Decision on a Black bear rifle

[Ehumes83]

Hello every one, ive been hunting whitetail and turkey for years and living in indiana thats about all you can really hunt (other than upland game). but in the fall of 2010 am planning a black bear hunt possibly in maine. i am planning on purchasing a new rifle and am having trouble deciding a caliber and rifle to go with.  i have narrowed it down to 3 rifles and calibers.   one is the Tikka T3 chambered in 338 win mag, the next is the remington 750 in the 35 whelen and the last is the Marlin xlr in the 444 marlin. i have researched all of the calibers and rifles and all seem to be sufficant but cant come to a conclusion on which one would be best for my situation. any info on pros and cons would be very helpful.

thanks,
E

[kevthebassman]

If it were my choice, I'd go with the Marlin.

[Redhawk1]

I have hunted a number of black bear in Maine and Canada, and never have I had to shoot over 70 yards, 90% was under 30 yards. In my opinion the 338 and 35 Whelen are not the right cartridge for the job. Not that they will not work, they will kill a black bear just fine.  Given the choice of the round you listed, I would go with the 444 Marlin. Use a good hard cast bullet in the 300 to 325 gr. range.  But there is a better choice in my opinion, and that would be a Marlin in 45-70 with a 405 gr. hard cast bullet.

But if you are stuck on the 3 choices you gave, get the 444 Marlin.

[blackbear]

.450 Marlin.

[Redhawk1]

.450 Marlin.

If you reload, the 450 has not advantage over the 45-70. For what ever reason, the 450 never caught my attention.

[blackbear]

So you would have to load your own ammo, hotter than factory ammo to get the results from a 45-70 to equal factory .450 Marlin ammo? Wonder what you could do with .450 Marlin hand loaded ammo.

[ms]

7600 model 30/06 180 grain bullet

[yooper77]

What do you have for a deer rifle already on hand, any of them will do the job.

270 Winchester with 140, 150, 160 grain bullets.
280 Remington with 140, 150, 160, 175 grain bullets.
30-30 Winchester with 150, 170 grain bullets.
308 Winchester with 150, 165, 180 grain bullets.
30-06 Springfield with 150, 165, 180, 200, 220 grain bullets.

From your list I would choose the 35 Whelen with 225 - 250 grain bullets, also excellent for Elk, Moose and Grizzly.

yooper77

[Graybeard]

Since he has previously hunted only turkey and upland game it's likely safe to assume he has no suitable big game rifle on hand to use.

I agree the .444 Marlin is adequate it wouldn't be my first choice. Still a lever gun in .444 Marlin, .45-70 or the .450 Marlin and certainly you could toss in the .35 Remington as well would all get the job done over bait. The .338 Winchester is gross over kill for black bear over bait and since you likely are not an experienced rifle shooter all ready the recoil level is likely to be more than you want to learn to shoot.

To me the .35 Whelen would be an ideal choice also excellent for most any other hunting you might chose to do but again is really over kill for black bear over bait.

I'd really strongly suggest you rethink your cartridge choice list. A .308 or .30-06 would be far better choices with recoil more suitable for learning to shoot a big game rifle. The .338 Federal or .358 Winchester would also be excellent options but at a bit higher recoil level not far from that of the Whelen.

[Redhawk1]

So you would have to load your own ammo, hotter than factory ammo to get the results from a 45-70 to equal factory .450 Marlin ammo? Wonder what you could do with .450 Marlin hand loaded ammo.

I am not trying to start a pi$$ing contest here. But the 45-70 will out perform the 450 Marlin in handloads. The 45-70 has a larger case capacity over the 450 Marlin. If you did a little homework you would know this.

The only reason Marlin came out with the 450 Marlin was to have a rifle chambered, that would use hotter "factory" ammo. The 45-70 "Factory" ammo is rated for the trapdoor loads. It is a safety reason, not because the 45-70 can't handle it.The Marlin lever action rifle will handle the Marlin loads, the top loads in the Marlin loads are the bottom loads for the Ruger #1.
Also if someone wanted hot factory 45-70 ammo, Buffalo Bore, Cor-bon and a few others make hot ammo for the 45-70. Exceeding the 450 Marlin factory loads.

End of class.  

[Redhawk1]

Since he has previously hunted only turkey and upland game it's likely safe to assume he has no suitable big game rifle on hand to use.

I agree the .444 Marlin is adequate it wouldn't be my first choice. Still a lever gun in .444 Marlin, .45-70 or the .450 Marlin and certainly you could toss in the .35 Remington as well would all get the job done over bait. The .338 Winchester is gross over kill for black bear over bait and since you likely are not an experienced rifle shooter all ready the recoil level is likely to be more than you want to learn to shoot.

To me the .35 Whelen would be an ideal choice also excellent for most any other hunting you might chose to do but again is really over kill for black bear over bait.

I'd really strongly suggest you rethink your cartridge choice list. A .308 or .30-06 would be far better choices with recoil more suitable for learning to shoot a big game rifle. The .338 Federal or .358 Winchester would also be excellent options but at a bit higher recoil level not far from that of the Whelen.

Graybeard, I would have to agree, the .338 Federal is a good choice also. I don't know why people want to take a long range rifle on a short range hunt. I have seen some of the bear shot with high powered rifles, they blow extremely large holes in bear at short range.
That was why I suggested the 45-70, but if it came down to it, a shotgun with slugs would also be great bear medicine. I have seen a number of deer, bear and hogs fall to a single shot from a shotgun slug.

I know one guy that is taking a 300 RUM for his black bear hunt over bait, I think that is a good example of a long range gun for a shot range hunt. Not very smart in my opinion, and there is a lot better choices than that if you ask me.

My choices for black bear are, in the United States, a handgun from 45 Colt to 500 Mag, USA or Canada, rifle would be 45-70 or shotgun with slugs.

[blackbear]

So you would have to load your own ammo, hotter than factory ammo to get the results from a 45-70 to equal factory .450 Marlin ammo? Wonder what you could do with .450 Marlin hand loaded ammo.

I am not trying to start a pi$$ing contest here. But the 45-70 will out perform the 450 Marlin in handloads. The 45-70 has a larger case capacity over the 450 Marlin. If you did a little homework you would know this.

The only reason Marlin came out with the 450 Marlin was to have a rifle chambered, that would use hotter "factory" ammo. The 45-70 "Factory" ammo is rated for the trapdoor loads. It is a safety reason, not because the 45-70 can't handle it.The Marlin lever action rifle will handle the Marlin loads, the top loads in the Marlin loads are the bottom loads for the Ruger #1.
Also if someone wanted hot factory 45-70 ammo, Buffalo Bore, Cor-bon and a few others make hot ammo for the 45-70. Exceeding the 450 Marlin factory loads.

End of class. 

Redhawk1, If I knew my question would upset you I would not have asked.

[Mad Dog]

E,  I live in Indiana, also.  I hunt deer here, and use rifles for out of state hunts.  If you aren't going til 2010, why not hook yourself up with a PCR[pistol cartridge rifle], that you can use here to hunt deer with for the next 2 seasons, before you go on your bear hunt.  The average bear, in Maine is around 200 lbs., and one of these rifles would get the job done out to 100 yds. or so.  You could get a .45 LC, .44 mag. .454 casull, or a 500 S&W.  All of these will neatly kill a black bear[dogs or bait].  Use premium bullets, and practice on our deer, before you go.  Just my thoughts.

Mad Dog

[blackbear]

Mad Dog, Sounds like a very good idea.

[Redhawk1]

So you would have to load your own ammo, hotter than factory ammo to get the results from a 45-70 to equal factory .450 Marlin ammo? Wonder what you could do with .450 Marlin hand loaded ammo.

I am not trying to start a pi$$ing contest here. But the 45-70 will out perform the 450 Marlin in handloads. The 45-70 has a larger case capacity over the 450 Marlin. If you did a little homework you would know this.

The only reason Marlin came out with the 450 Marlin was to have a rifle chambered, that would use hotter "factory" ammo. The 45-70 "Factory" ammo is rated for the trapdoor loads. It is a safety reason, not because the 45-70 can't handle it.The Marlin lever action rifle will handle the Marlin loads, the top loads in the Marlin loads are the bottom loads for the Ruger #1.
Also if someone wanted hot factory 45-70 ammo, Buffalo Bore, Cor-bon and a few others make hot ammo for the 45-70. Exceeding the 450 Marlin factory loads.

End of class. 

Redhawk1, If I knew my question would upset you I would not have asked.

blackbear,
Your question did not upset me one bit, that is just your perception. I was just giving you information. You are the one that brought up the 450 Marlin, so I  assumed you knew about the 450 Marlin, and I thought you might want some information on it compaired to the 45-70.  Most people assume the 450 Marlin is more powerful than the 45-70, and it is not. Just in common factory loadings.

Mag dog premium bullets are not needed on black bear, I only use hard cast bullets and they work great. And yes anything from 45 Colt to 500 Mag will work well on black bear.

[Mad Dog]

Would tend to agree that premium bullets aren't needed on an average black bear, but he could run into a bigger one, and if he is using the lowere end of the cartridges I mentioned[ie: 44 mag, 45 LC], the premium bullet could give him an edge.  Not needed on deer, but won't hurt on bear.

I too have a .45-70, its a marlin GG.  I've taken bear and hogs with it, and just returned from south africa, about 3 wks. ago, where I used it on plains game.  The bullet?  300 gr. nosler partition.

Mad Dog

[Redhawk1]

Mad Dog, I agree 100%. If someone was going to use a hollow point factory round or a soft point bullet, I would recommend a premium bullets over them. But if someone reloads, I highly recommend a hard cast bullet.
When I black bear hunt, I load up for big bear, but it works well on smaller bear as well. 

[blackbear]

Would tend to agree that premium bullets aren't needed on an average black bear, but he could run into a bigger one, and if he is using the lowere end of the cartridges I mentioned[ie: 44 mag, 45 LC], the premium bullet could give him an edge.  Not needed on deer, but won't hurt on bear.

I too have a .45-70, its a marlin GG.  I've taken bear and hogs with it, and just returned from south africa, about 3 wks. ago, where I used it on plains game.  The bullet?  300 gr. nosler partition.

Mad Dog

That says it all. An average caliber for an average Black Bear. A record book Black Bear can take a solid hit from an "average" caliber and die far away from the bait site in the thickest stuff he can find, with little or no blood trail.

[EdinCT]

  I am no expert on black bear as I have only shot one and have seen one other shot. They were spot and stalk bears on POW Alaska and were in the 380-400lb range.
I used a 45/70 with 300 gr Noslers at about 2100fps. I took a 40 ft shot one jump and he was dead. The roar he let out during that jump made Me wonder why I wanted to tee him off though.
  My friend shot one with a 340 Weatherby and 225gr Nosler accubonds at 140 or so yards and she took two shoots and went down behind a log. When we got there she was gone but after a short blood trail we had a bear coming out with a purpose. One more shoot with the 340 ended it.
  That said I guess I would ask you is the bear hunt the only big game you will ever hunt besides deer? If you even consider elk or moose in the far future I would rule out a 444 which is an awesome 200 yard rifle. The 35 Whelen is a great cart and useful for all game deer and up.
   I will also say that I bought a 338 win mag for my next trip but, I have experience with many different cartriges as I came for a shooting family and in the Ruger 77 with a lamiate stock with a Hiviz pad it isn't terribile recoil wise for me.
  I recommend that you use a good bullet and practice with whatever rifle you choose and you will kill your bear with any deer class rifle or bigger.

[Redhawk1]

Would tend to agree that premium bullets aren't needed on an average black bear, but he could run into a bigger one, and if he is using the lowere end of the cartridges I mentioned[ie: 44 mag, 45 LC], the premium bullet could give him an edge.  Not needed on deer, but won't hurt on bear.

I too have a .45-70, its a marlin GG.  I've taken bear and hogs with it, and just returned from south africa, about 3 wks. ago, where I used it on plains game.  The bullet?  300 gr. nosler partition.

Mad Dog

That says it all. An average caliber for an average Black Bear. A record book Black Bear can take a solid hit from an "average" caliber and die far away from the bait site in the thickest stuff he can find, with little or no blood trail.

blackbear, here is my take on the whole thing. When I go black bear hunting, I load up for "big" black bear. Personally I use a S&W 460 Mag, 454 Casull, 480 Ruger, 475 Linebaugh 510 GNR or 500 Mag, if I use a handgun and bullets in the 370 to 440 gr. range. If I use a rifle I would use my 45-70 with 405 gr. bullets. This is assuming, I am bait hunting or up close hunting. Now if I am in the open where longer shots are the norm, I would go with a 30-06 or 300 Win Mag, with a premium bullet of 180 gr. to 220 gr.

The biggest thing people leave out is shot placement. I like to take out the lungs and if the angle is right a shoulder in the process. All the black bear I have taken, were recovered in less than 30 yards and did not require a second shot. Shot placement and  good bullet construction is what kills bear. Good penetration and 2 large hole to let the blood out.

Always have enough gun is what I say. I don't believe there is such thing as over kill, but I believe there is such thing as the wrong gun for the game at hand.

[teddy12b]

I’ve never gotten a bear myself, I’ve tried, but screwed it up.  I have been fortunate to have seen what a 30-06 will do and what a shotgun slug will do.

Last year a hunting partner killed a bear with a 30-06 using 220gr bullets, and it was devastating.  I also saw another bear that had been shot by a slug, but only after it had been field dressed.  The shotgun hunter also shot at and wounded a bear earlier that week.  It’s not just the gun, it’s where the bullet goes.

I’m with the 30-06 crowd on this one for one main reason.  When you’re talking to a guide how do you positively know the distance you’re going to shooting before you get there?  

The guy I’m hunting with this year says the shots will be around 100 yards.  Well my 30-30 is running out of gas at that range and what if it’s actually 120 yards give or take.  Baited shots should be close and it should be an issue, but guides aren’t always that great at knowing accurate distances in my experience.

I know the shots will be close once you get to the stand, but what about on the way over?  You might be walking down a trail or drive around a corner and see something in the distance.  Odds are, if I even see a bear this year that it’ll be within 50 yards or less, but if I see the bear of a lifetime out to 300 yards I can make that shot.

Being an Indiana boy myself I’d also vote for a PCR.  I have a puma 44 mag that handles 320gr cast ammo without hesitation and holds 10 rounds.  

[yooper77]

OK, what does devastating mean when you are talking about the 30-06 Springfield and 220 grain bullets?

I have seen one 350lb sow taken over bait with a neck shot from a 243 Winchester and 100 grain bullet, I personally would choose it, but it worked with a well placed shot.

I have a 270 Winchester and 30-06 Springfield in a bolt action rifles and I wouldn't hesitate to use either for black bear and I would choose a well constructed bullet.

Over bait I feel my 30-06 Springfield with Hornady 220 grain interlock bullets would be ideal, also capable of 250 yards shots if needed.

I agree a 30-30 Winchester over 100 yard isn't the best choice, but over bait or treed with dogs and a 170 grain bullet is a nice neat package.

yooper77

[teddy12b]

When I say devastating I mean that the guys shot blew a hole through the bears throat about the size of my fist.  It wasn't a perfect shot behind the ribs, it connected right in the neck and it was just gruesome. 

I've shot 2 deer with remington 150gr corelokt ammo within 100 yards.  There was a tiny entry hole and never really found the exit holes. 

The bear that got shot by remington factory 220gr ammo had it's whole throat blown out.  It was dead as soon as the guy pulled the trigger.  From what I saw that heavy bullet do I don't have any doubts in any of the 220gr SP bullets in a 30caliber rifle.  My handloads that we're hunting with this year are all 220gr sierra prohunters and they're moving around 2300-2400 fps out of those guns.  The nice thing about 220 bullets is that if it looses half it's weight there's still another 110gr of lead moving right on through.

[yooper77]

I though that's what you meant, it's a super Moose/Elk bullets too.

Barnes used to make a 308 caliber 250 grain soft nose bullet, but its now been discontinued.

yooper77

[teddy12b]

Since last january I've been going to a range that has hanging steel plates at marked distances.  It's a really nice way to catch a glispe of the forces happening on impact.  The plates at 100 yards are fairly thick and heavy and when I saw the difference between a 30-30 and a 220gr 30-06 I knew what gun I was taking.  I don't doubt the 30-30 or any other reasonable guns ability to do the job, but my 30-06 can do the job both near and far without too much doping for drop.  It's just like anything else that has its advantages and disadvantages.  My 30-06 is a bolt gun and I'd rather use a lever action when hunting something that could bite back.

[wayne24]

I'm heading to Maine in 2 weeks and have gone back and forth on what gun to use.I  am going to take my ruger deerfield carbine 44 mag.Using my own hand loads 270 grain gold dot soft points over a hot load of h110.I am taking my 44 mag handi rifle as  back up with some310 gr. hard cast flat point .I think that either of these will work at the 30 to 50 yard distance from the stand over bait.My hunting partner is taking a 30-06. I think that at this yardage the 30-06 will be going to fast to expand and will just punch a 30 caliber hole.
Just my 2 cents,
Wayne

[Swampman]

Any deer rifle is a good black bear rifle.  Unless you just want a new rifle the .30-06 is perfect for anything in North America.   The .45-70 Marlin would be the best choice if you want a Marlin.

[teddy12b]

wayne24,
        What's your hunting buddy going to be using for ammo?  We're using 220gr soft point ammo, because it's the heaviest soft point bullets I could find.  I'm just speculating from what I've read, but at the higher speeds lighter bullets come apart more often.  I think the 220gr will mushroom out a little bit, but will more than likely punch right through the bear and that's exactly what I want.  A hole on both sides is exactly what I want.  I have a 44mag rifle that I thought about bring with us on this trip, but the guide wasn't too sure about the distances we'd be shooting.  He said about 100 yards, but who knows what that really means.

[Swampman]

I'd use 180 grain Remington Core-Lokts.

[teddy12b]

I like 180gr corelokts.  But if I know my shot is going to be less than 100 yards why not hit the target with the heaviest bullet I can find?