Naval Parrott Rifle positioned in the port stern was manufactured in 1862.

Catalog # VICKC 2134 (Carriage)

Wood (white oak) with wood and iron fixtures (painted black); screw elevation system.  

LxWxH (excluding wheels): 1.867 m x978 mm x .686 mm.  Radius of wheels: 102 mm.  Slightly checked.  Right front wheel missing.  Right key missing from chain.  Screw handle missing.  Salvaged with USS Cairo. Was originally located in the U.S.S. Cairo port bow position.

Catalog # VICKC 2119 (Tube) 42-PDR

Iron. Rifle.  Marks:  right trunnion: K & W/F.P.F.  Right rim base: 312.  Left trunnion: 1856.  Base of breech: 8359.  Muzzle face:  No.28/B.H.  Top, between trunnions: U.S.  Pitted.  History:  salvaged with U.S.S. Cairo; was port bow gun.

Catalog # VICKC 2120 (Tube) 42-PDR

Iron. Rifle.  Marks:  right trunnion: K & W/F.P.F.  Right rim base: 324.  Left trunnion: 1856.  Base of breech: 8394.  Muzzle face:  No.20/B.H. top, between trunnions: U.S.  Pitted.  History:  salvaged with U.S.S. Cairo; was starboard gun.

Catalog # VICKC 2121 (tube) 42-PDR

Iron. Rifle.  Marks:  right trunnion: J.M./C.F.  Left trunnion: 1837.  Base of breech: 8620.  Muzzle face:  No.26.   Top, between trunnions: U.S.  Pitted.  History:  salvaged with U.S.S. Cairo; was #1 starboard gun.

 Ms. Joyner did tell me on the phone that three 42 PDRS were originally were smooth bores.


Offline RocklockI

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Cairo Gunboat in Memphis, TN
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2009, 03:40:47 PM »
So were the 42lbs that were bored and rifled ? did they end up at 42 lbs rifled or 84ish pounds rifled .

Two appear to have been made in 1856 ? I realize they would have been of an earlier pattern .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Double D

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Cairo Gunboat in Memphis, TN
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2009, 03:47:52 PM »
Humm, now doubting myself.  Did she say she didn't have records on the 4th gun or did she say she didn't have record of a 4th gun.


Offline RocklockI

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Cairo Gunboat in Memphis, TN
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2009, 03:50:48 PM »
Freshed and rifled , they could have started as 18 lbers...? Not sure what pattern they could have been but I know which they were not ...1839 siege ....
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2009, 05:26:08 PM »
     Maybe this will clarify things a bit.  Our research on the Cairo's armament reveals that there were only 3, not four rifled 42 pdrs on board or you could say 3, 84 pdr. Army conversion rifles.  With 12 guns planned for each of the seven gun boats of this type built by Eads, the National List of Surviving Civil War Artillery lists only 11 existing today, as being found onboard the Cairo when she was raised in the 1960s.  One rifled Army 42 pdr. is missing, the port, no. 1 broadside gun.  That's why the lady's records are incomplete.
We made an armament diagram so everyone could see what was onboard when this vessel was raised and where it was found.

     Gary, the ones cast in 1856 were of a later pattern, 1845.  The one cast in 1837 was a pattern 1831 gun before being rifled with the James System rifling, which, in this 7" bore dia. was 9 groove rifling with a right hand twist.  They were all rifled this way.  After rifling they ended up as 84 pounder Army Conversion Rifles, because the projectile was normally "around" 84 lbs.  None of these were banded which indicates early war conversion, not production.

The 8s represent 8" navy chambered cannon of 63 cwt; the 32s represent navy 32 pdr. chambered cannon of 42 cwt;  the 4.2 is the 30 pdr. Parrott Rifle, stern mounted.




FYI,

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2009, 02:25:53 AM »
So the obvious question...where in relationship to the missing gun did the torpedo (mine) explode?

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2009, 02:46:34 AM »
     Somebody with a lot more time to delve into it than we do is going to take that question up.  Knowing as we do that the electrically command detonated mine, (torpedo in 1862), caused no loss of life, just simply sunk the vessel close to shore in approx. 16 feet of Yazoo River water and mud, (memory here, could be a bit different), it must have blown a hole in her bottom, but may not have been a large enough explosion to disrupt the gun deck at all.  You really need a book on the raising of this vessel to answer this.  Maybe a call to Ms.Joyner would be helpful in this regard.

Good luck,

M&T
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2009, 02:45:52 PM »
Here is the response I got from Ms Joyner on the subject of the missing 42  PDRthis morning.

Quote
I'm not aware of another 42-PDR. The only gun that was not found with Cairo was the 12-PDR Boat Howitzer which had been removed prior to her sinking. It had been positioned on the hurricane deck. We don't know what happened to that gun after it was removed.
 
I may have found the source of the confusion over the model 1841 gun. In looking over material to mail to you, I found a statistical error on one of the bulletins listing one of the 42-PDR's as an 1841 model. As you saw in the information sent yesterday, two of the guns were manufactured in 1856 and one in 1837.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2009, 03:31:44 PM »


Pink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   only in America  :o

That is what happens to red paint bleached in the sunshine and reflecting an electronic flash.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Double D

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2009, 05:01:18 PM »
Broken pole.

If you go by the Cairo, how about some pictures of screw elevators and cap square key chains and how they attach or mount on the 42 PDR..  I also could also use some pictures of how the rope tackle attaches to the  bulkhead.

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2009, 01:50:38 AM »
The carriages are more red than pink. Here is an outside view of that display.


Max

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2009, 03:21:58 AM »
I stand by my guns.......they're PINK!  Blue for boys  Pink for girlies. Even the English know that.Pic from Royal Horse Artillery  the most girlie of English (alleged British) regiments. Did your Mom not warn you about biting hard on a No.2 Cod hook. ;D
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline brokenpole

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2009, 04:11:51 AM »
Broken pole.

If you go by the Cairo, how about some pictures of screw elevators and cap square key chains and how they attach or mount on the 42 PDR..  I also could also use some pictures of how the rope tackle attaches to the  bulkhead.

Leaving to head over there in just a bit.  I don't remeber them having any of the ropes attached to the guns they presently have on the gun deck.  I will try and ask if any of the guns are actual peices from the Cairo and focus on those.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2009, 08:13:25 AM »
The carriages that are now seen in the outdoor museum display of the original fabric of the U.S.S. Cairo are reproductions; there is one original carriage on display in the indoor museum.


U.S.S. CAIRO
VICKSBURG NATIONAL
MILITARY PARK
Vicksburg, Mississippi, U.S.A.
By Elizabeth Joyner

“CIVILWAR CANNON CARRIAGES REMOVED FROM U.S.S. CAIRO”

In an ongoing effort to preserve and protect the original
wooden naval gun carriages recovered in the 1960s
with the ironclad U.S.S. CAIRO, the gun carriages
have been removed from exhibit and replaced with
historically accurate reproduction carriages that will better
withstand the long, hot Mississippi summers.
One original carriage will be placed inside of the adjacent
CAIRO Museum, offering visitors a glimpse of an original.
Other carriages have been placed in a more suitable climate
that will be more conducive to their preservation and
protection.
The U.S.S. CAIRO was one of seven ironclad gunboats
named for cities along the upper Mississippi and Ohio
rivers during the American Civil War (1861-1865). These
formidable vessels were designed and built specifically for
river navigation. Their objective was to regain control of
the Mississippi River for the Union.
Commissioned in January 1862, CAIRO saw only limited
action until 12 December 1862, when the CAIRO traveled
with a small flotilla up the Yazoo River to clear the channel
of torpedoes (mines). At a point seven miles north of
Vicksburg, Mississippi, CAIRO was rocked by two
explosions in quick succession that tore huge holes in her
hull. The gunboat sank in 12 minutes with no loss of life.
CAIRO became the first vessel in history to be sunk by an
electrically-detonated mine.
Vicksburg National Military Park personnel worked in
conjunction with Historic Preservation Training Center
personnel from Frederick, Maryland, U.S.A. The crew
from the H.P.T.C. worked on reproducing the original
carriages for over a year before any on-site work was
begun. H.P.T.C. Exhibit Specialist Dean Wigfield stated
that all reproductions were constructed from the same types
of materials as were used to manufacture the originals and
a Pennsylvania blacksmith was contracted to re-create the
hardware.
Department of Ordnance Plans dating to 1851 were
obtained for use during the construction phase but proved
to be imprecise. Architects also found precise
measurements impossible to make with the cannon tubes
still in place. The first carriage put in place had to be
tweaked slightly on the spot, but ended up fitting fine
according to Wigfield. “The heaviest of the cannon weighs
8,200 pounds,” Wigfield said.
The carriages had been exhibited outdoors on board
CAIRO since 1984. Although the vessel is exhibited
beneath a canopy, time and the elements had begun to take
their toll on these unique carriages. As a segment of this
project, all original carriages received basic conservation
care to aid in their long term preservation. The carriage
removal phase of the project began 27 February 27 and
continued through 9 March 2006.


The following document relates a sad tale that goes a long way in proving the veracity of the old adage: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

It's on microfilm, so the qualities not the best, but if you scroll to near the end (gun carriages and tubes), there are drawings of carriages that show the cap-square key chain's placement on the cheek.

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/vick/cairo_hsr.pdf
 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2009, 08:53:22 AM »
Boomj,

Thanks for that information.  The chain location the drawing is similar to the the Green drawing.  I would like to see original set up to compare to the Green drawing.  So far every thing else has been the same, I have no reason to doubt this.

Something very interesting jumped right out at me!  All guns except the Parrot are noted as "muzzle swell top filed to form front sight blade."

So now I need a picture of the front sight blade. Sounds like justification buy a new Nicholson mill.

I also need to know what the rear sight looked like.




Offline brokenpole

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2009, 11:16:26 AM »
Okay here ya go.

First of all let me thank my wife.  I am handicapped and the work to take these pics was done by my wife.  She loves cannons as much as I do.  Heck of a lady.

I place the pictures in an.  There are like 39 in all.  The wife took pics of whatever she thought you would like to see.  This includes the boillers.  I left those out.  If you want to see them let me know.

Here is the link to the album.

http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/brokenpole/Cairo/


There was one pic that I wanted to post here.  According to the plaques placed around the ship all the guns aboard were originals from the Cairo.  Only the carriages are reproduction (as previously stated).

According to seacoast there was a 42 pounder that went missing.  Port side #4.  That is not far from the area where the mine exploded.  Don't know if that is what caused the loss.

But it makes no sense that all guns aboard are from the Cairo (and I didn't cound them) if we know one was missing.

The pic below is of the carriage that is orginal that is inside the museum.  It states that the gun that is missing is a 32 pounder.

Any way...need more from the Cairo just let me know.








Offline Double D

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2009, 12:19:42 PM »
Your wife did good work and she was able to get some very good pictures of what I was looking for. Thank her for me.  I do hope you had a wonderful outing.

Your pictures show what wonderful condition the guns are in.  Amazing spending all those years in the river and to be in such good shape.

I have to make a trip down there.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2009, 01:59:02 PM »
     We agree with Double D wholeheartedly, these are very fine photos indeed, lots of detail and these photos and documentation provided by Boom J combined to bust an assumption by Seacoastartillery.  We assumed that there was a missing gun on the port broadside and that was a 42 Pdr. Army conversion rifle.  According to information located on page 43 of 151 in Boom J's document link, http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/vick/cairo_hsr.pdf, there were 6,  32 pdrs. on the Cairo, not 5 as we had incorrectly assumed.  And, thanks to brokenpoles wife's excellent and complete photography, we find that there is no missing cannon in the No. 1 Port Broadside artillery position in the casemate, nor is there any missing cannon in any position on this Vicksburg historical display.  Also, the excellent photos show that both of the stern guns are there as well, a port mounted 4.2" Navy Parrott rifle and a starboard side 32 pdr.

     This site is definitely on our itinerary for our next trip to the South, probably next year sometime.  Ours thanks for excellent pictures and great documentation and now we know what the carriage cheek hardware for the breeching looks like, again, not what we assumed.  Just goes to show why they say, "Never assume anything, because it makes an a_ _ out of you and me".  We stand corrected!

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

The revised Cairo armament diagram.  The 12 pdr. boat howitzer was removed in November of 1862 just before the vessel was sunk.

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2009, 03:02:30 PM »
For those of you looking for the carriage and tube drawings amidst the vast pdf, they are on page 116 (pdf numbering system.)
GG
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--Winston Churchill

Offline brokenpole

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2009, 03:16:16 PM »
The wife said to tell ya'll thank you.  She had a good time taking them.

There is a model at the museum that depicts the rigging of the guns but the picture we had didn't get enough detail.  They don't like flash photos in the building. May have to give that another shot sometime.  Only problem is that is probably someone's "best guess" and may not be any more correct.

If ya'll decide to come to Vicksburg let us know.  We can meet ya for a drink or diner.

Offline Double D

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2009, 04:03:14 PM »
The trick to indoor no flash photo's with a digital camera is turn the flash off, mount the camera on a tripod and set the camera on auto. A tripod is a good tool for digital photography. 

Don't worry about the rigging.  I am going to do my own, to fit my situation.

The one thing I will ask next time you are by thee,  to try and get some pictures of the filed in front sight.  I am going to have find out what they used as a rear sight.  I wonder if they used a part of the lock as a rear sight?



Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2009, 05:25:46 PM »
     Double D,   The front and rear sights are fairly difficult to find photos of anywhere.  One of the best we have found is this one used in the recent contest about historical photos.  Confederate and Federal Naval forces used the same type of sights.  A simple notch at the top of the scaled slider was used for sighting.  The front sight view is VERY rare and is shown in only one book we know of.  Your front sight is different, we know.

FYI

Tracy and Mike


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2009, 06:13:47 PM »
Actually what I am referring to is the notes on markings found in appendix F of the report BoomJ linked for us.





The notes say all Cairo guns except the Parrot Rifle have "muzzle swell top filed to form front sight blade."



Offline carronader

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2009, 11:58:47 PM »
 DD,
      The dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships lists the Cairo as carrying 4x42pdr.  3x8inch and 6x32pdr.  If you don't have this in your information sources you maybe find it worthwhile. 
  http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/c1/cairo.htm
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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2009, 03:20:37 AM »
Yes,  we are aware that some sources list it as having 4 42 Pounders.  But as we have just found out the Official records and the actual shipboard count show it only had 3 42 PDR's.

Offline brokenpole

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Re: Replica, "City Class", Federal Gunboat, Cairo in Memphis, TN
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2009, 01:41:27 PM »
Hi guys, I am Smokinbeaver, Brokenpole's wife that took the pictures on the Cairo. Some of the cannons had the "elevation screw" to raise and lower the back of the cannon, and some had a wooden wedge like block there with no screw. I was wondering what that was for, but guess it was to hold the barrel in place. It shows in some of the pictures of the cannon taken from the inside of the ship. Just wondered if it was there because the screw was missing. Those carriages were not origional as you can tell.

Sharon
smokinbeaver