Confusing info in loading manuals

[ftlupton]

Loading 30-30 with H335. Lyman manual shows vastly different max loads than Hodgdon site, anybody else notice like info? Example: Lyman says max is 37.5 for 125/130 grain jacketed and Hodgdon says 34 grs. I have loaded 33.5 and they shoot good but I don't have chrono yet.

[Freezer]

    I've seen it many times, I have at least four manuals.  The key is to do a load work up for your rifle.  Be sure to look for pressure signs as your increase your loads.  As you probably know velocity is not always the goal, accuracy is.  I found many rifles don't shoot well at the max velocities and are far more accurate with milder loads.  Alas this rule doesn't always hold true.  My 308 likes a max load of Varget under a 165 gr bullet.  Always start low and work up.

[buck460XVR]

altho I haven't been reloading long, it didn't take me long before I began to  reference a load from at least three different sources.......I tend to take the middle road from there. I always wondered why  veteran reloaders were so dang insistent on having more than one reference manual.

[stimpylu32]

Every lab will have a diffrent set of test equipment , test barrel , powder lot , primer lot , ect . This will give you diffrent readings for every diffrent manual form every diffrent company .

Just a fact of life , we have learned to deal with it . 

stimpy

[charles p]

When I was young and foolish, I read all the manuals and picked the very fastest loading, and then often exceeded it.  I'm a little wiser now, and glad to have my limbs and eyes.

I particularly remember shooting a deer about 35 years ago and could not extract the round.  I climbed down the stand, went to my truck's tailgate, removed a boot and beat the crap out of the bolt until it finally opened.  The range to the deer from the tree stand I was hunting was about 25 yds.  The maximum range I could see in any direction was maybe 50 yds.  What good was that excess load?  On another occasion, I shot loads that recoiled so bad that they sheared the bolts holding a scope base to the receiver.  Accuracy was horrible and I didn't know what was wrong until the screw worked its way into the bolt's channel and blocked its motion.

[wncchester]

"Confusing info in loading manuals "

The ONLY way to avoid that is use only one manual. 

[GameHauler]

Every lab will have a diffrent set of test equipment , test barrel , powder lot , primer lot , ect . This will give you diffrent readings for every diffrent manual form every diffrent company .

Just a fact of life , we have learned to deal with it . 

stimpy

Its not a perfect world

What happen to industrial standards

I am going threw the same thing ftlupton
I spend so much time looking at all the data, I never get any loading done.

Stimpy,
PLEASE do tell how you DEAL with it

Mike

[stimpylu32]

Mike

The problem with Industry Standards is that there may be 20 diffrent ways to get to the same end . 

Dealing with it is the easy part , one load at a time . 

Honestly it comes with experience , and time , when I first started to load my own the numbers were kinda overwhelming , so I took one round and worked from there , once I had a descent handle on that one then I went to another .

Over the years I learned what some powders worked better with certain rounds or families of rounds , like IMR4350 works very well in the 25/06 , 270 , 30/06 . Unique does a wonderful job with cast pistol bullets and some jacketed pistol ones too . 

I have just started to branch out into some of the powders that were either not available to me before or that I just never considered like the VV and Ramshot stuff .

The best advice I can give is to be patient , there are just too many things to try and learn over night , start in one place and work from there .

Richard

[GameHauler]

That just Ain't cut'n it Stimp

I need 3 sub moa rounds worked up by yesterday
so get after it and take All the variables out of loading
so Dummies like me can can just pull a lever

GEEZZ

Mike

[roper]

Loading 30-30 with H335. Lyman manual shows vastly different max loads than Hodgdon site, anybody else notice like info? Example: Lyman says max is 37.5 for 125/130 grain jacketed and Hodgdon says 34 grs. I have loaded 33.5 and they shoot good but I don't have chrono yet.

Don't mind me saying this reloading manual give  data on certain loads tested with a given bullet.  Lyman data used a 125gr(Sierra) bullet Hodgdon used a 130gr(Speer) bullet they both used pressure 24" test barrels same twist.  Neither Speers or Sierra used H-335 in thier reloading data they also used production type rifle for their test so you don't have a way to double check data unless your shooting a 24"bolt action or custom 30-30 you may not reach the velocity posted by Lyman or Hodgdon.

[wncchester]

"...take All the variables out of loading so Dummies like me can can just pull a lever (and get sub-MOA)"

Industry standards for working with organic chemistry is to vary the elements to achieve the deseried results.  Gun powder and primers are organic chemicals and they vary.  Brass is an alloy or mixture, not a compound, so it varies too.  Firearms are different, no two are identical so each one has individual characteristics.  Etc.

There are no magic formulas or secret loads that can provide specific results for anyone. 

Relaoding is the wrong activity for pople who won't or can't deal with varibles.

[GameHauler]

VERY well said
Guess you missed the Smilies in my post
I do enjoy the challenge and research.

I realize that on this one armed bandit I can not afford to loose

Mike

[BBF]

You can always start with the least and work up      s l o w l y      somewhere along the line you are going to get the best groups with that particular rifle, bullet and powder oh, ....throw in different primers and brass to the mix. Keeps a guy busy for a good many days

[coyotejoe]

I do understand the reasons why data may vary. However, each source insists one should never exceed the maximum and do not reduce the starting load. But I've seen instances where the starting load from one source exceeds the maximum of another source. Now we're being told that the old signs we used to judge pressure, such as primer flattening and case head expansion don't really mean a thing! Now what are we to do? You can't reduce the starting load, you can't exceed the maximum, you can't work up because you can't trust pressure indicators. I guess I'll just keep on doing what has worked for me for the past forty years.

[Freezer]

  This poor guy is going to be more confused after reading these posts than before   I have a number of reloading manuals.  Most will indicate the best powder for a particular round.  I write the data form each manual for a powder they all concour on then start the load work up from starting at the lowest charge and work up slowly from there.  I tried it with my 280 and found it likes IMR 4350  just a little short of max loads.  Just for giggles I decided to try Varget in my 308, it likes'm hot (2900 fps) and will hold sub moa for three shots.  My brothers gun is an oddity, his 270 gets it best accuracy from a middle of the road charge and gets 2800fps with a 130gr Game king.  So the main key is choose a powder, primer and brass,  start low and work up.  What ever shoots best stay with it.  If you want to experiment that's fine but every time you change a component start over again with your load work up.

[ftlupton]

All good info here, thanks. Have been a trapshooter for 35 yrs and loaded probably 500,000 shells, used Red Dot, 700X, Clays and International Clays, that's it, simple allows us to shoot a whole bunch. Love loadin metallic sick of shotshells. I'm going to invest in a chrono, use just 2 manuals and work my way to the most accurate without pressure signs. All good.

[PaulS]

Ftlupton,
If you are going to use just two manuals get one from the manufacturer of your bullets and the other from the powder manufacturer.
Remember that any change in components can lead to complications in the load work-up. Always start low and work your loads up to find the most accurate - never exceeding the maximum listed loads.

[steve4102]

Ftlupton,
If you are going to use just two manuals get one from the manufacturer of your bullets and the other from the powder manufacturer.
Remember that any change in components can lead to complications in the load work-up. Always start low and work your loads up to find the most accurate - never exceeding the maximum listed loads.

  Work up loads to find the most accurate?  Any other reasons to start low and work up?  If accuracy is the reason for load work up, why not just start at the top and work down?  Seems like this would be a better alternative if both accuracy and velocity are the goals. 
  Never exceed maximum loads!  How would you handle this  scenario.  Identical components, 300WSM, 190gr Sierra .....  Lyman 48 lists a max charge of 760 at 62.7gr/2864fps while Sierra #5 list 760 at 65.2gr/2900fps.  That's the exact same components with a 2.5gr difference in powder charge.    Or this powder, Lyman 48 H414, 61.0/2844fps while Sierra # 5 lists 65gr of H 414 as max.  That's a woppin 4gr difference with identical components. 
  Seems to me that the ONLY way to "never exceed maximum listed loads" is to find a ton of data and always use the lowest published max.   

[stimpylu32]

Ftlupton,
If you are going to use just two manuals get one from the manufacturer of your bullets and the other from the powder manufacturer.
Remember that any change in components can lead to complications in the load work-up. Always start low and work your loads up to find the most accurate - never exceeding the maximum listed loads.

  Work up loads to find the most accurate?  Any other reasons to start low and work up?  If accuracy is the reason for load work up, why not just start at the top and work down?   Seems like this would be a better alternative if both accuracy and velocity are the goals. 
  Never exceed maximum loads!  How would you handle this  scenario.  Identical components, 300WSM, 190gr Sierra .....  Lyman 48 lists a max charge of 760 at 62.7gr/2864fps while Sierra #5 list 760 at 65.2gr/2900fps.  That's the exact same components with a 2.5gr difference in powder charge.    Or this powder, Lyman 48 H414, 61.0/2844fps while Sierra # 5 lists 65gr of H 414 as max.  That's a woppin 4gr difference with identical components. 
  Seems to me that the ONLY way to "never exceed maximum listed loads" is to find a ton of data and always use the lowest published max.   

Thats just asking for trouble , what may be MAX for one gun may be way over MAX for another -- ALWAYS start low and work up -- NEVER the other way around !!!!!!!!!

Stimpylu32

[steve4102]

what may be MAX for one gun may be way over MAX for another

  How would you know?

[stimpylu32]

Over the last 25 years of loading have taught me a few things , the amount of chamber slop will make a difference as well as the amount of leade or throat , the steel that the rifle is made of will also make a big difference . The 45/70 is a prime example , they list 3 diffrent load levels for this round just for these very reasons .

I have a pair of 270s that I tried to use the same load in , one was a Ruger bolt action and the other was a H&R single shot . the cases came out of the Ruger just fine but the cases came out of the H&R in 2 pieces with complete case head separation . both were new Winchester brass loaded to the same COAL , same bullet and same powder charge .

Both were just fine as far as head space so I know that was not the cause for the failure of the H&R rounds , ya like a dumb axx I fired 3 just to see if it was me .

Also ask any of the bullet or powder manufactures and they will tell you to ALWAYS start low and work up , anything else is just asking for trouble big time .

stimpy

[AtlLaw]

Seems to me that the ONLY way to "never exceed maximum listed loads" is to find a ton of data and always use the lowest published max.   

Actually, that's usually what I do...

why not just start at the top and work down? 

When you said that I thought you were kidding,    but when you said ...

what may be MAX for one gun may be way over MAX for another

How would you know?

I guess you are opinionated enough to be serious... 

[steve4102]

  I am serious.  I would like to know how you can tell if a load is safe in rifle A and not safe in rifle B.  A manual can't tell you this, or can it?  What do you look for to determine "safe"?

[stimpylu32]

Steve

Unfortunately there are no Hard & Fast rules to tell you when you have hit max for any given firearm , the pressure signs , that for over 50 years now we have been told would work have now been tossed away as fairy tales .

At this point we have a few diffrent ways to find a max load , one being a Chronograph for checking the FPS of a given round , as well as the loading manuals themselves . Most all of the better manuals will list loads at diffrent levels for diffrent types or brands of firearms , Ruger & TC handguns are a prime example compaired to the older single action revolvers , also the old style Trapdoor type rifles compaired to the much stronger Ruger #1's .

One must also exercise some logic into their loading practices , if loading for a gun that is made of new modern materials the chances are much better that it will hold up to a much higher pressure level than say a gun made 100 years ago .

I know that this is not the answer that you were looking for but till someone comes out with a pressure testing instrument that will adapt to any firearm , anywere we will have to make due with what we have .

stimpy 

[roper]

  I am serious.  I would like to know how you can tell if a load is safe in rifle A and not safe in rifle B.  A manual can't tell you this, or can it?  What do you look for to determine "safe"?

Steve, if you can get copy of Speer #13 and on page 53 under CASE HEAD EXPANSION they explain how to measure for pressure and I think it's an accepted standard by most.  Myself I use a good set of Calipers and chrongraph.  Well good luck

[steve4102]

CASE HEAD EXPANSION they explain how to measure for pressure and I think it's an accepted standard by most.

  Thanks roper.   Do you actually use Case Head Expansion to determine high pressure?  I have read that it is nothing more that pissing in the wind or reading tea leaves.  I duno!  Does it work for you?  If so, can you give us some insight on how it's done?

[quickdtoo]

Here's one man's opinion on Case Head Expansion(CHE) and Pressure Ring Expansion(PRE)...

Tim

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/dbramwell%20july%2019%2004.pdf

Conclusions
1. CHE and PRE do provide some information, but it’s mixed with a lot of random noise.
The mix contains more random noise than information.

2. Both the PRE and the CHE methods do poorly at giving the same answer when
comparing cases subjected to near-identical conditions.

3. A measurement system can be useful, even if it is imprecise. The problem is that
PRE, the better of the two systems, can just barely distinguish a plinker load from a barrel
buster. That’s only two categories, and not very useful. You can average to improve
precision, but it takes an impractical number of cartridges to get a questionable standard
of comparison.

4. PRE and CHE always do always give an answer, but I can give you a random number
table that is almost as good. That has the added advantage of not requiring a micrometer.
Since firearms are typically very conservatively designed, your chances of blowing one
up are slim, as long as you stick to reasonable powder choices. The illusion is that the
methods work. The fact is that both methods can lead you to think that you are safe,
when, in fact, you are punishing your firearm.

5. In preparing this article, I spent $200 on a flat granite plate, and the nicest used
electronic blade micrometer I could find. I have other uses for these tools, which is a
good thing, because their cost exceeds that of a strain gage system, and they are a poor
indicator of whether my cartridges are safe.

6. Since conventional pressure signs did not develop, even at 10,000 PSI over limit, it
seems that they are not a reliable indicator, either. That seems to narrow the field of safe
options to three: 1) Use commercial ammunition. 2) Reload, and stick to the book
loads. 3) Reload, study the books, and get a strain gage.

7. As the title of the article suggests, both the PRE and CHE methods should be retired,
and “Rest In Peace”.

[steve4102]

  OK, so PRE and CHE are no longer an option for determining high pressure.  So what methods do you use to determine a safe/unsafe load.

[roper]

  Thanks roper.   Do you actually use Case Head Expansion to determine high pressure?  I have read that it is nothing more that pissing in the wind or reading tea leaves.  I duno!  Does it work for you?  If so, can you give us some insight on how it's done?
[/quote] 

Steve first off the only proven and true method for pressure testing is with a pressure barrel.  Read this
http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/Measure%20Pressure.htm

For me I find at the range testing loads measuring case expansion along with chrongraph give me a real work data on that rifle.  Sure it's not 100%

[buck460XVR]

Steve

Unfortunately there are no Hard & Fast rules to tell you when you have hit max for any given firearm , the pressure signs , that for over 50 years now we have been told would work have now been tossed away as fairy tales .


stimpy 

funny how things that years ago were the standards of the sport/industry are now considered obsolete/inadequate. Prime example is the 30/30 rifle. For years it was THE deer rifle, nowadays it is considered by many to be only a marginal deer cartridge. Funny, it still kills deer just as dead as it always did.

One thing that never changes over time is using common sense and good judgment.........and the value of experience. Not heeding warnings given by those with much more experience is not, IMHO, using common sense and sound judgment. Thinking one knows more than one with many years of hands on knowledge and rebuking info given to us by those with the correct equipment and the intelligence to use it is plain foolish. Powder and bullet manufacturers want us to be happy with their products, thus they generally will give us info for the safest and most accurate loads they know. If they stay well within the parameters of safe pressures I assume they do it for a reason...and I also assume  that reason is not for us to see how far above their published data we can go before we hurt ourselves. If loads have been toned down over the years I also assume it's not because guns are being made weaker, but that too many "more is better" fools have crept the safe loads beyond safe....and that those publishing the data are only allowing a little more cushion for these idiots. As stimpy said, the methods used for years for the average reloader to use worked....for those that paid attention and were diligent. I assume the reason these methods were abandoned is not that they were necessarily wrong, but far too many ignored them. I was  told by an old reloader at the range we frequent that flattened primers and hard extraction were a legitimate sign only when compared to a known safe load.....he also told me, "if you know your guns and know how they shoot, when somethin' don't feel right, it probably isn't!" Since I am new to reloading, I always compare my new loads to loads I know are safe. Generally those are factory loads. I know most of my guns quite well and know their accuracy and their recoil shooting factory loads. When I take new loads to the range, I take known safe loads with me to compare. When they vary from known safe loads one way or the other I assume it's just not a coincidence. It's not scientific, and is not totally accurate, but it is practical and I feel it is using the common sense the good lord gave me.

 I also tend to stay on the moderate side of the published load tables...instead of loading a cartridge to max or beyond to make a gun bigger, I just shoot a bigger gun. Pretty simple. My two sons also shoot the ammo I reload....another reason I want to error on the safe side.

6. Since conventional pressure signs did not develop, even at 10,000 PSI over limit, it
seems that they are not a reliable indicator, either. That seems to narrow the field of safe
options to three: 1) Use commercial ammunition. 2) Reload, and stick to the book
loads. 3) Reload, study the books, and get a strain gage.

#2 works for me......