Author Topic: safe carry, locked and cocked? (Read 5537 times)

Will52100 · « **on:** July 29, 2008, 04:08:08 AM »

I'm thinking of getting a springfield armory 1911 for concelled carry and personal defense. Just how safe is it to carry locked and cocked? I understand that you have to kick the safty off, depress the grip safety and pull the trigger, doesn't sound like it would be real likely for that to happen while carrying, but then strangerthings have happened.

Opinions?

John R. · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2008, 05:11:57 AM »

The gun was designed to be carried that way and it should be carried cocked and locked. You must take the time to practice and learn the 1911. It is one of my favorites and I carry one cocked and locked quite frequently.

Savage · « **Reply #2 on:** July 29, 2008, 05:19:49 AM »

Pretty simple really. If you have any concerns whatsoever, carry something else. I carry and shoot a 1911 frequently, always cocked and locked for carry.
Savage

Will52100 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2008, 06:54:07 AM »

Thanks, I am familure with the operation and have owned a couple of 1911's before, just never carried locked and cocked. I guess I'm just used to carrying a single action with the hammer down between live rounds. My only real concern is how hard would it be to accedently discharge a 1911 in good working order. Safeties can fail. If posible I like to try to outwit Murphy.

Thanks for the input.

Savage · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2008, 07:30:03 AM »

[quote ]
My only real concern is how hard would it be to accedently discharge a 1911 in good working order. Safeties can fail. If posible I like to try to outwit Murphy.

Thanks for the input.
[/quote]

Refer to my previous post.

Savage

John R. · « **Reply #5 on:** July 29, 2008, 07:37:10 AM »

If you ever want to have an accidental discharge with a 1911, carry it hammer down on a live round. You will let the hammer slip letting it down to carry it, or cocking the gun to fire. In my opinion this is the absolute WORST way to carry a 1911. Like Savage said, if your not comfortable carrying cocked and locked, pick another gun.

Old Syko · « **Reply #6 on:** July 29, 2008, 08:42:19 AM »

I have to agree with all the other replies. If you're not confident enough in either the gun or your own abilities to carry cocked and locked as the designer originally intended then the 1911 may not be right for you. To carry a 1911 in any other configuration is just inviting disaster.

Will52100 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 29, 2008, 06:48:55 PM »

Let me make it plain so there's no confusion, I'm asking a hardware question, not a training or confidence. With training and practice confidence will come. I'm asking a strickly hardware question, mainly how reliable is carrying locked and cocked? I know the 1911 was designed to be carried that way, what would it take to cause a failure, how reliable is the mechanicle safety? How likely or unlikely is an accidental discharge when carried locked and cocked and the weopone is well maintained and of decent quality?

Thanks,

Will

ihuntbucks · « **Reply #8 on:** July 29, 2008, 09:51:35 PM »

Will,I carry a SA Custom Loaded a lot of the time.Cocked & locked...to have the safety lever to be depressed and the beaver-tail safety to be pressed to fire by chance,,,I would say next to none.

...Rick

Old Syko · « **Reply #9 on:** July 29, 2008, 10:53:55 PM »

Will there has been no confusion by anyone who has responded so far. You're being told that it isn't a mechanical issue. With the multilevel safety of the 1911 it is as reliable or possibly even more-so than any other system available. It all comes down to the end user. There is no mechanical issue.

Mikey · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2008, 01:42:29 AM »

Will52100: the 1911/1911A1 system is perfectly safe to carry cocked and locked, especially if you do not carry a loaded round in the chamber. This system is designed to be perfectly safe especially when you carry the pistol loaded (with a live round in the chamber), cocked (hammer fully cocked to the rear) and locked (slide safety engaged).

I have never heard of a accidental discharge with a 1911/1911A1 carried in the above stated manner. The mechanics you identified - kicking the safety off, engaging the grip safety and pulling the triger are out of sequence. You must first properly grasp the pistol by its grip to depress and thereby deactivate the grip safety, then swipe the slide safety with your shooting hand thumb to deactivate it, and then and only then can you pull the trigger to fire the pistol. Please note the slide safety can be engaged/disengaged without the grip safety activated or deactivated but the pistol cannot be fired without the grip safety depressed. This all assumes a properly working pistol.

One properly trained with the 1911/1911A1 can draw and fire the pistol within 1.5 seconds. If the pistol is not carried with a live round in the chamber you must add at least another 1.5 seconds to that elapsed time before the pistol can be made to fire. It takes 1.5 seconds for a person to travel a distance of 10 feet and stab you twice with a knife or pointed/edged object, which is why you should carry your 1911/1911A1 chambered, cocked and locked. Mikey.

Will52100 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 30, 2008, 06:22:39 AM »

Rick, Mikey, Old Syko, thanks, that was the information I was looking for. Sorry it took so long for me to convey it.

williamlayton · « **Reply #12 on:** July 30, 2008, 10:33:51 PM »

I will add some confusion into this discussion.
Charlie Miller was an old Texas ranger.
He carried his Colt Commercial with the grip safety tied down by rawhide (due too a weakness in the hand from being shot), on half cock, with the safety on---stuffed in his pants.
Asked by a range officer if he didn't know that was dangerous, Charlie replied " if it wasn't dangerous I wouldn't carry the son-of-a-bitch."
Now the conclusion is, if that was done it would seem that carrying cocked and locked, as it was designed, should be a lot safer.
Blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #13 on:** July 31, 2008, 01:53:19 AM »

Williamlayton: I've heard that story before but it doesn't quite work that way. Not one of my 1911s can be carried with the hammer at half cock and the slide safety engaged, regardless as to what position the grip safety is in. Try that on your 1911s - your STIs shouldn't do that either - that's not the way the slide safety works - can only work on full cock.

As for the grip safety tied down - we used to tape them down until we taught ourselves to properly grip the pistol and then we forgot about tieing or taping the grip safety down. All that ranger managed to do was to slow down his ability to bring the pistol to fire in a rapid manner and if eh ahd a weak or injured hand that could not grip the pistol hard enough to depress and deactivate the grip safety then I seriously doubt he could grasp the pistol and cock the hammer back to bring it to fire.

Something for you to try if you carry the 1911 for personal defense - disable your shooting hand (only for the test, not permanently) by taping two fingers together or taping hard enough around your palm and back of your hand so that you can't hold on tightly to the 1911, which is what a disabled hand would suffer, the inability to hold tightly to a pistol - under those conditions you may not be able to depress the grip safety or retain the pistol during recoil. You should try that with only one round in the gun so that if you drop it you don't discover why they call it the 'half cock notch' instead of the 'half cock safety notch' on the 1911.

And as I recall the story, the Ranger had some, ummm, 'girth' to him and he carried the 1911 chambered, cocked and locked, and just stuffed into his waistband - that's when he was asked by the younger ranger if it wasn't dangerous........ and that's all I know................ Mikey.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #14 on:** July 31, 2008, 01:58:17 AM »

Most semi auto handgun you will carry will be cocked. Only exceptions are double action only guns. the differnce on a 1911 is that the hammer is exposed where in most guns its not. the advantage to a 1911 is unlike some guns that just rely on a saftey to lock the hammer and 1911 has a grip safety also. there as safe as any gun to carry. the only thing i will add is that with a 1911 you need to throughly test the holster you are using. I had to pitch a couple because they had a tendency to pop the safety off. This happened only with gun with amadextirous (spelling) safteys. that is a safety lever on both sides of the gun.

Savage · « **Reply #15 on:** July 31, 2008, 02:34:34 AM »

Lloyd,
Had a Gould & Goodrich leather thumb break duty rig that would somehow off the safety on my Pro Carry. That one didn't have an ambi safety. To be honest, I didn't worry about it a whole lot. No way it could go off in the holster with the trigger covered and the hammer blocked by the retention strap. Any time I had to draw it, I naturally swept the safety off with the shooting hand thumb anyway. Carry 1911s IWB frequently these days, I consider the 1911 to be mechanically much safer than the Glocks I had to carry.
Savage

williamlayton · « **Reply #16 on:** July 31, 2008, 09:34:42 AM »

Mikey
You could be right. That is the story on the "official" Texas Ranger web and at the museum in Waco---------NOW, you wouldn't call a Ranger a liar OR far be it for any TEXAN worth his salt too expand on the truth, would you.
My story sounds gooder.

Blessings

44 Man · « **Reply #17 on:** July 31, 2008, 11:35:49 AM »

Most people think nothing of carrying a Ruger .22 semi auto around in the woods. It's cocked and locked, you just can't see the hammer! Learn the drill, practice, and don't worry about it. Get a holster with a retaining strap that goes over the hammer if you still have misgivings. 44 Man

The business guns are ALWAYS cocked and locked.

Flint · « **Reply #18 on:** July 31, 2008, 04:37:58 PM »

I have similar experience as Lloyd, a holster that kicked off the thumb safety on my Combat Commander. I had put on an extended safety, and the leather strap/snap that goes betweenb the hammer and the slide to retain the pistol would press the safety down while carrying. This is a leather Bianchi inside the pants holster. I replaced the safety with the original Colt part, but sharpened the corner the spring and plunger press against. The safety now stays on, and though it is slightly harder to disengage the safety, that should be a deliberate act anyway.

I didn't approve of cocked and unlocked, as the grip safety is engaged in order to draw the pistol.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #19 on:** August 01, 2008, 01:44:23 AM »

yes you are usually activating the grip safety release when you draw. But you still have the main safety and even if that has moved to off a guy should never have his finger on the trigger when drawing his weapon anyway. Look at a glock it basicaly is carried with no safety other then the one on the trigger. Draw that one and have something brush the trigger or draw it and inadvertantly put your finger on the trigger and youll find out as many have what a dangerous gun they can be and there one of the most commonly carried self defense and police carried weapons in the country. A 1911 carried cock and locked is MUCH safer!!

Old Syko · « **Reply #20 on:** August 01, 2008, 02:45:38 AM »

I see so many people who think nothing of carrying a rifle or shotgun with a chambered round and the safety on yet have misgivings about a 1911. Some Remington 700s would discharge when the safety was disconnected (usually only after improper trigger adjustment) and Mark 10 actions have been known to have a safety stop screw come loose rendering the safety inoperable without anyone knowing it had happened until they heard the shot, and so on. When you actually take a look at the inner workings of the 1911 it becomes very clear as to just how close to idiot proof the design actually is compared to other firearms most put so much trust in.

Savage · « **Reply #21 on:** August 01, 2008, 04:32:15 AM »

As others have said, it's the visable hammer that gets in their head. I had dozens of persons sidle up and quietly inform me that my pistol was cocked when carrying a 1911 as a duty gun.

I don't see how anyone concerned with the safety of condition one carry with a 1911, could be ok with carrying a Glock/M&P/XD, or any other striker fired pistol without a manual safety. I frequently carry Glocks, but it is second nature to me to keep my finger clear of the trigger unless the situtation dictates otherwise. To each his own!
Savage

SharonAnne · « **Reply #22 on:** August 01, 2008, 12:30:24 PM »

Chamber a round in your favorite bolt action rifle and apply the safety. Golly gee. It is 'cocked and locked'. Somehow that is okay to most folks but with the 1911 it isn't. Go figure. Same with the AR15, 870,1100. These are all carried 'cocked and locked'. The folks who have a problem with a 1911 carried in condition 1 need a reality check. All of these firearms are perfectly safe to carry 'cocked and locked' if properly adjusted. It it the home gunsmith that 'tunes' (buggered up) the mechanism that brings any into disrepute.

1911crazy · « **Reply #23 on:** August 01, 2008, 01:53:46 PM »

I carry it chambered, cocked and locked now when i carry any of my 1911/1911a1's.

There was a time when i was afraid to chamber it and lock it and carry it. I would push it into a shoulder holster not chambered, half cocked but with a full mag in it. In my tight holster the pistol chambered when i pushed it in. I had a habit of taking the pistol out at night, remove the mag and full cock it and pull the trigger on the empty chamber. One night something made me check the chamber so i ran the slide and a round popped out. Empty chamber so i thought? Ever since its chambered, cocked and locked. It was a tight holster so now i'm sure its loaded all the time. Its the only close call i have ever had in my 50 years of gun experience.

I really like the CZ pistols with there double action on the first round. You don't have to cock and lock it to have it in a safe mode.

I still carry my 1911's but i'm sure its safe now.

I was new to the 1911 with no one to really tell me how to carry it. It was life before the internet.

But i have seen them go off half cocked in holsters. One of my buddies did just that. Luckily the bullet lodged in floor joist beam in the basement of the gun shop. I have no clue as to how it happened.

So the moral of the story is "Chambered, Cocked and Locked" history proves that the safe mode.

Don't be bashfull too just ask on any gun forum if your not sure, Besafe Godbless.

Here's a grip safety test too. Take out the mag and run the slide to be sure its not chambered. Now don't touch the grip safety and shake or rattle the 1911 side to side while pulling the trigger while its cocked and not locked. If the gun fires on the second or third rattle the grip safety spring needs to be changed. I have seen this happen on the well used 1911's. I don't trust safety's anyway but i still want it to be in working order.

Bigbuck · « **Reply #24 on:** August 08, 2008, 01:32:34 AM »

From a pure mechanical failure standpoint....I trust that chunk of metal making up the grip safety and the manual safety much more than the little machined mechanism holding back the striker on a striker fired pistol.....

S.B. · « **Reply #25 on:** September 07, 2008, 05:16:49 AM »

Cocked and locked is what is know as condition 3, and (in my opinion) the only way to carry a single action 1911. Depressing the grip safety and flicking the thumb safety off is actually part of gripping the gun correctly, not separate moves.
Mikey, the hammer won't allow the thumb safety to be engaged with the hammer all the way down or in half cocked position. I can remember a long time back when a young man name Thell Reid went into the Marine Corps and shot exhibition for them as a recruitment stunt, he could carry his government issue 1911 in the then issue full flap holster and have the chamber empty, and draw the gun/rest the front sight on the leading edge of his holster/push it down to cock the gun and shoot in less than 1 second? Thell Ried was a phenomenal shooter and got the Marines several recruits in the process.
I can remember thinking as a young j** h***d, how unsafe this was?
I knew a MP who while in South Vietnam was instructed to carry his 1911 with chamber loaded and hammer in half cocked position(condition 2).

SharonAnne · « **Reply #26 on:** September 07, 2008, 07:54:43 AM »

according to the web page, The Sight M1911, the 'Condition' rating, as established by Jeff Cooper is:

Condition 0- round chambered, hammer cocked, safety off

Condition 1- round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on ie: "cocked and locked"

Condition 2- round chambered, hammer down

Condition 3- empty chamber, hammer down, full magazine in pistol

Condition 4- chamber empty, hammer down, mag well empty

Mikey · « **Reply #27 on:** September 09, 2008, 12:44:00 AM »

OK, I know I'm gonna get into trouble for this one but, Cooper was a Marine and finally figured out that when he realized he couldn't count straight he went to a color scheme.

Sorry, just my irreveance coming through so early inna morning.

Here's what I have learned about conditions: 0 beers and she couldn't care less what you have to say; 1 beer and she might be willing to listen; two beers and she is startin' to warm up to you; 3 beers and she has developed intentions on your bod; 4 beers and she is startin' to look pretty good; 5 beers and she has you in a headlock and you promise to ask for parental consent; and after 6 beers you realize your world has just come to an end when she introduces you to her father, Colonel Jeff Cooper...................

Sorry, just hadda throw that one in there................. Mikey.

Mikey · « **Reply #28 on:** September 09, 2008, 12:49:36 AM »

S.B. - you're right, that safety can't be activated with the hammer down. Mikey.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #29 on:** September 09, 2008, 06:01:55 AM »

cute Mikey.

the color scheme was addressing levels of personal awareness, not ready condition of the 1911