Author Topic: Who really invented the first revolver?  (Read 3074 times)

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Offline Squire Robin

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2008, 04:18:58 AM »
I think that the designer of these models while very bold and imaginative in his thinking outside the box

Unlikely, he was a lawyer and journalist by the name of Henry Clay Pate.

OTOH, maybe lawyers and journalists were different back then :D

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2008, 04:37:35 AM »
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OTOH, maybe lawyers and journalists were different back then :D

   No, there have to be some constants in life and I think laywers and journalists are probably two of them.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2008, 07:27:54 AM »
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I didn't know about the experimental gun at the Petersburg Museum, I'm going to surf the net a bit to see if I can find anything, I'd love to see a pic of a full size version of something similar to these models;
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Unlikely, he was a lawyer and journalist by the name of Henry Clay Pate.

   Squire, I did ( sort of ) know about H.C. Pate's revolving cannon, in fact I found out about Pate's gun when I was looking for documentation on John Cochran for this thread and this thread isn't all that old, which really has me worrying about the condition of my short term memory. It wasn't until I came back and was looking at your posts for a second time that Pate's name began to tickle some synapse deep in my gray matter ( this isn't good ).

I first came across Pate's name on a good research document: " Federal and Confederate Manufacturers " and there are two references to him. I printed the document and it has 28 pages.
Henry Clay Pate: Ptersburg, VA., lawyer said to be designer of 3.13-inch Pate, Tappey and Lumsden Revolving Cannon.

Tappey and Lumsden: Petersburg, VA., firm. Producer of revolving cannon designed by Henry Clay Pate ( q.v. ). The Petersburg Express of May 11, 1861, noted that Tappey & Lumsden had completed a five-shot cannon of 3.13-inch caliber weighing 300 pounds. It fired a four pound ball 1900 yards. A pair of these weapons was turned out. One burst during tests and the other was set aside for the duration of the war. It survives today at Petersburg, VA.

Squire, does the Ordnance Soc. newsletter contain a photo or drawing of this gun? I'd be very curious to see how this gun compares to J. Cochran's models in appearance.

www.civilwarartillery.com/manufacturers.htm
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2008, 10:52:26 AM »
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2008, 12:32:52 PM »
how about sealing the chambers with grease as you do with an percusion revolver ??
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2008, 01:54:23 PM »
   Dan, That's how I prevent a chain-fire from happening on my .44 cal. cap & ball revolver, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work on a larger scale gun.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2008, 02:42:48 PM »
Depending on how large the charge would be, the shot would likely be just inside the edge of the chamber, which would mean it had very little velocity while entering the barrel and be much more likely to allow a small amount of misalignment without encountering difficulties, so to speak.  If I were forced to use this, I would sponge the first chamber as it was rotated out of battery, and load the last chamber, presumably with combined charge, sabot and shot, then rotate into battery and fire.  There would never be two loaded chambers at one time.  Since sponging the bore would be impractical, I would cool it from the outside with water soaked towels or something similar.

For weight reduction, I would cut away much of the material between chambers in the turret, like a fluted cylinder.  Also, I believe the turret could be made smaller; there is no need for six chambers, three or four would be adequate.  You couldn't safely fire this thing with all the chambers in some state of loadedness.  Recoil and leakage would both cause serious problems.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2008, 03:14:04 PM »
but its an very interesting idea
it would be nice to try an small scale build of this , lets say 0,5 inch bore .
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2008, 05:16:49 AM »
 
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If I were forced to use this

   George, this is without question the one and only way that I would ever be a cannoneer on this gun's crew and that's if I were forced to by the gunner holding his side-arm to my head. On a purely academic level I agree that the cylinder could be made a lot lighter by reducing the chambers to three or four and skeletonizing it like the Paris model's cylinder. As to the suggestion of not having all the chambers loaded ( for safety reasons ),  I still think that this would defeat Cochran's main reason for designing these guns in the first place; to be able to fire a number of projectiles in quick succession. If this goal wasn't attainable then what would be the purpose of bothering with this design in the first place, the muzzle loading guns that were contemporary with it were superior in every other way. I also think that M & T were right on the money when they commented on how black powder fouling would have a very adverse effect on this model and I also agree with their view that this gun's timing mechanism would never hold up for any extended period of time if it were subjected to prolonged firing.  In the final analysis, I would trust this gun as far as I could throw it and I'm talking about the full scale version.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Squire Robin

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2008, 09:03:59 AM »
Squire, does the Ordnance Soc. newsletter contain a photo or drawing of this gun? I'd be very curious to see how this gun compares to J. Cochran's models in appearance.

Lots of rather fuzzy pics, but they are not mine to give away and the website has the newsletter in a password protected, members only thing.

I paid for life membership so if I break the rules and get booted it's gonna costs me plenty :D

OTOH I could sketch it if that would help, it looks rather agricultural.

 

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2008, 12:24:09 PM »
   Squire Robin , if your game, I'll be more than glad to critique your artwork or you could just describe Pate's cannon. I'm just curious to know what it looks like after reading your earlier description; " Looks like it was based on a Colt open frame ".
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2008, 11:12:05 AM »
but its an very interesting idea
it would be nice to try an small scale build of this , lets say 0,5 inch bore .

   Dan, cannonnn's reply #1 has a series of pics of Cochran's miniature model although I can't tell from the photos if it's a working model. The model 's bore appears to be bigger than .50 cal. and I just noticed something in reviewing the photos that has me a little concerned; there appears to be some active surface oxidation going on, especially in the bore and on part's of the under-carriage and inside the chambers, I hope this is just an optical illusion and no serious pitting is occuring because I don't think there are probably that many of these Cochran models floating around out there. On second thought this appearance has to be caused by some form of photographic anomaly he would never allow something of this import to fall into jeopardy.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Who really invented the first revolver?
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2008, 02:25:17 PM »
I still think that this would defeat Cochran's main reason for designing these guns in the first place; to be able to fire a number of projectiles in quick succession.

If this were truly his design goal, then I see no reason for it as it would be useless for a much longer period than a muzzle loader after firing its preloaded charges.  I see it as a way to fire more quickly than a muzzle loader in sustained firing since only a short chamber would need to be sponged and a short chamber to be charged.  While I don't know if the model addressed accurate indexing, it should not be out of the realm of the technology of the day.  Even closing the barrel/cylinder gap would be possible.  The one thing the model doesn't seem to recognize if the magnitude of the forces involved.  The breeching supports do not appear to be adequate from my perspective for long term use.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill