Decision on a Black bear rifle

[Swampman]

A Black Bear isn't hard to kill.  Any good deer bullet will work fine.

[Redhawk1]

A Black Bear isn't hard to kill.  Any good deer bullet will work fine.

Yes that is true, but almost all North American animals are not hard to kill, but using the proper bullet, good shot placement and big holes, makes for less tracking, better blood trails, and closer recoveries.

Use enough gun and shot placement. 

[teddy12b]

I would agree from what I've seen that animals aren't hard to kill, but they do present a challenge when you want them to drop right there as opposed to running off a ways.  I'd rather not have to track a bear like if I don't have to.

[Swampman]

The .30-06 is plenty for anything in North America, and has harvested pretty much everything that walks.  If you just want another rifle, that's fine.  Most of us would be better off learning to shoot what we have in an expert manner.  I know I would.  I have an 8 gun safe.  It keeps me from buying stuff I don't need. 

[Redhawk1]

The .30-06 is plenty for anything in North America, and has harvested pretty much everything that walks.  If you just want another rifle, that's fine.  Most of us would be better off learning to shoot what we have in an expert manner.  I know I would.  I have an 8 gun safe.  It keeps me from buying stuff I don't need. 

Who's talking about need? 

I have over 47 guns total and shoot them all very well. 

[teddy12b]

I used to have a lot more guns than I do now.  Now half of the guns I have left are up for sale or will be soon because of two reasons:  1.) the bigger reason is a baby on the way, and 2.) I am so impressed and captivated by my 30-06 and it'll do anything I could ever ask of a rifle.  (Keep an eye on the general classifides section in about a week for several guns if you're interested.)

I'd like to get to the point where I only have one rifle, one shotgun, one muzzloader, and one handgun.  Not because there aren't a hundreds of other guns I'd like to have, but because my 30-06 can do anything I'll ever need a rifle to do, my shotgun & muzzleloader will do anything I need, and a handgun is just nice to have around.

I've noticed with myself over the years that the more guns I have in my safe, the less I know each one.  Not that I can't shoot them all accurately, but when it comes to temperature changes & distance and knowing how the gun reacts to everything.  Everytime I think of getting another rifle, I just tell myself the old saying "beware of the man with only one rifle, he probably knows how to use it".  I think there's a lot of truth to that.

[Swampman]

Not much I can add to that.  It sums up where I at in my hunting ideaology.

"one rifle, one shotgun, one muzzloader, and one handgun."

I would add one .22 rifle. 

[Graybeard]

I've noticed with myself over the years that the more guns I have in my safe, the less I know each one.

 


That problem is easily enough solved by getting them out and using them. As an added bonus most of mine are basically clones of each other. My bolt actions are Remingtons and all operate alike so no matter which I pull out it's just like the rest other than chambering really so I have total familiarity with all of them. Much the same for my handguns really with S&W revolvers being the most dominate so all operate alike. My Glocks are as simple as it gets and not so unlike the revolvers ya just pull the trigger to make them go bang no odd ball safeties to fool with to make them work. Shotguns are Remington pump or semiautos I've used hundreds of thousands of shots over the years and are like extensions of myself or for target use Browning O/Us again I've used too many hundreds of thousands of times to need to think about what to do.

I do have a few single actions mostly Freedom Arms but some Ruger and they all operate basically the same as each other so again no real retraining needed and I have fired so many thousands of rounds thru single actions even tho I prefer DA guns that retraining is hardly needed when I pick one up. My lever rifles see much less use but it's not like I've forgotten how they work as I do use them enough to sorta remember and each of them works just like all the rest of them so it's not like I have to think about what to do with the particular one in my hand at the moment.

I feel quite intimately familiar with all my guns due to actually using them and no matter which is in my hands I really don't have to think about how it works.

[teddy12b]

I think you make a really great point espcially about keeping the guns similar to each other.  I think I need to expand on what I was getting at when I said "I've noticed with myself over the years that the more guns I have in my safe, the less I know each one."

When the gun cabinet was getting full I never felt like I didn't know how to operate each different type of gun, or how it functioned.  The part I didn't feel like I knew as well would be the ballistics of each different gun.  Knowing how the ballistics of my guns has been a new evolution in my personal shooting because I started going to a range that has targets farther out.  All the rifles in my safe are completely mastered when it comes to shooting at 100 yards or less, but at 200 yards I didn't really know what the 30-30, 308, 223, whatever would do.  At 100 yards there isn't much concern about wind, temp, humidity or whatever else and that's fine because that's where about all hunting takes place anyway.  In my mind I was having a hard time keeping track of "well this rifle does this and that rifle does that".  I'm more or less trying to use the K.I.S.S. method so I can keep it all straight in my mind. 

Now I know how my 30-06 will handle in different winds at different distances and where my hold overs are.  Knowing that kind of stuff has made me a more well rounded hunter and I freely admit that I have more to learn.  I'm constantly reminded that learning to shoot farther and better for hunting or targets is a journey and not a destination.

For me the joy of a full cabinet used to be variety of actions & calibers.  One day I might feel like an AR type of day, or maybe a lever action kind of mood, or a single shot, who knows.  The variety is what made shooting fun for me, but now I've just really been bitten by the longer range bug.  I'm not shooting for competition or money, I just really enjoy the challenge of it and friendly competitions.

I completely agree with the idea that I need a 22LR too!    Seems like the ammunition guys are trying to compete with the gasoline guys with outragious pricing.  I've been reading up on the GSG-5 22LR.  It looks like a fun gun, but it's going to have to wait.  $500 is too much for a 22 for me these days.

[wayne24]

The ammo my buddy is using is hornady 180 sst.

[Swampman]

"I completely agree with the idea that I need a 22LR too!"

Consider the CZ452 American, or the Ruger 10-22.

[Weatherman68]

I have been hunting bear in PA for the last couple of years.  I used an 8mm Mauser the first year and my .35 Whelen last year.  The guys I hunt with have been hunting Black bear for years both here and in Canada.  They all use 30-06 rifles with 180 grain bullets.  Both the 8mm Mauser and the 35 Whelen use bullets of a similar weight.  the 8mm was 196 grain and the 35 Whelen was 200.  So far I have not seen anything to shoot, but I am confident that either one will do the job.  I have a 45-70  Buff Classic too but the brush is so thick that the long barrel is a detriment to moving through it.  As others have said, shot placement is the most important thing.  Ensure that you spend some time at the range learning how the gun shoots and determing whch brand of ammo it digests the best so you can be confident when you pull the trigger.    Good luck and good hunting!!     

[Country Boy]

Get a Blr or Ruger hawkeye in .358 winchester. I shot 27 bear with one, no tracking required. The .35 whelen and .350 Remington mag kick too much in a tree. Load it with 48 grns of TAC and a .250 grn bullet. or 53 grns of 748

[woodsdweller]

 i am suprised no one has mentioned a 12 w/slug. even a 20ga. over bait. shots will be close and w/todays slug it would be perfect.

i have taken 4 bear here in the catskills. 2 w/archery equipment. 1 went 40 yards and expired the other 80 yards. 1 w/ a 25-06 w/ 120 partition droped on spot. she was almost head on quartering just a bit. hit just in front of left sholder and exiting out right rear hind. 2nd a 7mm mag 140 seria game king hit thru both front sholders and went 30 yrds.

the answer is a well placed shot. good bullet and a bow/or firearm you are comfortable with.

[teddy12b]

Funny you mentioned 12 ga slugs.  Last week while bear hunting another hunter who started with his bow switched to his 12ga with hornady sst slugs.  He shot one and if left a good blood trail.  He went back out for it the next morning even though they had good blood where it got hit, the trial ran out.  I wasn't with him in the stand and it's all from what he told me but still.  Bears are just tough.  In the future I plan on doing my best to make a perfect one shot kill on a bear, but I'm not going to hesitate for the follow up shots either.  Bears are such an amazing animal to hunt.  Any animal that can walk off a 12 ga slug has my respect no matter where it got hit.

[Redhawk1]

Funny you mentioned 12 ga slugs.  Last week while bear hunting another hunter who started with his bow switched to his 12ga with hornady sst slugs.  He shot one and if left a good blood trail.  He went back out for it the next morning even though they had good blood where it got hit, the trial ran out.  I wasn't with him in the stand and it's all from what he told me but still.  Bears are just tough.  In the future I plan on doing my best to make a perfect one shot kill on a bear, but I'm not going to hesitate for the follow up shots either.  Bears are such an amazing animal to hunt.  Any animal that can walk off a 12 ga slug has my respect no matter where it got hit.

Shot placement prevents those things from happening.
I was hunting black bear last week and we took 3 bear. Two handgun shooters and one bow hunter. All good shot placement and all three bear recovered under 25 Yards. The only way you loose a bear is poor shot placement, nothing more.

[teddy12b]

I know that guy who made that shot has been hunting deer in Michigan his whole life.  He was crushed when he came back and couldn't find his bear.  It's something every hunter will experience sooner or later and I can relate to his heart break.  I agree though, under 100 yards, it must have been a bad shot.

[yooper77]

teddy12b,

Did he hear the death moan?

Any bear shot like you described is a dead bear.  What color was the blood, dark or bright?

I am willing to bet the bear is dead, he just didn't find it.  Locating a dead bear is very tough at times and sometimes you can walk right by it and not ever see it.

No bear can walk off any shot hit in the vitals or punch, it just takes more time to recover.  Lots of times the fat seals off the blood trail and if the hunter doesn't widen his search and never recovers the animal.

Maybe the Hornady SST didn't make a complete pass through, which is what you want for a good blood trail and able to break down the animal faster.

yooper77

[teddy12b]

I wasn't with them when they tracked the bear.  He and his buddy did the tracking.  They said there was a lot of blood where the hit took place, but after a while the blood ran out.  He did say he heard some breathing as it ran off, but who knows what that meant.  It's a tough thing to go through and I feel sorry for the guy & bear.

[griz7674]

I just returned from a Canadian black bear hunt and own a 12 guage, .444 Marlin and 45/70.  My intent was to bring my .444 as I had 305 grains from Buffalo Bore.  However, when the time came, I brought the 12 guage.  I used Remington Buckmasters in 2 3/4.  My bear was a bit over 300 pounds and flipped upside down with my first shot.  He stood up and tried to walk off so I placed a second round right through his left hindquarter that exited through the front right leg. 

I agree that shot placement is key but I will take my 12 guage over any other rifle when hunting close up black bear.  The first shot exit hole was over 2 inches and was simply devastating.

Griz

[S.E.Ak]

Not an expert but lived with them in my yard in Alaska for six years,lived in the woods . In Alaska it ain't just the black bear you worry about takeing its what wants to eat him when you get him on the ground.My first bear was the gotta have 458 win mag second 375H&H and all the rest a Marlin 1895 in 45/70 that I also took brown bear with. In the far north the 12ga. with slugs is what the old timmers carry for protection and its great for setteling things out right quick if needed.The new 45/70 leverlution round should work very good and then theres the realy big 45/70 ammo you can buy now.Most any 30cal deer rifle is good for blacky if you are sure you are never going to Alaska for the big boys.JHMO

[efremtags]

Bear over bait are not hard to kill, but they do present a problem if hit less than perfect as they live in thick stuff (Maine and NB, CA) and clot very well and leave very poor follow up sign.

Any medium bore, modest velocity caliber works well because range is short and it will provide good penetration. All the lever guns work good from 35 - 45/70 as the factory ammo now available makes any of them suitable.

For non-lever, I would not go smaller than .30. 30-06, 308, 300WM any with 180gr or heavier ammo. Premium is not required.

If you go over 30 cal, magnum power is not required at 50 yards, so shy away from 338WM and the likes

If you plan to use your gun for more than just bear, the 30-06 is very versatile, ammo cheap, guns available in every shape and size imaginable. It is very flexible with ammo change from antelope to Moose.

I used a 300WM and a 45/70 with good results with both. The 45/70 was mroe fun.

[870wing]

My rifle choice for a baited bear hunt would go to a short barreled easy handling rifle. You'll most likely be sitting in a tree stand where a shorter barrel with be greatly appreciated. I personally like the Tikka Battue. As for calibre... I have a preference for the 30-06 and 180 grain bullets. A very close second place would go to the 308 Winchester with 165 grain bullets. The nice thing about both cartridges is that you can get reduced recoil loads for them. This allows you to practice at the bench with out getting beat up. Then you sight in with the regular hunting loads just before you head off on your hunt. Both cartridges also have a cornucopia of companies loading for them with many different bullet types and weights. It would be darned near impossible not to find a hunting load that  worked.

That's my 2 cents.

Take care and let us know what you decide.


870Wing

[Brian T]

I'm heading to Maine in 2 weeks and have gone back and forth on what gun to use.I  am going to take my ruger deerfield carbine 44 mag.Using my own hand loads 270 grain gold dot soft points over a hot load of h110.I am taking my 44 mag handi rifle as  back up with some310 gr. hard cast flat point .I think that either of these will work at the 30 to 50 yard distance from the stand over bait.My hunting partner is taking a 30-06. I think that at this yardage the 30-06 will be going to fast to expand and will just punch a 30 caliber hole.
Just my 2 cents,
Wayne

The closer you are the faster the bullet is going and the faster it will expand

[Varmint Hunter]

My buddy shot a 356 lb. black bear in Maine this fall. He used his trusty old 30-06 to take a broadside shot behind the shoulder. The no-frills 180 gr Core-lokt bullet blew right through the bear leaving a blood trail that Ray Charles could follow. Plenty of expansion and a very dead bear 50 yds away. The distance to the bear when he fired was about 60yds.

I'm heading to Maine in 2 weeks and have gone back and forth on what gun to use.I  am going to take my ruger deerfield carbine 44 mag.Using my own hand loads 270 grain gold dot soft points over a hot load of h110.I am taking my 44 mag handi rifle as  back up with some310 gr. hard cast flat point .I think that either of these will work at the 30 to 50 yard distance from the stand over bait.My hunting partner is taking a 30-06. I think that at this yardage the 30-06 will be going to fast to expand and will just punch a 30 caliber hole.
Just my 2 cents,
Wayne

The closer you are the faster the bullet is going and the faster it will expand

[BBF]

 Where did the idea that a bullet was to fast to open up ever start?? I run across that opinion ever so often.

Re: Rem CorLokts. A bullet that has been around for ages, is reasonable priced, and does a fine job.

 It also makes me wonder why WW ever stopped making their original Silvertips.
That new stuff is just a gimmick and overprized at that. IMO

[crash87]

Real life experiences with Bears and cartridges;
1992 Wis Black Bear. 375 Winchester 220gr hornady Ruger No3
2000 Wis Black bear 300 savage 180gr Speer Mag tip Savage Mod.10
2003 Alaska brown Bear 338 Win mag. 225 Barnes X-coated Ruger M77
2006 Wis. Black Bear 350 Rem mag 220 Speer F.P. Rem 673
 As far as other cartridges Include the 45/70, 358WCF, 35 Whelen and take a good hard look at any 50 cal muzzle loader. If your heart is set on a new rifle take the 444 Marlin. CRASH87

[BBF]

Real life situation
1st, a  nuisance bear on a dump, range approx 25 yard. Rifle BAR  338 Win Mag
Bullet, 225 gr Hdy. Bullet entered chest in front of leg at about a 45 deg angle and exited just in front the back leg. Bear got rolled around and took of into the thick woods. I am NOT going after anything that can bite or scratch more then I can when it gets dark.
Bear was found with the help of a dog 30 feet inside the woods under a fallen tree next morning. 

2n Bear.  semi open land, walking on an old skidder trail on a stalk for moose. Bear was feeding on some tubers 60 yards estimated. Rifle 444 Marlin, handloaded with 265 gr Hdy FN.
Shot hit lungs broadside.  Bear got knocked off his feet and died on that spot.

With the Hornady Ammo, either FN or gummy bear tip you will be happy with the 444.  You can also reload a lever banger faster then a bolt action just in case you need a second shot which is unlikely if you get the first one even close to the right place.

I have never seen a 220 gr. Remington 30 cal bullet so I can't make a comment on the suitability from a 30-06 at close range bear hunting.
I would think their 180 gr SP would be a good choice.

[mannyrock]

   Well Geez, . . .back to the original question.

    You are hunting black bear.  Not Kodiak bear.

    The .338 magnum is a ridiculous choice for a black bear gun.  It is 3 times more powerful than necessary.

     Of those that you listed, assuming thats you are a woods hunter, or otherwise keeping shots under 200 yards, the .444 Marlin is a great choice. The factory loaded Hornadays are more than adequate on both black bear and elk. 

    The .35 Whelen is also a good choice.  It has a little more range for large game than the .444. Problem is, the choice of factory loads is somewhat limited.

     And, as almost everyone has told you, the .30-06 with a quality 180 grain factory load is really all that you need for ANY black bear, and I don't care if it weighs 500 pounds or not. Just make sure that the rifle you choose gives you a quick second shot (Browning lever action, Remington 7600 pump, etc.)

    As Teddy Roosevelt wrote, the American black bear is not much more dangerous than a large dog.

   Why does everyone start out by talking about hand-loading cartridges for a black bear!  Totally unnecessary.


Mannyrock





     

[870wing]

Well if we are talking real life experience... here goes;
Browning pistol in 22 long rifle.
Savage rifle in 22 Hornet.
Savage rifle in 303 Savage.
Wingmaster 20 gauge with Remington slug.
American Eagle bow with Thunderhead broadhead.
Winchester model 70 in 257 Roberts with Winchester 100 grain Silver Tip bullet.
None of the bears killed weighted more than 250 lbs.
All the bears died with one shot with the exception of the 22 pistol, which took 4 shots to do the job.
As you can see none of the guns used were cannons (especially the bow  .)
I think to many people read to many stories about the dangers of black bear hunting and how hard black bears are to kill.
Any round capable of downing a deer will work perfectly well for bear.
Our original poster could use a rifled slug barell for his preferred shotgun and some quality slugs and still be well suited for the type of bear hunting he is planning.

Take care

870Wing