Survey Of Actual 243 Win Hunters

[beemanbeme]

BTW:  On my very first hunt west of the big river. To Colorado.  North of Carbondale.  I had a brand new model 700 in .243 that was slicked up as slick as I could slick it. bedded, trigger tuned to break like glass at 3#. 3x9 Weaver. Hand loads that would put 5 shots into 1 MOA at 100 yards. 105gr Speer Hot Core bullets.  No Chrony back then but I was running about 95% of book max. Sighted 2" high at 100 yards.

2nd day of a week long DIY hunt, I had a nice three by mulie trot acrost a hill face right to left @ 150 yards out. I dropped into a modified kneeling position (remember this was my first mulie hunt but not my first rodeo) and held right on the back edge of his front leg half way up the chest and lit one off. The deer showed no reaction at all.  I had bolted another round during recoil so I sent another.  Nothing! A buddy was with me and I said, "Speedy, spot for me, where am I hitting?"  The deer had turned more uphill and I aimed for a raking shot from the short ribs forward to the lungs and heart.  After the shot, I asked Speedy, "where am I hitting?" and he said, "you're hitting the deer."  The deer started bouncing and went on up the mountain. he stopped at the crest and looked back at us and went over out of sight.  I was devastated.  I tracked that deer up and over the mountain and never saw a drop of blood.  I drove down the mountain and my rifle was shooting dead on.  I spent most or all of every day for the rest of our stay looking for that deer.  It is the only deer I have ever lost.  Since then, I have never shot a .243 at a single head of BG. The rifle hid in the back of a closet for a number of years and then the action was used as the platform for my first 7-08. The barrel is now giving good service somewhere in TN as a tomato stake.

Even to me, that sounds like one of those "I shot him exactly in the heart and he ran away never to be found" but once was enough for me.
 
Since then, I've used a variety of rifles from 7-08 up to .300WM's for 1 shot kills on mulies.  And a variety of non-magnum calibres for one shot kills on WT's. 

[flintlock]

Sounds like your bullets weren't expanding, just drilling right through him...

If you had of been using the Sierra 85gr HPBT, 100gr CoreLokt, 100gr Hornady, 100gr Nosler Partition or even the 100gr Sierra SPBT GameKing, no way would he have stood there after the shot...

[Dave in WV]

Beemanbeme, I can understand where you're coming from. I shot one deer with my .357 mag. Something weird happened. Maybe the deer was at a greater angle to my position than I thought or the bullet hit the edge of a rib (it did actually) and turned to the back end of the deer for a rather extreme cross angle gut shot only puncturing one lung. I got her but I never used my .357 after that. IMHO it was the load I used that one time.  You need to have confidence in your rig. If you second guess your equipment you will not be as effective.

[Trendy411]

I did say that the real man issues would be brought up and totally predictable right? Enough said!

[MGMorden]

I did say that the real man issues would be brought up and totally predictable right? Enough said!

The only one who brought that up was you.

Honestly though guys, I think we've hit upon a clever troll post. Lower post count, controversial topic with just enough flame bait added in to provoke a big response, and a little prod every now and then - just short, sweet, and wrong enough to keep it rolling. 

[Brithunter]

I've said before that had Winchester brought out the .243 with a decent 120-140gr bullet (as well as the 100gr for coyotes ), we wouldn't be having this conversation. Nor would the 7-08 be held in such high regard if, in fact, it even made it off the drawing board.  The .260 would probably be an unknown. But, the guys with the ties decided that they would stick with 100gr and claim all sorts of velocity since not every kid on the block had a Chrony back then and, of course, speed is something everybody can understand. Just look at NASCAR. Don'tchaknow. Also it's that thar kinetic energy. "Shoot 'em in the foot 'en it'll blow his heart up". Fellow named George Somthin', writes for Guns R We'uns said so. 

Actually it was Roy Weatherby that pedalled that particular idea and slick slaesman that he was sold it lock stock and barrel to the American shooters. I wonder how many thousands of head of game have been lost wouded to Weathery magnums? Sorry to say the the "Hyper Velocity" ideas stuck

As for the 260 Rem well it's only trying to copy the old 6.5x55, and yes I ahve see tests where it can exced the old mauser round but ten of course it does run at higher pressures so a comparison is not exactly a level playing field. The fact remains that long heavy for claibre bullets are nothing new and go back to muzzle loading days like the 451" Whitworth and Enfield, the famous 6.5x54MS and it's earlier brethren the 6.5x53R and of course the 7mm Mauser with it 175 grin bullet. For some reason American makers seemed to stick at 1 in 10" as a fast twist fro barrels until fairly recently however Mauser used 1 in 8.66" for the 6.5mm. A 6mm using 120 grain bullets would need to be about 1 in 8" I would have thought.

[George Foster]

My FIL in '67 had the exact same experience with the 105gr Speer.  He shot a big buck through the lung heart area and it didn't seem to faze the buck, this happened with two shots and then he put it down with a spine shot.  He switched to using the Hornady 100gr Sptz and never had another problem so it is possible that is was a problem with that bullet.  I believe I remember reading John Barness had a similar problem with the Speer bullet also.

[beemanbeme]

Too true, Brit. Weatherby sold a whole generation with the idea that speed, in and of itself, would excuse poor shooting, range estimation, shot placement, technique, falling arches, and dandruff.  Only of late are we coming out of that hole.

FWIW, I've never shot another Speer bullet at BG except for the old double core Grand Slam and then only after a lot of hands on experiments did I use it on elk.  I've posted that it was too hard for use on antelope and WT's (in 7mm 160's and .300 200's) except with very careful shot placement.

[Sweet 6.5]

Hi

I have to back Speer here - even with my limited experience. I shot 3 impalas with
140gr Speers out of my 6.5x55 in the last year. 2 passed through and 1 stopped under the skin.

All 3 dropped within 20 meters from where I shot them.

  Maybe ...just maybe I would have had Speer problems if I used a 243...?

Cheers
Sweet

[AtlLaw]

Sounds like your bullets weren't expanding, just drilling right through him...

If you had of been using ...100gr Nosler Partition ...

I think I also said somewhere that I still have a box of those and a box of Speer Grand Slams from my initial bullet search that I haven't tried yet!  Maybe I'll work up a load with those and try again!  I may go over to the dark side!!    

[AtlLaw]

I think we've hit upon a clever troll post.

I think you're right.  I had the same thought while writing my response, but decided to give the OP the benefit of the doubt.  However, his last post has removed that doubt for me.   

Now I'm embarrased I fed the troll...

[kyelkhunter3006]

I have to agree, it's been a spirited discussion, but the little pokes and prods here and there definitely point to a TROLL .  I think I'm done on this one...........

[243dave]

ATlLAW, come over to the darkside, load up those 100gr. grand-slams and enjoy that falling-block browning. You will get nice size exit wounds even at exteme angles on average size deer and probably nice looking groups too boot. Like I've said before I'm a 243 fan, but I'll admit a 270 is better for deer especially at longer ranges. The kind of hunting that I've been doing the last 8 or 10 years has been from tree-stands with my boys where shots average 35 yds so I don't need a 270, matter of fact at that range a 223 would work, but a 243 is just fine.  Dave

[High Brass]

I've killed several deer with my 243 using handloaded 100gr Remington PSPCLs.  Current load pushes them at 2850fps out of a 22" bbl.  Deer either DRT'd or stumbled a bit and fell. Most of the time bullets exited but I have recovered two; one a straight on shot on a  buck at about 40 yards went 2/3 the length of the deer (bang-flop).  The other a double shoulder shot on an 8pt buck  about 60 yards (bang, trot, trot, trot, flop).  I've never had any problems or worries using my 243 on deer.  Put a hole in their heart/lung area and it's pretty much a done deal.  Air goes in and out, blood goes around and around, any deviation of that is a bad thing!

[Brithunter]

Ahhh now I can fully understand loss of confidence in a particular make of bullet having had that happen to me on my very first deer. With me it was a 180 grain Sierra pro hunter fired at medium velocity from a .308 rifle which came apart on the ribs of a 35lb Roe Doe at about 90 yards. Sure the Doe dropped on the spot rolled over with feet int h air and expired but finding cup and core all through the internals of such a light beast put me off using Sierra bulelts for hunting, something which I am only just now willing to try using them again after many years and some correspondence with Sierra techs.

I am currently working to find some good loads for a 6mm Remington chambered rifle which so far has prooved very frustrating. If the loads I am currently playing with proove to be acceptable then hopefully this rifle will get to go hunting deer. However I am not holding my breathe as so far over a two year period I have expended over 300 handloads without success in finding a reliable accurate load. The rifle has been re-bedded, crowned, scope mounts changed and various scopes tried. After recieving a Simmons 6-18x40AO competition scope yesterday in the mail I fitted it up in Weaver rings and fired 15 rounds in test and got the last four to group in 0.570" at 50 yards which is the best achieved so far. Bullet was 100 grain Hornady Spire Points over 40.0 grains of IMR 4350, seems I have been seating the bullets too far out  I re-seated the last five bullets so that the cannulure was only just out of the case mouth and the group nearly halved in size, before the bullet had the cannulure about 0.100" out of the neck and I shortened the COL from 2.925" to 2.825". So much for having a small bullet jump 

[Dave in WV]

Brithunter , Rick Jamison (a US gun writer) wrote a good article about bullet seating depth. He found the seating depth can get the same results as the "boss" device Winchester and Browning used to tune barrel vibration.

[Brithunter]

Ahhh your talking about timing nodes which I don't understand well at all. The idea is that the bullet leaves the barrel at the right point which is at the extreme of it's travel in the whipping motion (swing) when the barrel is more or less stationary rather than moving as it goes between the extremes of it's movment. That I understand but as to working out the timing I am lost  The "Quick load" programme works it out I believe but I don't access to that.

So doing it the old fashioned way is what I am left with. To that end i have slit the neck of a case and used that to find the maximum COL that a bullet can be that touches the leade of the barrel. With the Hornady 100 grain Spire Point that measures 3.027" which 0.100" further than I had mine seated out and 0.200" further than the improved accuracy loading. I will load up a few using the little IMR 4350 I have left at 3.018" COL and 42.0 grains of powder and see how they do, the increase of one grain in powder should help retain the velocity lost through seating the bulet further out.

[Dave in WV]

Brithunter, PM sent. Dave

[ricehombre]

I'm listening to the stories and all the deer I shot the last 40 some odd years are wondering how one shot from a sorry little 243 could brought them down. Most fell in their tracks, some went 20 steps. All neck, heart, and lung shots. Most with 100gr CoreLoks with fist size exit holes at 100-300 yards. I was around several camps in the early days of the 7mag and 300 weatherby that made bullet holes clean thru with no blood trail due to no expansion. Gave us plenty of tracking to do during the middle of the day and at night. It seems most of the problems with deer rifles is a poor choice of bullets and bullet placement. I read these posts and wonder what kind of weapon you would need to shoot the south end of a  north bound mulie, drop him in his tracks, and have anything left you would want to eat. A bunch of blood-shot meat with bone chips and bowels mixed in doesn't appeal to me. But I guess that's why there's so much hype about bonded bullets that cost 2-3 times more than the old standbys. Or maybe after reading all this hogwash a new hunter just doesn't have confidence in his weapon if it's not a WSM, Ultramag, or super belted full metal jacket that makes him flinch before it goes off. I have several larger rifles but the 243 is more that adequate  on deer sized game.

[AtlLaw]

after reading all this hogwash ...

One persons "hogwash" is another persons opinion there Sparky...

[MGMorden]

after reading all this hogwash ...

One persons "hogwash" is another persons opinion there Sparky...

Indeed.  As I said somewhere along here - it seems that .243 owners have a persecution complex.

90% of the responses here say that the .243 is a perfectly fine deer round.  Yet most of it's strong proponents still come in as if they're fighting an uphill battle .

That or they take issue of one thinks that it's not 100% perfect even though it's acceptable.  To draw an example: imagine that 98% of shots that would have been good with a .30-06 would also be good from a .243 (made up number, but I can assure you that the number is less than 100%, even if not significantly so).  You'll get a lot of dead deer and good results from such odds.  That doesn't mean though that the 2% might not rear it's ugly head now and then.  It's certainly an acceptable margin of error, but it's also no cause for ridicule for those people looking to close that gap a little.

[deltecs]

Let's look at another perspecitive.  The .243 according to some posts, mine included is more than adequate for deer size game.  However, some others have posted it is not good enough.  95% of the time for a .243 just isn't 100% as claimed for every caliber above that on deer.   My point is if it can't be hit in the right spot with appropiate bullet for the game, then nothing is going to give 100% on any game, no matter what magnum, big bore, or whatever is used.  Hit a deer in the wrong place and some other hunter will have gut, field dressed it, and packed the animal half way to the truck, before the original dead shot, drop and floppers with a bigger bore will admit to making a bad shot.  Some bullets don't expand on the perfect shot.  Just how many hunters have retrieved game after shooting a .243 that blamed it on the bullet or energy, and proved their assertion?  If I did my job, even with a disfucntional bullet, I got home with the meat.  I did not blame the weapon when I did not, and in over 45 years of hunting deer, if hit in the vitals have not lost one due to not enough energy or using the right bullet for the game intended.

[deltecs]

Let's look at another perspecitive.  The .243 according to some posts, mine included, is more than adequate for deer size game.  However, some others have posted, it is not good enough.  95% of the time for a .243 just isn't 100%, as claimed for every caliber above that on deer.   My point is if it can't be hit in the right spot with appropiate bullet for the game, then nothing is going to give 100% on any game, no matter what magnum, big bore, or whatever is used.  Hit a deer in the wrong place and some other hunter will have gut, field dressed it, and packed the animal half way to the truck, before the original dead shot, drop and floppers with a bigger bore will admit to making a bad shot.  Some bullets don't expand on the perfect shot.  Just how many hunters have retrieved game after shooting a .243 that blamed it on the bullet or energy, and proved their assertion?  If I did my job, even with a disfucntional bullet, I got home with the meat.  I did not blame the weapon when I did not, and in over 45 years of hunting deer, if hit in the vitals have not lost one due to not enough energy or using the right bullet for the game intended.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm well consider this:-

   It could be said that well over 10% of the "hunters" should not really be out with a firearms at all   as they have poor uncorrected eyesight or a rifle that has not been touched since last year and is loaded with the first box of shells that they saw so God only knows where it's actually shooting   or like the ones I met in 2003 in a small town in Northern Missouri with a little Buck ( that was too small to have been shot) that was all shot up. I think if memory serves me correctly I counted SIX entrance holes and those were the ones I could see form several feet away. He proudly told me how he had to reload several times to brign the Buck down, his shooting was off it seems and he couldn't understand why, after all he had only drank THREE SIX PACKS! so that cannot have affected his shooting! So he missed it with at least half the shots fired. the Rem 700 holds 5 rounds does it not.

[MGMorden]

My point is if it can't be hit in the right spot with appropiate bullet for the game, then nothing is going to give 100% on any game, no matter what magnum, big bore, or whatever is used.

Oh indeed I'm aware of that.  My post above was referencing the .243 good shots being a subset of good shots from a .30-06.  The .30-06 too is going to be a subset itself and will also not net you a 100% success rate (nothing will).  Determining optimal calibers is part of the fun of the hunting equivalent of "hangar flying" .

Put it this way: to illustrate differences it's good to exaggerate specifications .  Put in the right spot, a BB fired at high enough speeds would kill a deer quickly.  Also, put in the right spot, so will a canon ball.  BAD shots could be made with each, but it's still obvious that you have a much, much (MUCH ) larger kill zone with the cannon ball vs the BB.  Larger, heavier projectile means more energy which means more leeway.  Now, in this case the BB is well under the adequate mark and the cannon ball as well above the excessive mark.  When the projectiles grow closer in size the difference shrinks but it's still there.  MOST people seem to agree that the .243 is completely adequate for deer hunting (as would I), but it can be acknowledged that there CAN be rounds capable of a wider range of clean shots (and a slightly larger margin of error) and using those or looking for those is not a bad thing.  After all, "if I do my part" my bicycle will get me to work every day (and I have several coworkers who do cycle in with no issues) - but I sure to find the car to be better suited for that purpose .

Brithunter: A notable story, and I'm certainly familiar with such hunters, but for the purposes of this discussion I've pretty much limited my scope (no pun intended) to just the equipment's capabilities, since we are generally interested in what such guns will do in our own hands rather than in those of bad hunters .  If Tiger Woods claims that 1 golf club is better than another (and it's not a paid ad ) I certainly couldn't tell the difference because I suck at golf anyways, but that doesn't make his original statement untrue or invalid.

[AtlLaw]

after all he had only drank THREE SIX PACKS!

Funny, I don't remember meeting you...    Oh wait, you said Missouri... musta been my evil yankee twin....

    

[AtlLaw]

Having said my piece in this thread... more then once... I wasn't going to contribute anymore.  Other then a smart a&# comment that is.     But...  I've always figured a man's affection for a given cartridge is kinda like a man's desire for a woman.  Other men may think she is not the prettyest, the best cook or house keeper around, but she obviously gets the job done for him!     Logic and reason are not involved, other men might thing he's crazy or blind, but no one will be able to convince him she's not the best thing in panties.

Now I'll probably kill more deer with a 243.  Not because I think it's a great deer caliber, but like I said before, because I like the one rifle I have in it so much!  Then again I adore the quarter bores and 6.5 calibers.  Got a Bob and a .250/3000 project; got 4 - 6.5's.  But lets take the 25 cal for example.  Intellectually I know that, if I compare the two with 100 gr. bullets the 25's may or may not be a little faster or slower and they will have a little less sectional density then the .243 Win.  Therefore the real  difference comes down to the 25's larger bore diameter; .014 inch.  Enough to make a reliable difference?  I dunno.     But I know I do trust my 25 as much as I'm leery of my 24.  And I've never even SEEN them in panties!   

[john keyes]

Pretty funny how the .243 is an evil deer wounder but the much praised .250 Savage can do no wrong.

[Freezer]

Those of you who actually hunted white tail, hog, or any other medium sized game with a 243 Win let me know how the round performed. Specifics as to factory brand or hand loads along with such things as barrel lengths would be helpful too. Please do not inform me as to using a higher caliber would be better or ney sayers to the 243 that have never actually hunted with one, as thats not the purpose of this post. What is it with mostly men wanting to have the biggest caliber that they can find and then I see too many people at the range flinching, and grasping in pain because of too much recoil in heavier calibers.   Im guessing its a macho thing. They obviously cant practice as much because of pain and when time to hunt they probably wont feel the pain but may not be accurate due to not enough practice. Over the years as I have watched the hunting programs on TV as most of other hunters have and noticed that women and younger children who shoot with the smaller calibers have dropped deer in their tracks more often than men with their macho magnums. This I believe is due to better shot placement as they are probably less likely to flinch with the smaller calibers. If your not heavily built then leave those magnums to those who are.

   I wasn't going to get involved in this but I can't help myself!  I really like the way this post was phrased, forget the scripture and the sermon I just want to hear the choir sing my favorite song!  .243 can do it but why?  There are so many better calibers especially for a new-be.

[MGMorden]

Pretty funny how the .243 is an evil deer wounder but the much praised .250 Savage can do no wrong.

And the persecution complex rears it's head again.  The overwhleming response has not been that the .243 is an evil deer wounder at all, but rather an effective if not optimal round .