Decision on a Black bear rifle

[pahardwoods]

deader the better. but if your broke and gots no money why buy a new gun? ur grandpas deer rifle will do the job better than anything else. but see i like a little challenge and i'd take the bow only cuz uh i like girls and i personally dont need a big fat bullet to get the job done 

[teddy12b]

Using a bow because you like girls?  I hate to break it to you but more animals are wounded every year by bow hunters than any other weapon.  Hunt with whatever you want to, but don't start that archery vs gun debate crap.  Every year bow hunters get prime time to hunt anything they want so they can go out there with 70# compound bows with fiber optic sights and more likely than not wound whatever they shoot at.  I've shot a bear with a 30-30 and he walked it off.  We tracked for several hours at a distance the guides estimated was about a mile and the blood ran out.  I regret not making a better shot, but next time I'll be making sure a bigger hole is in the plan.  I wasn't a believer in the wider holes until a saw a bear skinned that had an inch of fat on it.  If you want to hunt one with a bow, it can be done, but it's much less likely.

[dukkillr]

I hate to break it to you but more animals are wounded every year by bow hunters than any other weapon. 

Care to cite that statistic?  Not only do I suspect that it's wrong, I suspect it's wildly wrong.

[Redhawk1]

teddy12b, a arrow is every bit as effective on game as bullets.  I don't think it is a fair statement to say "more animals are wounded every year by bow hunters than any other weapon."

I have seen just as many gun hunters make bad shots as bow hunters. It happens in both bow and gun hunting.  Many bears have fallen to bow & arrow. Shot placement is key no matter what you use.

[billy_56081]

Using a bow because you like girls?  I hate to break it to you but more animals are wounded every year by bow hunters than any other weapon.  Hunt with whatever you want to, but don't start that archery vs gun debate crap.  Every year bow hunters get prime time to hunt anything they want so they can go out there with 70# compound bows with fiber optic sights and more likely than not wound whatever they shoot at.  I've shot a bear with a 30-30 and he walked it off.  We tracked for several hours at a distance the guides estimated was about a mile and the blood ran out.  I regret not making a better shot, but next time I'll be making sure a bigger hole is in the plan.  I wasn't a believer in the wider holes until a saw a bear skinned that had an inch of fat on it.  If you want to hunt one with a bow, it can be done, but it's much less likely.

HMMMM, I must have a bow that is more powerful than your 30-30, one arrow and bear fell dead within sight. Or maybe it is an unskilled marksman that caused your bear to rot in the woods. My 85lb 14 year old petite little daughter had no problem killing a bear with her 30-30. But then again, she is a very skilled shooter and practiced all summer for the hunt.

I would advise for a person to use a gun that they feel comfortable with. Black bears are not all that tough. We have had many clean kills with calibers from 243 Win up to 12 guage slugs. The most effective people were the ones that were skilled shooters and felt confident with their weapon of choice.

[pahardwoods]

to bow hunt the hunter needs to have a stronger mentality than one with a gun. an arrow is usually a one shot chance and placement is more key than a bullet because of the particular fault of the arrow not being able to brake and penetrate the the shoulder of game. a bullet and obliterate the shoulder and clip vitals. an arrow does not usually do that. i make a bigger hole with rage broadheads than any bullet with ever be able to do. that is if the shot placement is in the rib cage. persay ur hunting with a 30-30 xlr marlin you just keep cocking your gun taking more shots! a remington 7600 just keep pumpin' an shootin' till your prey falls. unless ur animal is stupid you have one chance with the "more wounding arrow"....challenge yourself a little and instead of saying grr bowhunters get prime time roar roar roar  why dont you try it. its how the natives of country did it. it is the founded way to hunt north american game

[Redhawk1]

pahardwoods, get off your bow hunting agenda, because that is exactly what you are pushing here.
I wounded just how many bear hunts you have been on, because you usually only get ONE SHOT not matter the weapon you use.

Your second attempt at making it seem that everyone that chooses a firearm over a bow makes it less of a hunt, is just plain ignorant.

I am a bow hunter, muzzleloader hunter, rifle hunter and handgun hunter, I do it all, and I don't take anything away for anyone which one they choose to use.

Also stick to the topic, which was "Decision on a Black bear rifle" Not should I use a bow for my bear hunt.

[pahardwoods]

wondered not **wounded.and sorry i`m to young to go away for bear hunts... although i hunt them here and PA and i was able to be present for when the record PA bear was taken(i wasn't old enough to hunt) ): in tionesta a couple years ago and it had many holes by multiple people along with the other three taken in the area

i'm not saying its less of a hunt. im saying it is more challenging becuase the small range needed. and many people disagree with it simply because they are to lazy to atleast try it.i'm not syaing its less of a hunt just that is more challenging.

I hunt with all and love them all too. if someone is capable of bowhunting though, than they should challenge themselves to do it. some people dont want to be challenged and then complain about the bow hunters. i respect you and everyone else out there that hunts with as big a selection as they can.

my decision for a black bear rifle would be what i already have and i would like to know wat this hunter has a deer rifle in indiana. i could use my .243 for bears but i used my .270 - this past season in w. pa- simply becuase i felt more comfortable with shot placement with it. i just wouldnt buy a new rifle for it when deer guns are just as good as anything else

[teddy12b]

I hate to break it to you but more animals are wounded every year by bow hunters than any other weapon. 

Care to cite that statistic?  Not only do I suspect that it's wrong, I suspect it's wildly wrong.

I'll try to look up where I read that.  The article had to do with bad shots, but focused on guys that don't practice enough with their bows.  I have nothing against hunting with a bow, I just don't think it's as good of a weapon as a rifle.  I know guys out there love to hunt with a bow as much as I love to hunt with my rifle and I'm happy for them.  I've thought about getting into bow hunting myself just to add a few weeks to the season.  Whatever makes you happy. 

Here are a couple I found, though not the original one I was looking for.  I use the google scholarly search when I try to research reliable information.  I'd be interested in reading any articles to the contrary. 

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3781397

https://fp.auburn.edu/sfws/ditchkoff/PDF%20publications/1998%20-%20SEAFWA.pdf

I know the 30-30 is more powerful than a bow and plenty capable of taking bear.  In the case I was talking about with the bear walking off a 30-30 round I was referring to a hunt I went on a couple years ago where I aimed to low in the bears chest but several inches inside of the hair and the first shot went through hair.  The bear went down like it got hit hard (i must have scared the heck out of him) and then as he go up and went around a tree I shot again just trying to anchor him so he didn't go far.  I was using 170gr federal soft points.  The second shot was too high on the shoulder but we followed the blood trail for a long ways and it was a gut wrenching feeling to track an animal that I wounded.  I don't ever want to wound another animal like that again and that's why I bought the 45/70.  It's more than enough no matter how you look at it and there just no excuses with one.

[billy_56081]

So if you shoot the bear low with your 45-70 will it die? My 14 year old 85 lb daughter even knew to not place the bullet low like you do a deer as she studied and prepared for her hunt.

[teddy12b]

I guess your little girl is twice the man I’ll ever be.  Congratulations on introducing young people to hunting I genuinely respect that, but obviously a bad shot with any gun or arrow won’t do the job.  Anyone reading here would know that .

When I looked at all the pictures of the bone structure of a bear and how their organs are setup in their chest it showed me that the bears heart & lungs were lower in the chest than on a deer.  A deer being almost exactly in the middle of the chest when standing and a bear being in the lower third region of the chest when standing.  At the time, people had told to aim a little lower in the chest than I would a deer and I had no reason not to believe them.

I have other pictures and diagrams that I looked at but this is the one I spent the most time looking at.

http://www.dundeesportsmansclub.com/dundee%20pic/bearshotplacement.pdf

When I took the shot the bear was sitting on its rear with it’s closer arm reaching out to grasp the bucket.  It was the absolute perfect shot setup and I couldn’t have asked for better.  The stand I was in had a safety bar that came around that was perfect to rest my rifle on and I had the best shooting setup I could have ever hoped for.  I waited for the right time and while the bear wasn’t looking I aimed just under the arm and about 3 to 4 inched inside the chest and pulled the trigger.  I would bet my life that I know within a ¼” of where that bullet went right where I aimed it.  I had no idea how long the hair was on a bear and I must have just given him a breeze.   I have no doubt that had I aimed another couple inches to the right I would have had the bear of a lifetime.  The full story is here: 

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,125131.0.html

I’m sure you’ll enjoy picking it apart and telling me all the things someone else would have done right, but I’ll already admit it.  I had the chance of a lifetime at an incredible bear and I blew the shot. 

[1sourdough]

 Thanks for sharing Teddy, many hunters don't seem to mention the one that got away. Years ago I got mixed up in a situation & it ended up costing me a DNR ticket. I admitted the mixup & volunteered for the ticket. Not that my volunteering would of changed much. I took my punishment the best I could. I didn't start that day intending to run afoul of the law. The point is stuff happens & we all should learn from it. Somewhat unrelated I know.

[pahardwoods]

teddy i would hunt with any and every weapon possible. the only thing to remember is that practice makes perfect regardless the weapon, gernade launcher or long bow and everything in between

[teddy12b]

teddy i would hunt with any and every weapon possible. the only thing to remember is that practice makes perfect regardless the weapon, gernade launcher or long bow and everything in between

The most frustrating part of the bear that got away was that I had practiced so much with that 30-30.  I had done a little bit of ammo testing and selected what shot the most accurately out of my rifle and could still punch through a 4x4.  I wish I knew how many rounds I've put through that 30-30 especially just for that hunt.  Even knowing that I basically had a rifle rest and wasn't rushed just makes it tougher to deal with the mistake.  I don't mind not getting a stuffed bear or rug, or some tasty meat.  I do hate that I hurt an animal and it wasn't a clean kill.  As much practice and time as I put in beforehand and at the moment it mattered I failed.  It's a lesson learned. 

[pahardwoods]

right on. the more hunts you go on the more real experience you`ll get making you and even better hunter. best luck to you and your upcoming hunts

[Spanky]

I just don't get it...
When did black bears become so hard to kill??

A 30-30 is no good after 100 yds.??
Stand out there 150 yds. and see if you can "walk off" a shot in the boiler room from a 170 gr. Core Lokt.
That might change some people's perspective on what it takes to kill an animal.


30-30 with 170 gr. Core Lokt equals a dead bear.



Spanky

[1sourdough]

 A factor with most black bear hunting is your shot could come right next to dark. You are usually hunting very thick cover with no snow, yes I know tracking is possible without snow. If the bear gets 200 yrds in a thick, wet tag alder swamp with a scant blood trail you could have problems. Now it's dark & it may be raining, bears like it wet. Time to look for a dog.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Reading these comments it is easy to see who has been there hunting bears and who has been the armchair hunters. You just mentioned one of the big troubles with bear hunting Sourdough. Plus the fat in a fall bear and the heavy spring hair can absorb a lot of blood. One other factor is even though an animal is well hit, it can run a long ways before dropping, and ther can be very little blood to follow the first 25 yards or so. I remember an antelope doe I shot at about 75 yards, she was drinking at a pond. Not scared, and I put a 100 Rem. from a 6mm right though both lungs, she ran 200 yards before falling. I would say the first 25 or so yards there was little if any blood. Now if she had been in heavy timber, late in the evening, with poor tracking, and poor light, the chances of recovery would have been greatly diminished. As it was we just followed a jeep trail over to her. Well hit animals can travel a long way. It is just like humans, some humans will fight on after being badly wounded any number of times while others fold with a poor hit. While I like the .30-30 for lots of game there are bear and there are bear. In Pennsylvania, they have taken black bear over 800 pounds. For shooting a moving animal under low light I would want the heaviest gun I can accurately shoot. As Tebby said when we screw up the shot, it is the animal that suffers.

[Redhawk1]

Wyo. Coyote Hunter, that is why I like big holes, they let out a lot of blood. And you are correct, you can tell the arm chair hunters. 

[BBF]

1sourdough has got it right.
            GET A DOG !!
 Even a minitature poodle can sniff out a bear.

[Redhawk1]

1sourdough has got it right.
            GET A DOG !!
 Even a minitature poodle can sniff out a bear.

If you make a good shot a dog is not needed, but if you make a bad shot, by al means get a dog in the woods.

[Doug B.]

If shooting only short distances or at a treed bear, it's hard to beat a full ounce of lead out of a gun that you already own......a shotgun. I've seen more than one take it's final and quick breath from this round .

But who says it's not fun getting a new rifle!

[teddy12b]

On my last bear hunting trip another hunter put away his bow after the first two nights and brought out his shotgun.  He's a michigan deer hunter and has taken plenty of deer with that shotgun.  He shot a bear just before total darkness and swore up & down he had a good hit.  That night around the campfire he was as happy as a little kid who couldn't wait to wake up and go look under the Christmas tree except in this case he wanted to go look for his bear.  He and his buddy tracked for hours the next day and the blood trail ran out.  That night around the campfire he was just sick to his stomach with disapointment and I shared with him my story about the one I had but got away.  Shotguns are great guns too, but they're not a guarentee.  I wouldn't be afraid of using a shotgun by any means, just thought I'd share another hunters story.

[Doug B.]

  Shotguns are great guns too, but they're not a guarantee. 

When it comes to putting down any type of game, it's not guaranteed no matter what gun you use. With proper shot placement, there are definitely firearms that have a better chance of doing so than others.

[BBF]

I've taken two black bears and won't hunt them anymore
( personal reason).

 The first one was at close range with a 338 Win Mag 225 gr Hdy. The bullet went diagonal thru the bear and still that animal managed to run into the woods. Not being Moma's dumb son, I decided NOT to go after the bear because of low light until the next day with a friends Doberman along . That dog found the dead bear within seconds  not far from the place I shot under a fallen tree. Short of tripping over that bear I would not have found it the evening before.

The second bear was shot out in the open with a 444 Marlin
(265gr Hdy FN) and he dropped where he stood.

[wild country]

I'm sure there are poeple who will understand that if you hunt long enough you will wound and animal.  I have, and yes it was with a bow, it was a book bear and it did live to be killed the next year.  How do I know? because my broad head was still in it.  We look at big game as something more then it is.  How many other game animals have you wounded in your life time.  I think all the game we hunt counts.
 
I have never killed a bear with a cast bullet, but can tell you that with the right person shooting, a cast bullet does make a great hole, a big hole, and one that lets the blood flow.  I can also tell you that a 100gr muzzy will do the same as will a 1 oz 12ga slug.  I've killed them with a 60gr partition bullet from my .223 all 600lbs worth.  I have used most of the .30 cal weapons. Yes I used .338 as well as pure lead from my great plains .50 cal all 385gr at 20 yards which didn't exit.  I can also tell you that at 12 ft a 3006 180 partiton bullet didn't exit the 268lb bear my daughter shot.  I have seen bear hit and not bleed a drop due to the 4-6" of fat on the animal. 

Bottom line is, this person the one who asked if the 338 35 444 would be good for bear and which one works best, is doing his homework, which we all do and this web page is a great place to get info from people who are hunters.  I mean guys who live, eat and breath the sport.  I agree with some of the info that people have posted, I also know that not everyone will see "eye to eye" with what I have to say, so I choose to be selective in what I say.   

I say "check the fruit on the tree"  ask people on this site to back up what they have to say, then and only then can you make a choice as to what you think will work best for you. If you have the money to buy a new gun, then do so.  If not your deer rifle will do a great job. 

Most of what we have today came from someones failure, where would we be if people didn't take a chance?  Dare to step out take a chance and if you fail....................learn from it, pass it on and move forward............

[BBF]

adding to "use your Deer Rifle" I would suggest a heavy for caliber bullet or if you handload and use a lighter bullet slow it down if anticipating a close shot.

[Two Bears]

teddy12b, a arrow is every bit as effective on game as bullets.  I don't think it is a fair statement to say "more animals are wounded every year by bow hunters than any other weapon."

I have seen just as many gun hunters make bad shots as bow hunters. It happens in both bow and gun hunting.  Many bears have fallen to bow & arrow. Shot placement is key no matter what you use.

Right on, here is my first archery bear harvest, P&Y 300 pound that squared 6' 4" taken at 20 yards and bear went about 70 yards and piled up dead.
They say that archery killed bears on average go less distance after the shot than bears shot with firearms.

[teddy12b]

teddy12b, a arrow is every bit as effective on game as bullets.  I don't think it is a fair statement to say "more animals are wounded every year by bow hunters than any other weapon."

I have seen just as many gun hunters make bad shots as bow hunters. It happens in both bow and gun hunting.  Many bears have fallen to bow & arrow. Shot placement is key no matter what you use.

They say that archery killed bears on average go less distance after the shot than bears shot with firearms.

I'd be curious about who "they" are that say a bow shot bear goes less distance than a gun shot bear.  Not trying to argue, just curious where you got that from. 

Very nice bear by the way!  How many pounds of pull does your bow have?  How did you cook it?

[Antietamgw]

I'm real happy with with my BLR 81 in .358 Win.  Now that they are available again it should be easy to find one. It's accurate, quick handling and fast to load/unload without any fumbling.  Depending on how and where you hunt and how you travel, you may have to load and unload numerous times a day in daylight or dark. Being able to insert or drop a magazine comes in handy. For optics I picked the Leupold 1X-4X with heavy duplex reticle - it's stands out very well in low light and is pretty reasonable priced. I've not had to make a sight setting change after a number of years of bouncing around on an ATV in a Kolpin scabbord. If I had it to do again I might go with the 2X-7X heavy duplex just for the larger objective bell. So far, I have no problem with the 1X-4X up 'till dark-thirty. I used Speer 220 FP's and IMR 4064 and found performance was very good at close range with all the expansion and penetration you could want. I now use 180 and 220 gr cast bullets almost exclusively.  I used a .30-06 bolt gun prior to that, it does fine too and both are great plinking/small game  rounds with mild cast loads for use the other 9 or 10 months out of the year.