Another 45LC question specific to the H&R Survivor

[Maplicito]

Does anyone know what levels the Survivor in 45LC/.410 can be loaded to when firing .45's?  Can it handle the Blackhawk/TC levels, or do reloads need to be kept at standard 45 loads?  Also, I'm assuming that with the bullet going through the Survivor's 20 inch barrel instead of a pistol barrel, slower powders might be more appropriate - does anyone have any favourite powders they'd recommend trying?  So far I've gotten great consistency with 9 grains of Unique under a 200 grain bullet, but would like to reduce the arc in my shots.  I have emailed H&R with the same question, but if I can get the answer quicker here, why not?

[John R.]

I have loaded the Handi-rifle with 27 grs. of H-110 with a 250 gr. XTP for 1550 fps out of a 20" bbl. It stones whitetails. It basically gives you 454 Casull performance out of the 20" Handi-rifle.

[Maplicito]

Is the Survivor good for that as well then?  Just looking at H&R's site, it lists my barrel as being the SB1-41C.

[PaulS]

Contact the manufacturer, they will tell you if you can exceed the industry standard pressures.
The strength of the barrel is limited by size, the locking mecanism and the materials used.
You might get away with loading the +P loads for a long time but it might cause fatigue fractures over time leading to a catastrophic failure.
There are too few shooters to go and lose some over a hot load in a gun not designed to handle them.

[Maplicito]

I've emailed H&R already... I'd call them, but I'm at work during business hours.  Just hoping someone has definite knowledge the stronger reloads are fine, but if need be, I'll wait for H&R.

[quickdtoo]

I have loaded the Handi-rifle with 27 grs. of H-110 with a 250 gr. XTP for 1550 fps out of a 20" bbl. It stones whitetails. It basically gives you 454 Casull performance out of the 20" Handi-rifle.

The above quoted reply doesn't apply to the 45/410 Survivor since it's a different firearm, the 45/410 Survivor is sold on an SB1 shotgun frame while the 45 Long Colt Handi frame is an SB2, H&R won't fit that barrel to an SB1, nor will they fit it to any SB2 frame made before 1999. There are big differences in the barrel material also, the Survivor barrel is 1137 mild steel, while the 45 Long Colt is 4140 alloy. I seriously doubt you would have catastrophic failure of the Survivor due to the tremendous amount of freebore in the 410 chamber, but the pressure difference between the 14kpsi Colt load and the 25kpsi +P (TC/Ruger) loads may cause primer issues due to the larger firing pin and the surrounding hole in the frame which has been an issue for many who try to use any pistol chambered rifle barrel on an SB1 shotgun frame. I would follow the advice of the manufacturer as has been recommended, hopefully you'll get a reasonable answer from the new Remington/H&R CS. 

Tim

[Maplicito]

Thanks for the response Tim.  I MAY start working up some loads gradually, at my own risk of course, but I might end up being too chicken (smart?) if I don't hear what I'm hoping for from H&R.  I half expect them to give a non-committal attempt to avoid any liability rather than a straight answer, but we'll see!  If I get an answer from them, I'll make sure to post it here.

For any 45 Colt guys reading the thread... any suggestions for powders that are more appropriate for the 20 inch barrel, or at least places I could look?  I've tried checking out Alliant, but their reloading info is down... and I'm too entirely exhausted to look else where tonight.

Thanks again for the info.

Bryan

[PaulS]

On the matter of using slow powders for longer barrels and faster powders for short barrels:
The test results that I have read and the test printouts that I have seen show that the highest pressure occurs in the first few of inches of the barrel even with the slowest burning powders. Even with the slowest burning powders it is all burned within a couple of inches of the chamber. If you have a barrel that is longer than 3 inches your 270  or whatever cartridge is burning all the powder in the case. That muzzle flash is because of the super heated gasses that are escaping before they have time to cool. Do you lose velocity with a shorter barrel? YES! The hot gasses continue to push against that bullet as long as the pressure generated is higher than the drag on the bullet in the barrel. Can you get some velocity back by using faster burning powders? NOT according to the studies that the NRA, Hodgdon powder company and a few others have published throughout the years. If you could, then they would be listed as such in the manuals. Do you lose muzzle flash with faster powders? YES! The pressure drops off faster and with that pressure the temperature drops too! That pressure drop is also what keeps you from getting more velocity with the fast powder than you get with the slower burning powders. The best powder for any load depends completely on the weight of the bullet and the available space for powder. You can only use so much powder until peak pressure goes over what is safe so you can't put 40 grains of Bullseye in a 270 with a 4 inch barrel and get good velocity before it turns into a hand grenade. By the same token you can't get enough of H450 into a 38 special case to get the pressure high enough to push a bullet fast enough to make it worth doing.
The powders that give the highest velocity in your cartridge will always give the highest velocity - regardless of the length of your barrel!

[Lone Star]

PaulS is 100% correct, and testing over the past 30 years has confirmed this.  As for appropriate powders - H110/W296 will likely give the highest velocities with the most recoil and blast.  Powders like AA-9, AA-7 and BlueDot will still give reasonably high velocities with less blast and recoil.  More is not always better.



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[Maplicito]

Thanks for the info.  I'm not too worried about recoil or muzzle blast at this point... with 9 grains of Unique under a 200 grain bullet, recoil has been virtually non-existant so far.  At the very least, I don't see it equalling my .338 win mag in recoil, and as long as I keep it under that level, I'm perfectly happy    I don't really need a killer uber-fast load anyway, I'd just like to improve the arc of my bullets a bit.