Survey Of Actual 243 Win Hunters

[flintlock]

"I hunt with a M100 Winchester in 243 Winchester.  I like the 243 because when you shoot a deer with a 243 you still get to hunt for two or three hours more"  Gary D., Central MS.

I call BS on this as well...

We kill 40-50 deer a year on our 3 farms...We see no difference on deer hit with a .243 vs those hit with a 7mm-08, .270, .260, .308, 30-06, .280 or .270 WSM...

Where we do run into problems is with hunters flinching and not making a good shot, these are the deer that we have to spend more time tracking...

[no guns here]

Come on... you guys actually expect us to believe that you can kill a deer with a .243?  What are you all smokin?  You probably believe the OJ is searching for the real killer too right?  A .243 ain't good for nothing more than tin cans...  If you are gonna shoot sumpin' you better use enough gun for the job.  The absolute minimum for WT is the .30-'06, heck even the .308 bounces off at more than a hundred yards...  Might be better served with a pea-shooter and a pack of hamburger meat...

Hope you can tell I'm kiddin'!  While I don't have a .243, I do have a 6mm Rem that kills deer just fine.  I PREFER a .308 or '06 but sometimes I pull out the 6mm.  I've never felt under-gunned.  I haven't hunted the big northern WT though.  If I were doing that, I'd probably stick with a .30 cal of some kind.

Can't shoot red deer or hogs here in Germany with a 6mm... has to be at least a 6.5mm... lots of .243's for sale here most of the time.  6mm is legal for roe, fox, hare and stuff like that but not for bigger game.

Later,
ngh

[jmayton]

I don't have a .243, but my brother-in-law bought one this past year.  He's taken a couple of hogs with it.  He was shooting Winchester 100gr softpoints.  But I can speak to smaller calibers on medium game.  Over the past 20 months I've been helping a rancher control his hog population.  So far we've killed 56 hogs.  I've personally shot 40 of them.  Most have been shot with a .223 of some configuration.  I've used a few other calibers just to keep things interesting, but the .223 has been my favorite.  I use 55gr Sierra SPBT GameKings because my Handi Rifle and my AR both like the load.  I've killed about 3 hogs beyond 150 yds with them but most are between 50-100yds.  We also took several doe from this ranch and my brother-in-law used my .223 and shot 4 doe with it.  3 dropped immediately from neck shots and 1 ran 30yds from a heart/lung shot.  If the .223 can be that effective, then I see no reason why the .243 can't be more.  

However, it all comes down to shot placement.  My experience so far tells me that it doesn't matter how big the bullet is, it's where you put it.

[deltecs]

I think it is time to butt in again.  Yes, shot placement is the most critical determination in killing game.  However, one must consider bullet construction next.  A too frangible bullet placed perfectly may not and sometimes does not, reach vital areas or mortally wound game.  Too many hunters use the fastest, most accurate bullet for hunting game and this probably is not the best choice.  A .223 bullet is designed for frangible expansion and should not be used on game.  Bullets in the .243 bore are both frangible and controlled expansion.  Use of controlled expansion bullets on deer, OK.  Use frangible bullets and you will get poor results.  Light weight bullets in .243 are designed to be frangible, so the .243 or 6mm weapons could be used for both varint and big game hunting.  Use the proper bullet and in my experience, no bullet less than 100 gr qualifies as a big game bullet in .243.  I except the Nosler Partitions in 95 gr only.  I do not except Barnes X bullets.  They are not reliable when it comes to expansion on deer size game in this smaller bore and bullet weight.  Some do not expand and just as useless as a solid, some work perfect, some explode on impact causing severe external wounds but not killing shots.  The .243 or 6mm is very effective on big game when using the proper bullet and if placed correctly, just as effective a rifle in a bigger bore or cartridge.

[yooper77]

deltecs,

I select specific minimum bullets for the 243 Winchester as well for big game and my selection is minimum 90 gran Swift Scirocco 2, 95 grain Nosler Partition and any other bullet 100 grains.  The 90 grain Ballistic Tip might work, but they are to frangible in my personal experience.

I also wish all states would restrict big game caliber size to be .243 minimum along with the minimum 95 grain bullet weight and minimum velocity combined, that way all these varmint cartridges cannot be used for taking of big game legally.  Additionally other caliber having their minimum bullet weights and velocities combined, so you couldn't use a 90 grain bullet in a 270 Winchester for example.  These are just my thoughts and my thoughts only.

I also don't like Barnes bullets either, since I witnessed an old X-bullet fail to expand on an Antelope, also too pricey and pressure problems.  If I was looking for a no-lead bullets, I would consider the new Noslers E-Tip but I have no need for a no-lead bullet.

yooper77

[flintlock]

If they restricted .243 users to bullets that weighed 90grs then they would be eliminating the Sierra 85gr HPBT GameKing, which is an excellent long range deer and antelope killer...We have enough laws, let each man decide on his own...

[yooper77]

flintlock,

I was just thinking I forgot the 85 grain Nosler Partition, plus I am sure there are others that would be well constructed for the job as well.

I have just seen a 2 deer after they were shot broadside with light varmint bullets from a a 223 Remington & 22-250 Remington during one deer season and these deer had huge gaping wounds and didn't die from them.  The deer were finished with a 270 Winchester after along hike.

Specific legal and illegal cartridge laws wouldn't hurt.

yooper77

[gstewart44]

When we started our Hunt Club in Southern GA 11 yrs ago everyone was using 3006, 308 or 300 mag.   After a few years one of the members got a Ruger bolt in 243 for his wife and she decided she didn't want to hunt anymore.  He started using it and loved it.   Most of the rest of followed suit.  We shoot WT, hog and coyote down here and the 243 has had excellent results.    Over 150 deer (120-160 lbs) have been taken. Only two didn't drop within sight and they were due to poor shot placement.   

Hogs are a different matter.   Small porkers under 100 pounds have been easily downed with 95-100 gr bullets in the shoulder/neck area.   Over 200 pounds and especially old boars require a bit of precision placement in the skull or ear to have a bang flop.    We have tracked a long way several big hogs that were hit in the shoulder/lung and refused to go down.   
 
The most amazing one was a 235 lb boar that was coming down a trail to me.    I was 20 ft up in a stand and had an 80 yd shot.   the boar was almost head on with a slight quartering to the right.  As I pulled the trigger for a head shot, he stumbled, squealed and took off through the scrub.  I never heard him crash.   I got down from the stand and went to where he stumbled .....no blood!    I went slowly through the scrub and found his tracks but no blood.   After 45 minutes it was starting to get dark and I headed back to camp.   

Walking out I saw a little frothy blood in the bushes near the ground.   I was 400 yds from my stand.   A flashlight showed a few more frothy drops and about 20 yds later a collected the boar.    No exit wound.   Just bloody foam around the nostrils.   

Back at camp we traced the bullet wound and found the bullet.  Entered between the neck and shoulder, exploded the leading rib then followed a path between the backstrap and spine.   It was recovered where the backstrap meets the hip.   The rib fragments had punctured the lungs and he ran over 400 yds.   

Anyway for the big pigs I now use 30 cal 180gr bullets.   If I am hunting deer with my 243 and a broadside ear/neck shot presents on a larger hog I would take it inside 75 yds.

The most popular 243 round at the camp is the Hornady Light Mag.   Almost always is a bangflop on deer with all of our members. 

[gstewart44]

Forgot to mention the other 243 round used successfully are Fusion 95 gr and Winchester Supreme 100 gr.   Barrel lengths are 20 -22 inches.   

[jmayton]

I agree that bullet construction is vitally important.  I've been real happy with the GameKings and what they can do.  Even in a small caliber.

[MGMorden]

Specific legal and illegal cartridge laws wouldn't hurt.

But get too specific and you end up in a bad situation.  Like in Europe where they're not allowed to hunt with Military calibers in some countries (so .30-06, .45-40, .303 Brit, 7mm Mauser, 8mm Mauser, 6.5 Swede, etc, are all out right off the bat).

While I don't see that specific situation happening here, what I COULD possibly see if your idea was taken to it's extreme, would be simply a 'whitelist" of approved round/bullet combinations.  While it would probably cover MOST of what people hunt with, it's quite possible that a lot of wildcats, oddball catridges, etc, would get left out.

As it is, I gotta agree that we got enough laws (for the most part anyways).  Tell people what to do for too long and they loose the ability to think for themselves.  Anything centerfire over .224" caliber is good and simple enough in my mind. 

I will agree though that some states are too lenient, or their current laws poorly worded.  Up until quite recently .17HM2 would have been a legal deer round in SC.  The regs stated that ".22 caliber rimfires" were not permitted, but failed to state "or smaller", effectively leaving open .17 caliber rimfires.  This was corrected within the last year or two.  The only centerfire restrictions are that you can't use "hard jacketed military type" bullets - so no FMJ, but .17 Remington Fireball, .204 Ruger, and .22 Hornet are all perfectly legal.  AND, all of the listed restrictions are ONLY mandated on WMA (public) hunting lands.  None of them apply to private lands and you are technically free to use even rimfire rounds there.  Even as someone opposed to most expansion of existing laws, I'll agree that permitting rimfire use on deer, or anything UNDER .224" caliber is just not good.

[beemanbeme]

If you can use a .243, you ought to be able to use anything centerfire.  I knew a little old lady in TN that collected her deer each fall with a .22LR single shot.  If she could do it, then everybody ought to be able to take to the woods with their 10/22 and just arkansas away. Cause it's where you stick 'em don'tchaknow.
I find it strange that no one (except GB) has been honest enough to tell about any of their spectacular failures with a .243.  Anybody want to hear mine? 

[Duckhunter39480]

Please get a grip.  The 243 is a fine deer rifle and those of us that use one are generally happy.  I borrowed the "get to hunt a little longer" line from a friend but both of us use the 243/6mm with excellent results.  Bullet placement is important with a 243 just as it is with the 350 Rem. Mag.   If you miss the target, you won't get the deer.  I haven't taken many deer with this round but I've never had one to go over 30 yards and most dropped in their tracks.  I've not had exceptional accuracy with the heavier bullets but the 85 to 90 grain bullets perform extremely well, especially the Nosler partitions and the Barnes bullets.

[deltecs]

If you can use a .243, you ought to be able to use anything centerfire.  I knew a little old lady in TN that collected her deer each fall with a .22LR single shot.  If she could do it, then everybody ought to be able to take to the woods with their 10/22 and just arkansas away. Cause it's where you stick 'em don'tchaknow.
I find it strange that no one (except GB) has been honest enough to tell about any of their spectacular failures with a .243.  Anybody want to hear mine? 

Well, it appears that your shooting ability is not in the same league as the little old lady in TN.  If she hasn't had any spectacular failures with a .22 rimfire, then you must be doing something wrong with a .243 Win.  And as a .243 Win is substantially more powerful, as accurate, better penetration, heavier slugs, then any reasoning or justification for anything bigger is totally illogical in light of the little old lady from TN whose little .22 rimfire was perfect.

[Brithunter]

This might interest you, some years back Eire (Southern Ireland) did a gun grab and banned all rifles. Later they relented and allowed the use of .22 rifles. Now Ireland has some nice Sika and Red Deer so cartridges like the 220 swift and 22-150 became popular however it was a Germanic cartridge which prooved to be about the favorite. It's the RWS 5.7x57mm which uses a 70 grain bullet as standard, eventually the government graciously allowed the use of rifles up to .270" however quite a few with their 5.7mm's stayed with them as they had prooved so effective.

Laws are more often plainly stupid, makes you wonder about the ones who write them does it not?

[beemanbeme]

Oh, I might not be able to outshoot a LOL in TN but I daresay I can pretty much stay with the popgun crowd.  Had this been a simple thread where you folks wanted to high five and brag around it'd be fine with me but if you read the opener the thread is really a chance to put in a bunch of snotty digs against the folks that shoot real guns by parroting rumors and myths that you really know nothing about. Just because some of you've tried a larger rifle and couldn't handle it, doesn't mean everyone can't.
FYI, quite a few of the locals use .223's and .222's to take their deer.  But then they are skilled and careful woodsmen.  That have learnt their craft in the woods not in cyberspace or thru hearsay.   Do I recommend the .223 or .222 for a WT deer rifle?  For your average arm chair great white hunter?  ROFLMAO 

[deltecs]

Oh, I might not be able to outshoot a LOL in TN but I daresay I can pretty much stay with the popgun crowd.  Had this been a simple thread where you folks wanted to high five and brag around it'd be fine with me but if you read the opener the thread is really a chance to put in a bunch of snotty digs against the folks that shoot real guns by parroting rumors and myths that you really know nothing about. Just because some of you've tried a larger rifle and couldn't handle it, doesn't mean everyone can't.
FYI, quite a few of the locals use .223's and .222's to take their deer.  But then they are skilled and careful woodsmen.  That have learnt their craft in the woods not in cyberspace or thru hearsay.   Do I recommend the .223 or .222 for a WT deer rifle?  For your average arm chair great white hunter?  ROFLMAO 

My post too, was a tongue in cheek for those that think the .243 Win is inadequate for deer.  Like any rifle and cartridge, the choice of bullet and placement for the game intended is of utmost importance.  Yes, the .224 bullets are mostly designed for explosive effect on varmints, but a few and very few, are designed for controlled expansion.  In the hands of a good marksman and hunter willing to take his time, then why not with appropriate bullets.  The 22 rimfire has killed elephant but I don't think I'd like to try it on any constant basis.  The same with brown bear or any DG or big game.  So any of the centerfire .22 's CAN kill game, but within the ethics demanded of sport hunters?

[Dave in WV]

I find it strange that no one (except GB) has been honest enough to tell about any of their spectacular failures with a .243.  Anybody want to hear mine? 

I'd share mine but I don't have any firearm failures.  Dave failures yes, .243 failures no.  BTW, I haven't had a "Dave" failure while using my .243.   

[j104wd]

I figured this thread would turn into the same beating the dead horse small caliber debate. There are too many variables in hunting to make decisions based on what somone else posts. my wifes 243 is the smalliest I will carry into the deer woods it is an effective cartirdge but to each his or her own.

[cleveland48]

My oldest brother swears by the 243.  We hunt with dogs in Northeast Ms, and used to be northwest Alabama.(Which shut down dog hunting a coulple of years ago) Both of these states have high bag limits. And he has probably killed 70 or so deer with the 243 since he was a little kid. This was his first rifle he had and he still uses it to this day dog hunting it is a carbine 243 in Rem. 7400.  Has used all types of 95 to 100 gr factory loads with no problem.  I even used it one day to shoot a 5pt at about 180 yards.  It dropped in  its tracks.  And 2 years ago he killed a monster 9pt in Alabama still hunting and it weighed 235 ibs.  A hoss for my neck of the woods he took it down no problem with the winchester supreme bal. tip. I don't think you will have any trouble with this caliber.  I have seen deer shot down here running dogs with everything from a 243 all the way to a 375 H&H, plus one 458 win mag and one 8mm Rem mag(my dad and uncle always read african books, so they had some big guns lol just to play with but they actually killed some deer with them). The one with the 243 was just as dead I promise you. You won't be undergunned.

[243dave]

I've had nothing but praise for the 243. I've hunted with it since 82, and killed lots of deer, groundhogs and several turkey while growing up. Used a 70gr. mk for the turkey and groundhog and 100gr. corelokt for deer until the last few years, I switched to 100gr grandslams. My experience with with the corelokts was always positive but at times if slipped between ribs they didn't expand well but the lungs was always jellified and the deer would expire in a 150 yds or less, so that definatly is not a bullet failure!! The 100gr. speer grand-slams is a new favorite, it seems to expand quickly but exits at extreme angles, plus it shoots close to a half inch at a hundred yards in a sporter weight barrel. I admit when I shot deer through the ribs a 75yd run wasn't uncommon but if I wanted it drt I put the but the bullet on the shoulder. If that makes a 243 a marginal round then I'm guilty of using a whimp of a cartridge that kills everything it has struck.  

[cajun]

I've been hunting whitetail with a 243 for about 5 years now.  I own an H&R Ultra with 24 inch barrel and last year purchased a Savage with a 22" SS barrel.  My hunting load is a 100gr Hornady Interlock with IMR4350.

I have killed deer with both guns.  I have shot a total of 10 deer and recovered 9.  The one that I did not recover was due to bad shot choice and poor reaction on my part after the initial shot.  Most of the animals I shot either dropped immediately or went no more than 30 yards.  Shots were from 30 yards out to 240 yards.  I did have a large doe (140#) that I shot at 160 yards that went about 120 yards...........not sure what happened; a broadside lung shot.

I have a lot of confidence in these rifles.  I am never concerned about recoil and can spend more time at the range with them.  I have hunted in the past with an 06 but was never as comfortable with it as with the 243.  And yes, I have failed to recover deer shot with the 06. 

On the size caliber issue, I have also killed three deer with a 7.62x39 carbine.  All 3 dropped in sight.

[huntswithdogs]

Beeman, Yeah I'd like to hear your story. This thread doesn't need to turn into a bashing though. I've lost deer with a shotgun, rifle(300WM) and bow. I claim the fault of the losses and don't blame them on the equipment.

The 243 debate is about as touchy as the debate of whether the 30/30 is worth hunting with. Both suit different folks or they don't. For those who love them, yeah they're gonna crow out them. For those who have either had bad results or have just listened to others for too long then nothing will ever be said to make them change their minds.

As for my 243, I've had it for almost 30 years and will not be getting rid of it anytime soon. It's done me well over the years. During those 30 years, I've had some real thumpers and have killed deer with them all. But for some reason I keep coming back to my ole 243. I reckon familiarity has a lot to do with.

HWD 

[old03]

My dad bought me a 788 in 243 when I was about 8 years old, I can't reallly tell you exaclty how many deer I've taken with it but it was my deer rifle of choice until last year when I built a custom 270.  So I hunted with it for 30 years or so.   I've never had a problem taking deer with the 243,  and I'm talking about 100+ that Ive taken with it.  There miight have been a couple I lost in that period of time but that was because I didn't do my part and chose poor shots.

[beemanbeme]

One could say that in most cases it was a matter of the hunter "not doing his part". Whether it is in bullet choice, rifle choice, calibre choice, lack of practice, etc. It really takes very little to kill a 100# WV WT if a precise shot is made at a calm deer. If the same deer has his blood up and is already fleeing, they can absorb an amazing amount of punishment. 
One of the grains of partial truth your myths is the magnum shooters that bought into the "kinetic energy" BS. They would take a light for calibre bullet and drive it at warp speed. (it really impresses the non shooters around the water cooler at work)  The bullets of the day would be coming apart before they hit the animal and so, when it did, it would shatter, causing extensive meat damage or a grievous wound and the animal would escape. It, of course, couldn't be the hunter's fault for not knowing what he was doing so it had to be a bullet failure. Don'tchaknow.   So now, they are making the bonded, boutique bullets and the fellows shooting standard calibre rifles are buying them when they would be better off with the old fashioned cup and core bullets. 
And, of course, you have the type that want to appear as some sort of Cool Hand Luke that never makes a shot that isn't exactly perfect.  You wonder if he has actually ever been hunting.  So when some pilgrim wonders in and sez, "I'm spending $10,000 on a guided elk hunt, can I use my .243 with 75gr target bullets?"  He pops up and sez "oh hell yes, it's all I ever use and my Grandpa has been using the same load since he was a boy."  And a chorus of other wannabes chime in with "yeah, me too". 
But remember, if this hadn't started out as a thinly disguised "let's bash the guys that shoot real guns" thread, we wouldn't be having this conversation.    

[AtlLaw]

I been trying to stay outa this ...    But I can't...    Just ain't my nature...     So, as I've said every time this discussion comes up,    when it comes to deer, the 243 makes a fine coyote caliber... 

[kyelkhunter3006]

I been trying to stay outa this ...    But I can't...    Just ain't my nature...     So, as I've said every time this discussion comes up,    when it comes to deer, the 243 makes a fine coyote caliber... 

Hmmm, that would seem to be a slight mis-quote of Elmer Keith's famous diatribe to Jack O'Connor's beloved .270 Winchester....."makes a damned adequate coyote rifle."

Honestly guys, saying that the .243 isn't a deer caliber would be like saying that the .300 and .330 mags aren't elk calibers.  If you take just a simple ratio of bullet weight vs animal weight, such as a 100gr bullet for a 200lb deer, then the .50 BMG with a 700gr bullet would barely be a moose round.  In a bit more scientific theory, in Gun & Ammo (or Hunting, which one was it?), they had a ratio based on the "recommended" elephant calibers (diameter and projectile weight and energy) and body weight of elephants, which said that the .22 rimfire was the ideal whitetail round.   

This has been said before, but it bears repeating...  The .22 and .24 caliber rifles are often considered marginal for deer sized game, yet for decades the .223 has been considered more than suitable for shooting other mammals of the same size out to 500 yds in the theaters of war?   

Caliber's don't really matter, it's part of the mental game in the end.  If for whatever reason you don't have confidence in a caliber, you aren't going to shoot it well and you aren't going to be happy with its performance.  Period.   

If you put a piece of metal in an animals lungs/heart, said animal will soon die.     It's not going to take the hit, and say, "ah, well, it felt like it was just a .243 bullet, no big deal."   

[2ndtimer]

This has been said before, but it bears repeating...  The .22 and .24 caliber rifles are often considered marginal for deer sized game, yet for decades the .223 has been considered more than suitable for shooting other mammals of the same size out to 500 yds in the theaters of war?    Huh

  True, but in military application, wounding the target may be more effective than anchoring the target.  Since a wounded soldier may take as many as 3 out of the fight.  For hunting, the ideal effect is to drop the animal immediately, both for humane reasons as well as ease of recovery.

It's not going to take the hit, and say, "ah, well, it felt like it was just a .243 bullet, no big deal."

  Kind of like the arguments about how inadequate 9mm or .380 auto cartridges are for self defense.  Still haven't found any one willing to stand up and take a couple to prove the point.

My personal experience with the .243 is limited to a single whitetail doe, running at about 150 yards.  My Nosler 100 gr Solid Base bullet left the muzzle around 2900 fps and impacted her a little high and a little far back, shattering the spine.  The animal did a front somersault and was DRT.  A lucky shot, but still a one shot stop.  I have no qualms about using a similar combination on deer out to 250 yards or so.  Just no more running shots, even with a nice broadside presentation.  Hopefully in the coming years I will have some more opportunities, and perhaps my opinion will change.  I need to take a few animals with the 6.5x55 and .270 WSM to decide which one to use.

[turkeyeye]

Use 100gr. Core-Lokt or 95gr. Fusion and put it in the right spot and you won't track far.

[flintlock]

beeman and altlaw...Let us know what went wrong and the details of your problems with the cartridge, maybe we can help...