Rem Roller I.D. help

[Saloon slug]

Hey all I usually don't hang out much on this side of GBO but I got a question for you all. I just got a Remington Mil Rolling Block from my dad it is 45-70 the metal is all in the white and doesn't look like it ever was blued or Case Colored. A gentleman on another site said it might be Remington New York State Improved Model. Any help in I.Ding this would be great.

Here is a full length pic.


Here is a pick of the tang. It didn't show up to well but the last date is November 7th 1874.

[filmokentucky]

If possible, more photos would be helpful. These rifles were made in a variety of types and often small details mean a lot.

[Saloon slug]

I will try to take some more tonight and post them up.

Ok took some more pics. I looked all over the gun and the only mark I can find is a capital B on the left side of the barrel just ahead of the receiver.

Rear sight in the up position it is marked to 1000 yards.


Rear sight in the down position. In this position it is marked to 400 yards.



Muzzle and fore end cap.


Right side of the receiver.


Left side of the receiver.


And a couple of the barrel with the fore end removed. As you can see the metal under the wood is shiny bright.


As you can see it has 3 bbl bands.

If there is something else you would like to see a pic of I will snap it and post it up

Thanks for the help

After having my wife look at it we think the last year on the tang might be 1871 instead of 1874 it is worn and hard to read. Also fond the number 61 stamped in the bbl channel of the fore end.

[Ray Newman]

RE: the NYS Rolling Block:

-- Were chambered in .50-70 Gov't.

--Had a feature that upon closing the block, the hammer automatically returned to the half cock notch from full cock. (IIRC, some rifles for USA/USN also had this feature.)

As for the rifle in question, the high arch hammer & the side swept block ear resemble those on a NYS militia rifle, but the calibre is wrong.

Then again, maybe it was re-barreled @ a later date by a previous owner.

Under license, the Springfield Armory made early USN & USA rolling block rifles (.50-70 & .45-70). The right side of the lock was stamped w/ the eagle, US Springfield, & date on 3 lines.

Remington made thousands of these rifles & some were often utilized by military schools, various state militias, foreign contracts, & over runs were sold to the public.

In the late 1950’s - early 1960’s I recall seeing surplus domestic & foreign Rolling Blocks for sale @ prices which today seemed to be very inexpensive prices. Conditions ranged from new to used & abused.

W/o actually handling/inspecting the rifle, hard to say what it is/was.

Reference book on the military Rollers:

“The Remington Military Rolling Block Rifle”, 3rd ed., by Geo. Lyman

www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1983.html

[longcaribiner]

It looks like it may be a New York State action.  NYS'rs were 50-70.  In addition, all the NYS'r that I have seen have numbers on the butt stock.  My brother and I have NYS'rs with consecutive numbers from the same armory.     

All that being said, Remington made an incredible number of variations for hundreds of contract customers.  A NYS action in 45-70 would be very unusual but certainly not impossible.  In addition, how certain are you that it is indeed 45-70?  There were several odd metric cartridges made for Scandinavian and other countries, some of which were very similar too the 45-70. 

The 43 Reformado cartridge looked much like a 45-70 and had a peculiar belled shape instead of a neck.  As a result, when looking in the chamber, there is no "neck" to see where the chamber constricts.  the bore would slug to a 454, perhaps 457 if well worn.     

Remington rollers are an intriguing item, but the more folks learn about them, the more mystery there seems to be.

[Saloon slug]

The hammer does drop to half cock when the breach is closed like the NYS guns do.

As to the 45-70 my Dad fired it when he first bought it. The Gent he got it from gave him 10 rounds of 45-70 BP that they fired off at the range at time of purchase. Just to get a ruff idea of bore diameter I dropped a 250gr .451 Hornady XTp down the bore it slid down the tube nicely with just a little drag. I know this doesnt say much but I have been to busy to slug the bore out propper. Hopefully I will have time this weekend to break out the egg sinkers and do a slug.

There are no cartouches or other markings other then the 3 line on the tang. Talk about a head scratcher.

Thanks for the help Gents.

[John Traveler]

Saloon Slug,

A 0.451" diameter bullet should NOT be able to slide all the way down a .45-70 bore unless the rifling was almost completed rusted out.  A .45-70 bore measures a nominal 0.445-0.448".  That said, what shape is the rifling in?  It's remotely possible that your RRB is a rebarreled NYS militia action with a commercial or Spanish military barrel rechambered to .45-70.  It's been done, but of course is not a terrifically good idea to fire .45-70 ammunition through a rusted out .43 Spanish bore.

Try doing a chamber cast, or at the very least, use a machinist's scale to measure the chamber length and the length of a case that will fit the chamber.  I am intrigued that your apparently surplus rifle is chambered in a cartridge that was never standard on the NYS militia model action.  Who knows what has  been done to a 135 year old rifle?

[longcaribiner]

There were 4 documented 43 Spanish Cartridges.  There was a .433 bottleneck, (which some folks claim is the same as the 433 Peabody) a carbine version shorter of the 433, a later version that was a millimeter longer, bottlenecked with a 439 bullet (the most commonly encountered 43 Spanish, and the earliest was the 43 reformado, which was the belled cartridge that used a novel brass jacketed 454 bullet.    At one point in time I had one of each.     a 451 bullet shouldn't have passed though any of them without pushing with a rod.      There were some odd straight cased Scandinavian cartridges that were similar.  Even a 12 MM Papal Remington.    Couple that with the sometimes slopppy chambers manufacturered back in the day, and any one of several cartridges may fire in one.        To make matters even stranger, sometimes, surplus rifles were purchased by another country and arsenal refinished to that country's desired cartridge.  When the US Navy went into Korea in the 1880's both sides were armed with the same Remington rollers.     

[Saloon slug]

I will slug it out this weekend. guess I will have to get some Cerosafe also to do the chamber

As to the rifling it is in good shape no pits in the bore and the muzzle is not to badly worn.  But I will find out more after this weekend

[longcaribiner]

here's some variations on straight walled cartridges in the neighborhood of the 45-70
45-70 Van Choat
45-78 Wolcott
45-80 Sharpshooter
45-100 Ballard
450 Nitro
450 Rigby
11.7 x 41.5 Danish
11.7 x 45.5 Danish Remington
11.7 x 51.6R Remington
11.7 x 51R Danish Remington
11.7 x 56R Danish Remington
11.7 x 57R Berdan
12.8 x 45R Papal Remington

[Saloon slug]

Saloon Slug,

A 0.451" diameter bullet should NOT be able to slide all the way down a .45-70 bore unless the rifling was almost completed rusted out.  A .45-70 bore measures a nominal 0.445-0.448".  That said, what shape is the rifling in? 

I had to reread this and check back into it. The 45-70 was named so because it had a .450 bore and held 70grns powder in the case. In a perfect SAMMI barrel the bore should be .450 and the groove diameter should be .456. This is why cast bullets run for the most part .458 so they are slightly larger then the grooves. I have head that old trapdoors tended to run large on their specs in some cases out to .460 to fill the grooves. To me it would not seem strange for a gun that was made ruffly 130 years ago in mass production before computerized equipment to be just a touch off on the specs. Add to that who knows how many rounds have gone down the bore of this rifle. Now the .451 bullet ( I checked it with my dial calipers just to be sure) went down the bore I did have to tap the butt on the toe of my boot a couple times but it went. What does this prove nothing but .001" out of spec is not unheard of heck it still happens with modern guns. I will check the bore this weekend and see from there.

Longcaribiner
Thanks for the info
what are the chances of a mil roller being chambered in the first 6 cartridges? The others I have heard of in the RB.

[longcaribiner]

The first three cartridges were US experimental cartridges, so whether a roller was chambered in them is possible.  I have a Remington roller with US inspector Marks in 58 Berdan

[Saloon slug]

Cool I learn something new every day.

I am going to have my wife drop it off at the gunsmith on Tues to get a chamber cast done. With the hours I have been working I just dont have the time to do it my self.

[Winter Hawk]

So Saloon Slug, what have you found out?  Just curios, mind you.

Ray Newman, the one and only RB I have had was one I bought through the mail in 1968 (just before GCA went into effect).  It was a beater in .43 Egyptian for which I paid $7.50 plus shipping.  I bought a conversion kit in .444 Marlin from Numrich Arms which consisted of an octagonal barrel with sights, butt stock and forearm.  Pid $45 for that, IIRC.  Put it all together and test fired it (tied to a tire) with a l-o-n-g string to the trigger.  It was gosh-awful heavy.  It fell from the wall and the stock broke at the wrist so I gave it away.  I've kicked myself for that act many times over!

-Winter Hawk-

[Horsefeathers]

I have a Rem. R.B. 1871 N.Y. State model that has a Serial Number under the tang. Remove but stock to see if yors has one.    Also if any one knows of any records of Rem.R.B. serial numbers let us know.  Horsefeathers.

[Saloon slug]

Well havent found out much. It has been at the gunsmith for the past several weeks the only smith in my immediate area dosnt come by the shop but every couple of weeks and he hasnt been by yet. If I dont hear anything by Wednesday I will just pick it up and do my own chamber cast. I tried to slug the bore my self but gosh darn it it has 5 groves no idea how to figure that one out.

On another note when my wife dropped it off the gent behind the counter looked over every book in the store and the only thing he could come up with is that it is a cadet rifle built with NYS parts with a .45-70 bbl.

[John Traveler]

Saloon slug,

You can guage odd-groove barrel slugs by passing them through holes of known size.  Bullet sizing dies are a good place to start.  It doesn't have to be exact to the nearest 0.1".  Just get close enough to tell if it is .45 caliber.  That should be around 0.456"-0.460" diameter.  Let us know what you find out.

[StrawHat]

Another way to deal with odd numbered rifling is to wrap the bullet in a piece of shim stock before measuring.

After measuring, subtract twice the thickness of the stock from the number for a fairly close dimension.

[Saloon slug]

I will have to try the shim stock trick (I have some beer cans that will do the trick the original poor mans shim ). I dont have any sizing dies as I have not gotten in to casting my own yet ( I have 20+ pounds of pure lead and a pot just need to get molds and some free time from somewhere).

I still havent heard from the smith I will give a call today and pick it up tomorrow if he hasnt gotten to it yet. I really want to start shooting thhis gun it is just to cool not to.

Thanks again for all the help and info this gun seems to be a real mistery machine.

[oldremguy]

Saloon Slug

The NYS Model Rolling Block Rifle that you have is 45-70. Remington did make some of these guns in 45-70, don't know if a small lot was sold to New York State National Guard or not, or if they were just sold on the commercial market. I have two NYS model rifles that are chambered in 45-70 in my collection. One is like yours, it has barrel band springs on the forearm and a sling swivel on the trigger guard. The second one was made at a later date, having the last patent date of 1874, it has no barrel band springs on the forearm and the sling swivel is not on the trigger guard, but is on the bottom of the butt stock. Have seen 3 of these rifles listed on different gun auction sites or different dealer web sites over the last few years. The are a rare gun to come across.
Hope this information helps answer some of your questions.

Have a good day,
Matt

[Saloon slug]

Thanks Matt. Funny you helped me on 2 different forums with the same question small world.

[Ray Newman]

Jeremy: since you are planning on shooting a rifle that is 100+ years old, I suggest that you find a solid rest for it, attach a long lanyard, & then fire it.

I make this suggestion as the Rolling Block has no really safe way of venting gas from a pierced primer. & none of us know this rifle’s history.

I know that the gunsmith said it was OK to shoot w/ light smokeless loads. A friend once was told the same by his gunsmith, but the block had a firing pin that was a bit too long, it pierced the primer & lucky he was wearing shooting glasses.

Also when opening the block & removing the cartridge, run your finger over the face of the block to make sure the firing pin fully retracted. On original Rollers, the pin “floated” to the rear when the block opened. However, years of grime, dry firing, plus shooting debris can keep the pin from fully retracting & could cause the cartridge to fire before the block is fully locked up.

[Saloon slug]

Well the gun smith finnaly got back to us yesterday it 45-70 alright. I'll have my wife run over and pick it up on tues. Finnaly I can go about ordering bullets and brass.

[dodd3]

I will try to take some more tonight and post them up.

Ok took some more pics. I looked all over the gun and the only mark I can find is a capital B on the left side of the barrel just ahead of the receiver.

Rear sight in the up position it is marked to 1000 yards.


Rear sight in the down position. In this position it is marked to 400 yards.



Muzzle and fore end cap.


Right side of the receiver.


Left side of the receiver.


And a couple of the barrel with the fore end removed. As you can see the metal under the wood is shiny bright.


As you can see it has 3 bbl bands.

If there is something else you would like to see a pic of I will snap it and post it up

Thanks for the help

After having my wife look at it we think the last year on the tang might be 1871 instead of 1874 it is worn and hard to read. Also fond the number 61 stamped in the bbl channel of the fore end.

that rear sight looks like it is on back to front.
bernie

[Saloon slug]

No its on right. If you flip it the other way you cant read the range markings on the flip up sight with out pointing the gun at your self.