Cheney, Neocons Considered Killing Americans in Pretext to Attack Iran

[zombiewolf]

Could this have been how the plane(s) could strike such a precise location?

Veteran pilots couldn't even do it on a simulation!

The terrorists just got lucky?

(wow, the quote function really freaked out on me this time.. )

[deltecs]

A building hit by a jet liner which exploded on impact throughout its path would explode or erupt, not implode.  

by deltecs  Yes, if you are proved right that terrorists did not commit this heinous crime, I'll be the first to acknowledge my mistake with a public apology. 

  I think this answers your last question to your last post.  Again you have ingored the facts with attacks.

 

 by TM7...  Essentially when viewing these building's demolition on video we are seeing building eruptions, like dust fountains with the projection of literally tons of steel members thrown hundreds of yards.

And I'm done in attempts to converse with you.

[deltecs]

The twin towers of WTC collapsed in nearly an identical manner when the aircraft hit them.  That is logical, since both were designed for, used the same materials, and constructed alike.  Yet, one tower supposedly blew upward after the impact while the other tower did not.  If explosives were used to demolish the building, why didn't both towers blow up nearly alike?  They did not, so some other answer must explain the discrepancy.  This discrepancy could be the same, whether explosives were used or the explosion from the aircraft, could have acheived the same and actual results.  It is another logical answer to the identical question as posed.  Yet, the glass is half emptys', would have one believe otherwise due bias and preconceived conclusions that their answer is the only logical one.  Both sufficiently answer the discrepancy, one in agreement with official versions and other based on conjecture without any investigation whatsoever, only skepticism and desire to involve the administration or elements in government. 

[ironglow]

  Darn it !
  Ben Laden and his boys keeps going around the world, trying to attend Sunday School classes;
  but those doggone Christians, Jews and neocons keep framing them with propaganda..and then
  use that as an excuse to bomb them !
  They went to OZ, Shangri-La and Kansas, they even tried to get lost with Alice in Wonderland
  each wearing polka-dot birkas..but those hateful Christians, Jews and neocons..search them out & ZAP 'em.. 

[Swampman]

Lots of aircraft parts.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/aircraftpartsnyc911

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

But no black helicopters???

[ms]

SWAMPMAN YOU KNOW INFORMATION FROM THE INTERNET IS BS. HO I FORGOT IT'S ONLY GOOD WHEN YOU GET IT !

[ironglow]

Not being an expert, I went to do a bit of research...

Boeing 767 holds 23.980 gallons
They were fuled for cross-country flight plus alternate plus reserve... likely fully fueled...

From Popular Mechanics website-
"Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength — and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down." "



Ahhhh heck, I'm not gonna argue with those who want to read conspiracies into almost EVERY act that started a war by every county in the 20th century.  Of course there was a conspiracy, ONE country or a groups of countries wanted to take over another country or even the whole world!!!  They had to conspire!  War doesn't just happen.  It has to be planned, down to the minute in some cases...   Ya'll can read the story at Popluar Mechanics called "Debunking the 9/11 Myths"


later,
ngh

   NOGUNSHERE:
                             Amazing how great minds move in like circles !
   If you guys want to see something interesting; just go to the  TODAY'S IMPORTANT NEWS forum here on Graybeard's.
  There is a thread there entitled ....     <   9/11 Conspiracy, NOT   >
  Then go to post # 26 where as a working blacksmith, I explained the weakening of steel and how the heat of burning fuel could
   collapse the whole towers...
    It was posted many days ago and is so close to the explanation the structural steel engineer you cited put forth...it is almost
   as eerie as some of the conspiracy stories told around here..just check it out !...And STILL some don't get it !

      TODAY's IMPORTANT NEWS....9/11 Conspiracy, NOT....post #26

[Swampman]

SWAMPMAN YOU KNOW INFORMATION FROM THE INTERNET IS BS. HO I FORGOT IT'S ONLY GOOD WHEN YOU GET IT !

Just the invented information from conspiracy nut job websites is BS.  The rest is pretty good well documented info with pics to back it up.

[superhornet]

NO GUNS HERE---please do not interrupt this conversation with verifiable facts about the heat factors effecting steel beams and attach plates causing them to sag, buckle and the building to fall.  It disrupts some peoples ridiculous therories. ho ho ho

[Swampman]

TM7 you're totally hopeless.  Our country has enough real problems without inventing stuff.  Everything about 9/11 is quite well documented and there's no question about what happened.  All the stuff you've suggested doesn't exist, does exist.  There is no smoking gun.

[Swampman]

In this instance, there is no reason to suspect a self inflicted attack.  The facts are very clear about what happened.

[rex6666]

It is very obvious that tm is way too smart, knows way too much, that he CAN prove but just
hasn't as of yet. tm tell us how you got all the people that it took to pull this off and how have
you managed to keep them all quite for so long. Maybe tm was in on the deal.
If the planes didn't have any thing to do with the buildings coming down, why use them, just
bomb them and say johnny did it.
If a trained pilot could not hit one of the towers, how in the world can they hit a run way.
You can sit at DFW airport and watch pilots center punch the marks on the runways, all day.
Yeah the report says the Towers were built this way, we should believe this.
The report says the towers were knocked down by planes, we should not believe this.
tm would please list witch reports we should believe, so don't have to read the others.
that way we can all be your sheeple.

[zombiewolf]

http://patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html


Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force  – Retired commercial pilot.  Flew for Pan Am and United Airlines for 35 years.  Aircraft flown: Boeing 707, 720, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, and 777.  30,000+ total hours flown.  Had previously flown the actual two United Airlines aircraft that were hijacked on 9/11 (Flight 93, which impacted in Pennsylvania, and Flight 175, the second plane to hit the WTC). Former U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions.

    * Video interview 9/11 Ripple Effect 8/07: "I flew the two actual aircraft which were involved in 9/11; the Fight number 175 and Flight 93, the 757 that allegedly went down in Shanksville and Flight 175 is the aircraft that's alleged to have hit the South Tower. I don't believe it's possible for, like I said, for a terrorist, a so-called terrorist to train on a [Cessna] 172, then jump in a cockpit of a 757-767 class cockpit, and vertical navigate the aircraft, lateral navigate the aircraft, and fly the airplane at speeds exceeding it's design limit speed by well over 100 knots, make high-speed high-banked turns, exceeding -- pulling probably 5, 6, 7 G's.  And the aircraft would literally fall out of the sky.  I couldn't do it and I'm absolutely positive they couldn't do it."  http://americanbuddhist.net


    * Article 7/17/05:  "The government story they handed us about 9/11 is total B.S. plain and simple." … Wittenberg convincingly argued there was absolutely no possibility that Flight 77 could have "descended 7,000 feet in two minutes, all the while performing a steep 280 degree banked turn before crashing into the Pentagon's first floor wall without touching the lawn."…

      "For a guy to just jump into the cockpit and fly like an ace is impossible - there is not one chance in a thousand," said Wittenberg, recalling that when he made the jump from Boeing 727's to the highly sophisticated computerized characteristics of the 737's through 767's it took him considerable time to feel comfortable flying." http://www.arcticbeacon.com


    * Audio Interview 9/16/04: Regarding Flight 77, which allegedly hit the Pentagon.  "The airplane could not have flown at those speeds which they said it did without going into what they call a high speed stall.  The airplane won’t go that fast if you start pulling those high G maneuvers at those bank angles. … To expect this alleged airplane to run these maneuvers with a total amateur at the controls is simply ludicrous...

      It’s roughly a 100 ton airplane.  And an airplane that weighs 100 tons all assembled is still going to have 100 tons of disassembled trash and parts after it hits a building.  There was no wreckage from a 757 at the Pentagon. … The vehicle that hit the Pentagon was not Flight 77.  We think, as you may have heard before, it was a cruise missile." http://911underground.com


    * Editor's note: For more information on the impact at the Pentagon, see General Stubblebine, Colonel Nelson, Commander Muga, Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski, Lt. Col. Latas, Major Rokke, Capt. Davis, Barbara Honegger, April Gallop, Colonel Bunel, and Steve DeChiaro.

[Casull]

I don't believe it's possible for, like I said, for a terrorist, a so-called terrorist to train on a [Cessna] 172, then jump in a cockpit of a 757-767 class cockpit, and vertical navigate the aircraft, lateral navigate the aircraft, and fly the airplane at speeds exceeding it's design limit speed by well over 100 knots, make high-speed high-banked turns, exceeding -- pulling probably 5, 6, 7 G's.  And the aircraft would literally fall out of the sky.  I couldn't do it and I'm absolutely positive they couldn't do it." 

Can't be done . . . . . yet we all saw it being done on television.  How odd.   

[Casull]

Oh yes, don't forget the thousands of on-the-ground eye witnesses who also saw it happening.  Yet, it can't be done.  I don't understand.   

[Swampman]

Capt Wittenberg just wanted his 15 min. of fame, and was willing to say anything to get it.  It happened, and there were plenty of aircraft parts there to prove it happened.

[Casull]

Casull....were you there and did you actually see airplanes hit the towers, or talk to anyone who did..?

TM7, I thought you were a little smarter than that.  Guess I was wrong.  I saw it happening on television AND I saw dozens of eye witnesses talking about it on television.  No, I didn't talk to them (I'm betting that you haven't talked to any of the leftwing moonbats that you cite to so often either), since I live about 1,200 miles from New York.  You know what, I also wasn't on the moon when the first landing was made (I was about 7 at the time), but I believe that happened as well.  How about you?   

[TribReady]

Moon landing?  Did you have to bring that up too?  Heeeere we go.........            

[Swampman]

My sister-in-law saw the second plane hit, while watching the first tower burn.  I'll accept her word.

[Swampman]

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

[Casull]

My sister-in-law saw the second plane hit, while watching the first tower burn.  I'll accept her word.

So TM7, you just going to ignore Swampman?  As to all of your questions, are you a video expert, munitions expert, pilot, yadda, yadda, yadda?  Better loosen the tinfoil a bit, it appears to be cutting off the flow to your brain.   

[Swampman]

My sister-in-law wasn't watching TV.  Her office was right across the water from the twin towers.  She saw the second plane hit while the first tower was burning from the first hit.  It happened.

[Casull]

John Lear – Retired commercial airline pilot with over 19,000+ total hours flown in over 100 different types of planes for 10 different airlines in 60 different countries around the world.  Flew for over 40 years.  Holds every certificate ever offered by the FAA and has 23 different FAA type ratings.  Held 17 world records including speed around the world in a Lear Jet Model 24, set in 1966.  He was presented with the PATCO award for outstanding airmanship in 1968, and the Symons Wave memorial.  Flight experience includes Boeing 707 and 727, McDonnell Douglas DC-8, Lockheed L-1011 and many others.  Son of Bill Lear, founder of Lear Jet Corp.
Audio interview with Rob Balsamo 3/9/07:  Regarding the Flight Data Recorder information for Flight 77, which allegedly hit the Pentagon, released by the NTSB

John Lear:  There's a lot things in that tape that came up, that if you're a pilot, you say, "Hey, wait a minute.  That's bull****.   That could never happen in a million years." ...

Rob Balsamo:  What did you think about 9/11 after you saw it?

John Lear:  Well, you know, five minutes after it happened, I knew that it was a scam. ... No Boeing 757 ever crashed into the Pentagon.  No Boeing 757 ever crashed at Shanksville. ... And no Arab hijacker, ever in a million years, ever flew into the World Trade Center.  And if you got 30 minutes I'll tell you exactly why he couldn't do it the first time.  Now, I'd have trouble doing it the first time.  

Rob Balsamo:  Yeah, same here.

John Lear:  Maybe if I had a couple tries to line up a few building, I could have done it.  But certainly not the first time and certainly not at 500 or 600 miles an hour.

Talk about koolaid TM7.  According to your superpilot nobody could do it first try, not even him.  Well again, I saw it happening.  So even Mr. superpilot couldn't do it without a few practice tries.  Exactly how do you go about making practice runs at a suicide dive into a building?  Seems to me you only get one shot at it.  I just don't understand you.  People on the ground witnessing it, live video of it happening in the largest city in the country (not in some desolate area with no witnesses), and you don't believe it because a handful of quacks say it can't be done.  Well, I've got to say I'm giving up.  It's kind of like hitting a dead jackass in the head with a board to try to get it to move.  Sorry to get rude on you, but seems like you have been doing that all along with your snipey comments about koolaid and people not being able to see your "truth".  Live long and prosper Mr. Spock.  Sheeeeesh.

[wgr]

if you have a 100 ton plane crash like they did into the twin towers you wont have much left it was hot enough to melt most of it and burn up alot like seats and things. and buy the was i don't think its was bombs them heard going off it was explosions big difference.

[Casull]

Dude....I thought you would have figured this out by now. Ever here of remote control flight.

Dude, you really need to slow down on that koolaid.  Soooooooooooo, no human alive could pull off this stunt with their hands on the actual controls (according to your "experts"), but somebody is going to do it by remote control.  Seriously, lay off the dope before your brain turns to complete mush.  ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[deltecs]

Speaking of remote controlled flight, how is then, that we don't use it for the last decade on on aircraft flights.  Just think, news have reported pilots flying asleep, reduced visibility has detoured planes to alternate landing sites, and high jacked aircraft taken to
Beruit.and Libya and elsewhere.  If remote controlled flight was so accurate it could out perform expert pilots, then why isn't it being used constantly to protect the passengers from these scenarios already.  If remote controlled aircraft are so precise to hit a particular elevation on a building by determing the actual floor, it is accurate enough for landing.  On a high jacked aircraft, the pilot would not control of the plane and remote controllers could land the plane anywhere it desired within the fuel range.  Remote controlled aircraft is not installed on civilian airliners currently, so one must conclude it is not accurate enough to wrest control from the pilots.  

But there again, we have the little green men from Mars that used an X ray gun pointed at the aircraft to pilot it and determine a very precise impact area to justify government involvement and cover up the Zionist money trail, thus blaming Al Quida and its leaders.  The economy was beginning to slow down, so we created a war with them by spending billions of dollars, just so other countries could be removed from the poverty level and increase domestic production and gain needed highway revenue with the resultant high prices of fuel.  Sound logical to me, anyone else buy it?  

[billy_56081]

All this supposition, opinion and downright wild guessing and not one darn shred of actual evidence! Geez you X files junkies will go out on a limb to try to prove your points. You guys better contact Mulder and Scully ( oh wait they are just fictional chaicters ).

And come on True Muslim I will be serving the kool aid, and nope I aint gonna be the one drinking it.

No planes, remote controlled planes, cruise missile, bombs planted ahead of the time. WHere will it end? Maybe they used the space lasers too.

Conspiracy smiracy, 2 people can't keep a sectret and I am expected to believe that hundreds, possibly thousands were involved in this one and no one has cracked? And wouldn't anyone or anything that was large enough to pull off a project as large as this supposed "conspiracy" was would silence some of these little unknown nobodys that have so much supposed "proof"?

I'm thinking somebodys kool aid contains a lil too much LSD.

[lrs]

I would probably fall into the category of a conspiracy theorist, of sorts.  I do not believe the Warren Commision report, I think the Branch Davidians were murdered, and I do not believe mainstream media carries out the role it was intended for. 
But I do believe we were attacked by terrorists on 9/11/2001. 

[zombiewolf]

Capt Wittenberg just wanted his 15 min. of fame, and was willing to say anything to get it.  It happened, and there were plenty of aircraft parts there to prove it happened.

There are at least 50 pilots on the site I linked, who apparently wanted their 15 minuets of fame.....phooee on being Navy commanders and what not....here's just a few


Rob Balsamo – Commercial airline pilot.  Co-founder, Pilots for 9/11 Truth.  4,000+ total hours flown.

Glen Stanish – Commercial airline pilot for American Airlines, ATA, TWA, and Continental.  15,000+ total hours flown.  Aircraft flown: Boeing 737, McDonnell Douglas MD-80.  Co-founder, Pilots for 9/11 Truth.

John Lear  – Retired commercial airline pilot with over 19,000+ total hours flown in over 100 different types of planes for 10 different airlines in 60 different countries around the world.  Flew for over 40 years.  Holds every certificate ever offered by the FAA and has 23 different FAA type ratings.  Held 17 world records including speed around the world in a Lear Jet Model 24, set in 1966.  He was presented with the PATCO award for outstanding airmanship in 1968, and the Symons Wave memorial.  Flight experience includes Boeing 707 and 727, McDonnell Douglas DC-8, Lockheed L-1011 and many others.  Son of Bill Lear, founder of Lear Jet Corp.

Commander Ralph Kolstad, U.S. Navy (ret)  – Retired commercial airline captain with 27 years experience.  Aircraft flown: Boeing 727, 757 and 767, McDonnell Douglas MD-80, and Fokker F-100.  Retired fighter pilot.  Former Air Combat Instructor, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School (Topgun).  20-year Navy career.  Aircraft flown: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, and Grumman F-14 Tomcat.  23,000+ total hours flown.

Capt. Ross "Rusty" Aimer, BS Aerospace Maintenance Engineering – Retired commercial airline pilot, flying for United Airlines, Continental, Lufthansa, Cargolux, Iran Air, and Tower Air.  Had previously flown the actual two United Airlines aircraft that were hijacked on 9/11 (Flight 93, which impacted in Pennsylvania, and Flight 175, the second plane to hit the WTC).  Served as Member of the Board of Directors, Master Executive Council, and Chairman of the Local Scheduling Committee of the 66,00 member Airline Pilots Association.  Currently Chief Executive Officer of an aviation consulting company.  Certified airframe and powerplant mechanic.  Aircraft flown: Boeing 777, 767, 757, 747, 737, 727, 720, 707, and McDonnell Douglas DC-10, DC-9, DC-8F.  30,000+ total hours flown. 40 year professional aviation career.

Joel M. Skousen  – Commercial pilot.  Former U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot.  Aircraft flown: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, Grumman F-9 Cougar, North American T-2C Buckeye, various civilian planes.  Member, Experimental Aircraft Association.  Member, Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association.  Former Chairman of the Conservative National Committee in Washington DC and Executive Editor of Conservative Digest.  Author of Essential Principles for the Conservation of Liberty (1984), The Secure Home--Architectural Design, Construction and Remodeling of Self-Sufficient Residences and Retreats (1982, 1999),  How to Implement a High Security Shelter in the Home (1996), Strategic Relocation--North American Guide to Safe Places (1998), Foundations of the Ideal State (2007).

Joel M. Skousen  – Commercial pilot.  Former U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot.  Aircraft flown: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, Grumman F-9 Cougar, North American T-2C Buckeye, various civilian planes.  Member, Experimental Aircraft Association.  Member, Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association.  Former Chairman of the Conservative National Committee in Washington DC and Executive Editor of Conservative Digest.  Author of Essential Principles for the Conservation of Liberty (1984), The Secure Home--Architectural Design, Construction and Remodeling of Self-Sufficient Residences and Retreats (1982, 1999),  How to Implement a High Security Shelter in the Home (1996), Strategic Relocation--North American Guide to Safe Places (1998), Foundations of the Ideal State (2007).

Commander Ted Muga, BS CE, U.S. Navy (ret) – Retired Pan-Am commercial airline pilot.  Aircraft flown: Boeing 707 and 727.  Retired Civil Engineer.  Retired Naval aviator.  Aircraft flown: Grumman E-1 Tracer and E-2 Hawkeye.

Col. George Nelson, MBA, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Licensed commercial pilot.  Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority.  Graduate, U.S. Air Force War College.  34-year Air Force career. Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic.

[Swampman]

"Earlier I asked a question how a citizen could discern a real attack from a false flag or self inflicted attack.  Do you have any ideas on this topic.?"

They look at the evidence.  They eliminate the far fetched, they realize the government had no reason to lie, and they come to the conclusion that a Republican President is their friend.

If a Democrat is in charge they assume that everything is a lie and a cover up.  That's always been the case.