Author Topic: Decision on a Black bear rifle (Read 22799 times)

Lazermule · « **Reply #60 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:42:38 PM »

Wow! a 22lr for bear? How'd that come about? Got a story?

LM

45-70.gov · « **Reply #61 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:51:05 PM »

bears and pigs both
must be shot with guns much larger than what is needed for deer
same as varmints can't be shot with your deer rifle

if a 30-06,308, 270 could do it all
we wouldn't have an excuse to bye more guns

don't you people know anything

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #62 on:** January 13, 2009, 02:51:36 AM »

Quote from: 870wing on January 12, 2009, 04:00:03 PM

Well if we are talking real life experience... here goes;
Browning pistol in 22 long rifle.
Savage rifle in 22 Hornet.
Savage rifle in 303 Savage.
Wingmaster 20 gauge with Remington slug.
American Eagle bow with Thunderhead broadhead.
Winchester model 70 in 257 Roberts with Winchester 100 grain Silver Tip bullet.
None of the bears killed weighted more than 250 lbs.
All the bears died with one shot with the exception of the 22 pistol, which took 4 shots to do the job.
As you can see none of the guns used were cannons (especially the bow .)
I think to many people read to many stories about the dangers of black bear hunting and how hard black bears are to kill.
Any round capable of downing a deer will work perfectly well for bear.
Our original poster could use a rifled slug barell for his preferred shotgun and some quality slugs and still be well suited for the type of bear hunting he is planning.

Take care

870Wing

I think you are painting a false picture here. Using a 22 L/R for bear hunting is a total farce and unethical. Sure most animals can be killed with a 22 L/R with the proper bullet placement. But that does not guarantee a quick kill.

Most hunters of black bear hunt in very thick brush and tracking a bear shot with a 22 L/R can and most likely would be imposable.

I hate to see people come one here and minimise the danger of the black bear. Yes almost 98 % of the black bear are more afraid of us then we are of them. But there is that 2% that will kill you. And too come here and paint the picture that they are anything less is plain BS.

Quote

Posted by: mannyrock
As Teddy Roosevelt wrote, the American black bear is not much more dangerous than a large dog.

Why does everyone start out by talking about hand-loading cartridges for a black bear! Totally unnecessary.

Show me a large dog with claws and wild? Go and take a black bear cub from it's mother, bet you don't make it out alive to tell your story.
Once again someone down playing a wild animal. In my opinion, it is plan ignorance to do so.

As far as reloading ammo, I reload for all my guns. A hell of a lot cheaper than factory rounds and a lot more accurate in my guns.

We as hunter owe it to the animals we hunt, to make quick clean kills. Also have a good enough blood trail so the animal can be blood trailed. Anything less is not acceptable.

870wing · « **Reply #63 on:** January 13, 2009, 05:55:35 AM »

Hi Redhawk1,

If you read my first post I mentioned that I preferred a 30-06 closely followed by a 308 for black bear hunting.

The second post is about what I've used in the past to harvest bears. Would I recommend a 22 LR for bear hunting ...No! I just don't believe that a 338 Winchester Magnum is needed to bag a bear from a tree stand in Maine, especially where the shots will be under 75 yards and usually closer to 30 or 40 yards. With the bigger is better theory I guess we should all hang up our bows and black powder guns too. I would prefer that a hunter use a smaller caliber gun and know how to place the shot, than a cannon that makes them flinch and wound an animal. I've had to track to many wounded animals by people who put to much faith in big magnuns that they can't shoot properly.

I have enough brains to know that you don't get in between a mother and her little one and that's not just with bears.

Take care

870Wing

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #64 on:** January 13, 2009, 08:17:13 AM »

870wing, in the same token don't under estimate people that shoot big bore guns. I would rate my big bore handgun shooting to better than most guys I see using smaller handgun. 26 years of handgun hunting with guns 44 Mag and larger, I think I don't have to worry about flinching or a bad shot.

And lets not turn this into a anti- bow or muzzleloader thread. People have been using bows and black powder guns for many years. No one said one thing about them, except you!

But if someone wants to use a 338 Win Mag, so what! Will it kill a bear, is it a little much for black bear, sure it is, but DEAD IS DEAD.

As for the bigger is better theory, in my opinion it is. Bigger holes allow the animal to bleed out faster and make for easy tracking, if you even need to do any tracking. I much prefer a big hole over a small hole. That is also why a bow is a good killer, it causes massive hemraging and allows the animal to bleed out quickly.

Bad marksmanship is not just for big bore gun hunters, I have seen my share of poor marksman with small bore handguns and rifles.

Lazermule · « **Reply #65 on:** January 13, 2009, 09:22:21 AM »

I still want to know the story on the 22LR killing the bear.... Defensive move? Offensive??? How'd it go down??

LM

870wing · « **Reply #66 on:** January 13, 2009, 10:27:57 AM »

Redhawk1,

I'm not into being beaten up with unneeded recoil if I don't have to (that's my choice.) I'm glad you can shoot a 338 Winchester mag with accuracy, but I consider you the exception to the rule. If you feel you need a 338 mag to down a 200 or 250lb bear, well go for it, it will get the job done if the bullet goes where it's suppose to. If we ever happen to meet I'll buy you a shot of Jack Daniels with a Tylenol chaser.

Every year I watch guys sighting in their high powered rifles at the range and I'm amazed at the number of guys I see turning their heads away when they pull the trigger. A large number of them have a hard time hitting a pie plate at 100 yards. I feel these guys would probably be better off with some thing more shootable that still gets the job done.

Lazermule,

The bear with the 22 is not all that exciting. I was checking out my grandfather's trapline and saw what I thought was a black bear in one of his traps. The bear was facing away from me, so I moved up slowly and leaned against a tree to take careful aim behind the bear's ear. I shot the bear and proceded to pump in 3 more shots for good measure. It turned out the bear was eating a raccoon that had gotten trapped instead.

Take care 870Wing

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #67 on:** January 13, 2009, 01:54:58 PM »

870wing, myself, I would not use a 338 win Mag, I much prefer a 45-70 with a good hard cast bullet. But I mostly use handguns for my black bear hunting. 500 Mag or my 510 GNR. This year I will use my 475 Linebaugh. I like big holes.

The 338 Win Mag is by no means a heavy recoiling gun in my opinion. My light weight Sako 375 H&H is a different story, as was my 416 Rigby. But they also were not my black bear guns.

But I will say this again, I see just as many poor shots with mild recoiling guns, as I do with magnum guns. It is that shooters and hunters these days don't put the time in to become proficient with there chosen gun.

ratherbefishin · « **Reply #68 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:31:17 AM »

Bella Twin ,a native girl ,killed the largest grizzly to date in 1953 with a single shot .22 in northern Alberta.The record stood for several years.I believe she shot it in the eye when she came across it while berry picking .You can google the story which was on www.angelfire -Grizzly guns by H V Stent[obviously he is NOT recommending using a single shot 22 as the weapon of choice for hunting record book grizzlies]

mannyrock · « **Reply #69 on:** January 15, 2009, 01:31:53 PM »

Regarding 12 gauge slugs on black bear.

I read an article about 15 years ago, where they tested lots of 12 gauge slugs in killing big bear in New Foundland. Conclusion was: the problem is not that slugs don't have enough power, but that they don't necessarily have enough penetration.

The cheap foster type slugs and the Brenneke slugs (which are mostly lead) were the worse. They flattened out in the bear way too soon, especially if they hit shoulder bone. They rolled the bear, but often the bear got up and ran away.

The more expensive modern slugs, made of denser metal, and designed for penetration (I think they tested the Remington solid copper?) were much better, and gave good penetration and good kills. The bear still ran 40 yards or so, but then fell dead.

These shots were not from a tree stand over bait. They were on the ground, in logging cut-overs, shooting at distances of 50 to 80 yards.

Just some info.

Mannyrock

870wing · « **Reply #70 on:** January 15, 2009, 03:41:35 PM »

Redhawk1,
You are a fortunate man to still be able to use a handgun for hunting. I am green with envy.
I grew up in an era where my grandfather could go to the local hardware store and buy a case of ditching dynamite and caps.
An era where no one would raise an eye brow at a teen age boy leaving the house with a shotgun and crossing the road to head off into the woods.
Sadly that is not the case today, especially in my neck of the woods (Canada.)
Hand gun hunting has gone the way of the Dodo bird. You have to have a special permit to purchase a handgun (with a 2 day course.) Another permit to transport the handgun from the store to your house and another permit from your your house to the shooting range. So all I can say to you and the other members is protect your right to use handguns for all you are worth, because once it is gone, it is to late.

Take care

870Wing

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #71 on:** January 15, 2009, 05:21:05 PM »

Yes I am glad also, but with the new administration coming in, I don't know what the future of gun ownership in America holds for us.

We have a lot of dumb people in America that voted for some of the most anti-gun Liberal dummies.

BBF · « **Reply #72 on:** January 16, 2009, 04:03:40 AM »

When I lived in B.C. my all game ( deer, bear,moose) was a 200gr Speer Spitzer in the 30-06. Nothing survived that bullet!

NYHunter · « **Reply #73 on:** February 19, 2009, 06:49:14 AM »

My preference would be the Rem. 180 grn. SP Core-Lokt bullet from a .30-06 or .308 ... thats' all you really need.

Lazermule · « **Reply #74 on:** February 22, 2009, 02:16:18 AM »

I was just notified that I got my Wisconsin bear permit this year. The bear ready calibers that I have to choose from are 7mm-08, 7mm Rem Mag, 45-70 (handi), 45LC (contender), 454 Casull (Raging Bull). My wife used the 7mm-08 on her last bear and one shot to the neck produced a bang flop scenario. Before I had the 45-70, my plan was to use the 7mm Mag, but now I am rethinking things a bit. I may go for the 45-70 loaded hot with a Barnes X and the Raging Bull on the side.

It took me 7 years to get this permit and I really want to fill it with a decent bear. The permit is $210 because I am a non-resident (but I own hundreds of acres there) and the cost to apply per year is $3 so I will have $231 into this bear before I even start.

Looking forward to this fall....

LAZER

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #75 on:** February 22, 2009, 02:32:12 AM »

Lazermule, congratulation and good luck. The 45-70 is a great choice.

jlchucker · « **Reply #76 on:** February 22, 2009, 04:32:12 AM »

Did I miss a posting, or has everybody forgotten about the plain ole 35 Remington with the plain ole 200 Gr Remington Coreloct bullet? I don't think these would exactly fail to penetrate or expand.

BBF · « **Reply #77 on:** February 22, 2009, 09:25:44 AM »

Lazermule:
There is no need to use a hot 45-70 load for bear and you don't need a Barnes bullet either.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #78 on:** February 23, 2009, 01:10:39 AM »

Quote from: BBF on February 22, 2009, 09:25:44 AM

Lazermule:
There is no need to use a hot 45-70 load for bear and you don't need a Barnes bullet either.

It is not a matter of need, but it may be what he want's to use. But I am more than sure it will work.

Myself, I like a nice 405 gr. hard cast bullet in my 45-70.

BBF · « **Reply #79 on:** February 23, 2009, 03:49:57 AM »

That will work, or a Speer Hot Cor if you want to go jacketed.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #80 on:** February 23, 2009, 05:26:43 AM »

My buddy had me load up some bulk Remington 405 gr. bullets for him. So I loaded up 36 gr. of IMR4198, actually a light Marlin load or heavy trp door load. He kill a nice black bear with it with one shot. Bullet was not found....

Blue Duck · « **Reply #81 on:** February 27, 2009, 12:56:49 PM »

I have taken several bears with a 7mm Rem Mag. Works for me.

SHOOTIST TOO · « **Reply #82 on:** February 27, 2009, 02:04:11 PM »

Ehumes83 and Mad Dog what part of Indiana do you live in ? I live in Northwest Indiana. For bear I would use a pistol but if I went with a rifle it would be a 45-70 guide gun.I Ehmemes83 hunts deer in Indiana so I like Mad Dogs idea of a large pistol Marlin levergun.

teddy12b · « **Reply #83 on:** February 27, 2009, 05:57:34 PM »

I'm a hoosier too and recently bought a lever 44mag. You can get some hot & heavy cast loads for the rifle that will really be devastating.

pennhunter08 · « **Reply #84 on:** March 14, 2009, 05:32:35 PM »

I'd seriously consider a 30-06. It's easy to shoot, and there are many factory loads that will easily drop a black bear. As you choose your rifle, be sure to get one with a QUIET safety. Bear will pick up on a small "click" and will not stick around to find out what it was. Then practice, shot placement of course trumps any debate over caliber.

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #85 on:** March 15, 2009, 06:25:54 AM »

I've shot a few bears over the years, including the bow kills. The only bear that ever died within view of the stand was hit with a Hornady 350gr FP bullet shot from my 20" 45-70 ProHunter. I think I'll use it again on the next hunt.

If I remember correctly, MV was about 1,900 ft/sec and recoil was no big deal.

maglvr44 · « **Reply #86 on:** March 18, 2009, 09:50:00 PM »

I always get a kick out of the huge cartridges and ft lbs. of energy most people think it takes to drop a black bear or a moose, the 357 mag, 44 mag,(handgun or rifle) and good old 30-30 are PLENTY for ANY blackie or swamp donkey that ever walked the earth! Whatever you choose, leave the worthless hollow points at home for shooting garden pests.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #87 on:** March 19, 2009, 02:29:32 AM »

Quote from: maglvr44 on March 18, 2009, 09:50:00 PM

I always get a kick out of the huge cartridges and ft lbs. of energy most people think it takes to drop a black bear or a moose, the 357 mag, 44 mag,(handgun or rifle) and good old 30-30 are PLENTY for ANY blackie or swamp donkey that ever walked the earth! Whatever you choose, leave the worthless hollow points at home for shooting garden pests.

Forget that 357 Mag, it is not a hunting round for anything bigger than a deer, and within it's limitations 35 or 40 yards.
The reason I choose bigger rounds is not for the energy, but for the BIG HOLES it leaves.

maglvr44 · « **Reply #88 on:** March 19, 2009, 06:52:12 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on March 19, 2009, 02:29:32 AM

Quote from: maglvr44 on March 18, 2009, 09:50:00 PM
I always get a kick out of the huge cartridges and ft lbs. of energy most people think it takes to drop a black bear or a moose, the 357 mag, 44 mag,(handgun or rifle) and good old 30-30 are PLENTY for ANY blackie or swamp donkey that ever walked the earth! Whatever you choose, leave the worthless hollow points at home for shooting garden pests.

Forget that 357 Mag, it is not a hunting round for anything bigger than a deer, and within it's limitations 35 or 40 yards.
The reason I choose bigger rounds is not for the energy, but for the BIG HOLES it leaves.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

357 Magnum Testimonials from earlier days
1935
Major Douglas Wesson

Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)

Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)

Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)

Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

The Antelope was hit the first time at 125 yards. It ran, stopped and was shot the second time at 200 yards. The second shot killed it.

The Bull Elk was killed with one shot through the lungs.

The Moose was shot in the chest near the base of the neck. It cut the 2nd rib, passed through both lungs, sheared the 8th rib on the off side and stopped just under the hide. No follow-up shot was required.

These animals were taken on a Fall hunt in Wyoming, near the West entrance of Yellowstone Park. The Grizzly was taken later in Canada.

The above game was taken using factory loads which were a 158 gr. bullet at 1515 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. (S&W later shortened the barrels to 8 3/8" as we have today)

maglvr44 · « **Reply #89 on:** March 19, 2009, 07:27:01 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on August 11, 2008, 08:38:11 AM

Quote from: blackbear on August 11, 2008, 03:03:17 AM
Quote from: Mad Dog on August 11, 2008, 01:41:50 AM
Would tend to agree that premium bullets aren't needed on an average black bear, but he could run into a bigger one, and if he is using the lowere end of the cartridges I mentioned[ie: 44 mag, 45 LC], the premium bullet could give him an edge. Not needed on deer, but won't hurt on bear.

I too have a .45-70, its a marlin GG. I've taken bear and hogs with it, and just returned from south africa, about 3 wks. ago, where I used it on plains game. The bullet? 300 gr. nosler partition.

Mad Dog
That says it all. An average caliber for an average Black Bear. A record book Black Bear can take a solid hit from an "average" caliber and die far away from the bait site in the thickest stuff he can find, with little or no blood trail.

When I go black bear hunting, I load up for "big" black bear. Personally I use a S&W 460 Mag, 454 Casull, 480 Ruger, 475 Linebaugh 510 GNR or 500 Mag, if I use a handgun and bullets in the 370 to 440 gr. range.

Great loads for elephants maybe, but hardly needed for blackies! unless you're askeert they gonna getcha