Author Topic: carriage wood (Read 4005 times)

GGaskill · « **Reply #60 on:** August 22, 2008, 06:25:10 PM »

12/4 reads as twelve quarters, the implication being that it is three inches thick. But that may be the pre-milling (or rough) size, as all the 8/4 that I have ever seen is really only 1.75" or so thick.

dan610324 · « **Reply #61 on:** August 22, 2008, 06:54:08 PM »

why complicate things more then neccesary ?? wouldnt it be easier to just say 2 inch or 3 inch ??

thelionspaw · « **Reply #62 on:** August 22, 2008, 07:30:21 PM »

In retail, if I ask a yard for 5/4 and I get a dressed 5/4. See stair treads. Ask for 3/4 and you get a dressed 3/4.

The saw mills I frequent on the other hand, can call stock by inches. I ask a mill for 2 inch and I get a rough 2 inch which eventually becomes a dressed 1 1/2 inch that in retail is still called a 2 inch as in 2 by 4 or 2 by 6, etc..

I can also ask the same sawyer for 8/4 and he'll give me a sideways glance and spit his tobacco.

When Tracy asks for 12/4 I am reasonably sure he wants a dressed full 3 inch. Otherwise he will get a 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 dressed. Big stuff like blocks in specialty retail is usually dressed and is usually sold by inches. That's the way I buy carving blocks, by full inches and it is dressed as such.

Clear as mud; right? That's why I would close my yard on Saturday.

rc

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #63 on:** August 23, 2008, 06:34:34 AM »

Dan, Most of what we learned about oak was learned from those who process it or build things from it. White oak is far superior for artillery carriages for two main reasons. First it's grain is waterproof. Red oak is an open grain wood and water can pass through it.

The way to tell for sure is to look at the large pores in the end grain. If they are open (you might have to use a razor blade and make a clean slice across the end grain surface), it is a red oak. If they are totally plugged up with a white crystalline substance (tyloses), then it is white oak.

If the whiskey distillers used aging barrels made of red oak instead of white oak, most of the liquor would leak out over several days. Now THAT would be a real shame.

Second, white oak is far more resistant to decay than red oak and white oak resists insect attack very well also.

The last time I was at the lumber yard, I asked if anyone spoke Latin and nobody did, so I don't know their Latin, scientific names. Then when I asked if anyone knew any Latin names, all I got was Rodriquez, Hernandez, etc., so I gave up.

George and Richard have already explained 12/4 vs 3" very well, but the real reason they use all of these different forms of measure is money. If you are not a well informed customer, then they make more money. Did you ever buy a car or truck? Enough said!

Quote from: thelionspaw on August 22, 2008, 07:30:21 PM

When Tracy asks for 12/4 I am reasonably sure he wants a dressed full 3 inch.

That's what I want, but what I get is 12/4 rough around here, which will yeild 2.75" if I am really lucky, but more commonly 2.65" or 2.70", AND your cost per board foot is calculated on "rough" lumber, not surfaced lumber or what the final volumetric yield will be.

Moderators, We will be coming through and hope to see everyone who was at the Floyd shoot last year and we will tell you where we find our thicker white oak carriage lumber. After all, it's not rare, it just takes a long, long time to kiln dry it and the number of months that it's relatively easy to find are few. All this works AGAINST the casual buyer, which is why we are seriously looking now, a full eight months before we absolutely need it. A special thanks to Richard the "Kindhearted" for his help in our quest.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

dan610324 · « **Reply #64 on:** August 23, 2008, 08:18:57 AM »

thank you all for explaining this to me .

irishman · « **Reply #65 on:** August 23, 2008, 09:34:13 AM »

Tracy & Mike,

PM sent

Michael

Cannoneer · « **Reply #66 on:** August 23, 2008, 10:43:31 AM »

Dan, Richard has had me reexamine Latin lately so I'll cover this part of your question; quercus alba is the literal Latin translation for white oak. Everything else has been just about covered, as has already been said a hard and heavy wood with great wear resistance and medium bending and crushing strength, not very stiff, which allows it to take an impact shock well. This wood has a high tannic acid content which is what acts as natural insecticide and anti fungi agent, unfortunately this acid is also responsible for its one major drawback as a gun carriage, it reacts badly with ferrous metal. Iron and steel begin to corrode when they're in contact with the bare wood and also create stains on the wood. If someone's intention is to get the most strength possible from this wood then one important thing hasn't been mentioned and that is that white oak should always be quarter sawn to derive the maximum strength of the wood. Because of the grain configuration of the wood, quarter sawing will give the wood remarkable structural strength and make it much less likely to check, warp or crack than if it had been plain sawn.

Red oak should not be discounted as a fine material for making gun carriages out of. An American cannon and carriage maker, Steen Cannon and Ordnance Works manufactures full scale carriages out of both red and white oak and from other posts I've read so have many members of this forum.

dan610324 · « **Reply #67 on:** August 23, 2008, 11:21:24 AM »

quarter sawn ??

please explain for me , its very important to know that we dont make any mistake with this timber .

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #68 on:** August 23, 2008, 11:40:44 AM »

Dan, Quarter sawing is sawing a section of log into quarters and then sawing that section into boards perpendicular to the growth rings or close to perpendicular at the edges of the quarter. Rift sawing is sawing along radial lines which produces very strong lumber with reduced shrinkage, but a lot more waste, and is therefore, most expensive. This quarter sawed wood is priced at a premium because this practice creates many smaller pieces or slivers of wood which are less desirable. The visual characteristics of wood cut this way are greatly enhanced, however, because the ray bundles which are now exposed to a much greater extent, reflect far more light than the surrounding wood fibers. You can get tiger-stripe, quilted, and other visually unusual patterns with this method of sawing. Oak and Maple are most commonly cut this way, but other woods can obtain a unique look because of this technique.

But, we are slaves to tradition, so we cannot use wood cut this way; they could not cut long timbers of 16 to 20 feet for seacoast carriages this way, because, even original growth oak was not THIS large in diameter. We have made some jewelry boxes and gunstocks from quarter sawn maple and they are very nice.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

PS Michael, We don;t see the PM anywhere, better send it again.

dan610324 · « **Reply #69 on:** August 23, 2008, 12:00:32 PM »

sorry but now Im not sure of how you mean
should it be sawn from outside in to center of log ?
then all boards will be shaped as an wedge , is that correct ??
could you please make an sketch that show me how it should be cut that I dont destroy 2 cubic meters of high quality oak

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #70 on:** August 23, 2008, 12:12:01 PM »

Dan, The shape of the boards is the same as with the plain sawing method; that is why you end up with quite a large number of smaller, wedge-shaped pieces which are much less valuable. Per the explanation site below,the alternate method of quarter sawing wastes even more than the primary method which results in a higher cost per board foot.

Please go to this site to get a very clear understanding of quarter sawing. http://www.grandpacliff.com/Science/Thinking.htm

Regards,
M&T

Div Arty · « **Reply #71 on:** August 23, 2008, 12:20:46 PM »

Dan try this link. http://www.allwoodwork.com/article/woodwork/plainorquartersawn.htm

dan610324 · « **Reply #72 on:** August 23, 2008, 01:58:36 PM »

ok now I got it , but it just made me more confused

the quarter sawn have many advantages because of the quality ,
but to be honest I must say that the plain sawn is more beautiful

now I dont know what to do

maybe I must find another log , quarter saw one and plain saw the other .

thelionspaw · « **Reply #73 on:** August 23, 2008, 03:53:34 PM »

Continuing Education: Red Oak=Quercus borealis. White oak=Quercus alba. Red oak=44 lb. per square foot. White oak=47 lb. per square foot. An 8'x2"x4" board will give-up 3 gal. of H2O while drying. Kiln drying these oaks is not simplex. An incorrect process and easily split the wood.

The sites you two recommended were quite adequate in their explainations of quarter and plain sawn.

Tracy,
I forgot to put catskill before the catskillwoodnet.com Most of these mills are a 150 mile RT for me. Best to enter www.catskillwoodnet.org-secondary-documents-2006wood_prod_Directory.pdf
and you will go directly to suppliers of what you want.

When they only say "Oak", I figure it's Red oak. Some specify "White Oak". Let me know about the other site I sent you with dealers by state. If it's any good for you, let me know. It may give you a source close enough to you. I'll call my parent group list around here if it isn't of any value.

On the off chance I could catch my friend at his mill on a Saturday, I went today but as I figured, he was closed. Calling is always like dropping a stone down a well with him. Better to make the trip.

Do you own a planer?

rc

thelionspaw · « **Reply #74 on:** August 23, 2008, 04:58:38 PM »

No! A am not senile (well maybe a little). This computer is the pits! O.K., so google this www.catskillwoodnet.org/secondary/documents/2006wood_prod_directory.pdf I think that has finally gotten it. Somehow my computer's Favorites shows underlines and I get the site from Favorites but not if I enter the address with underlines.

? If back slashes are substituted for the underlines, as presented above, you should get the site. I hope this works. SORRY Tracy! If it doesn't, take two and hit to the right.

rc

GGaskill · « **Reply #75 on:** August 23, 2008, 05:56:01 PM »

The underlines you see when a character string is a web address/link/URL are generated because it IS a link (in most cases; it is possible to suppress the underline.) When you are cutting or typing a URL to put in the text of a post, do not use your word processor or the underline feature of the forum to add an underline; making it a link will do that for you.

thelionspaw · « **Reply #76 on:** August 24, 2008, 03:32:02 AM »

O.K.. Got it (I think!). Underline is automatic. Thank you.

What is, ".......... Always Tyranny"? I can't read the fore-part. what is it on? I always took it to be a shell casing with a spent primer.

rc

GGaskill · « **Reply #77 on:** August 24, 2008, 06:00:11 AM »

What is, ".......... Always Tyranny"?

Presumably you are asking about the avatar. It is a picture of the muzzle of my beer can mortar with a concrete filled beer can in the bore. The actual phrase is Virginia's motto, Sic Semper Tyrannis, which I translate as Thus Ever to Tyrants (or Tyranny) although I see most web sites translate it as "thus always to tyrants."

Made before I had accurate plans so it's not really an accurate model of a coehorn or a coastal mortar. But it does good work on beer cans. But it's getting heavier every year, which is a pain.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #78 on:** August 24, 2008, 06:51:12 AM »

You certainly had me fooled, George. Ever since I saw your avatar I thought, isn't that kool, he turns custom brass for an old favorite revolver and uses a custom stamping die to press the letters of the motto into the case head. Just another reminder to never assume anything! I bet your mortar does excellent work on beer cans, as for the weight. I'm thinking of getting of going from that 4" 1797 down to juice can size; they are still visible at 100 yards and concrete isn't too accurate past that distance anyway.

Richard, The Catskill link works fine and gives us a lot of phone numbers which is great. The other WoodFinder link has been tried before and this time as well, but no luck. Almost all of the places listed are very ordinary, RETAIL yards with no custom sawing or thicker white oak. We do have a planer which works well for oak and maple in the 13" size after some serious adjustments were made! The jointer is an ancient one that never needs adjustment only knife sharpening. We certainly appreciate the help, we really do. Thank you.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

thelionspaw · « **Reply #79 on:** August 24, 2008, 07:20:40 AM »

O.K.. Thus always tyranny. Tyrants is tyrannUs.

Nice piece. About 90 lbs? I can empathise with HEAVY. I would say that you have a 2 man task or gorilla-like arms to wrap around it for a one man carry. How about a hand truck? I use one to move my welder around.

I roll almost 500 lbs up a slope in a gravel yard and over a 4" concrete lip to get my beast back into its cage (called a garage). I don't roll it out as often anymore. It's the last 10' that gets me. My wife told me to get another winch like I have on the trailer and mount it in the garage. If I attach the cannon to the limber, it rolls easier but enough is enough! How much crappola am I going to haul out just to let the lion roar?

If they made viagra for cannons and mortars, it would be easier to get them up to where we want them to be.

Mike and Tracy,
That's what I'm here for. It's a fraternity isn't it? We help one-another out.
rc

dan610324 · « **Reply #80 on:** August 24, 2008, 11:33:46 AM »

cant agree more
only nice and helpful people here
ok except for that crazy swede

GGaskill · « **Reply #81 on:** August 24, 2008, 11:58:08 AM »

Nice piece. About 90 lbs? I can empathise with HEAVY. I would say that you have a 2 man task or gorilla-like arms to wrap around it for a one man carry. How about a hand truck? I use one to move my welder around.

The tube is about 90 lbs by itself; but even the 8/4 oak is getting heavy. My bowling ball mortar is even heavier; its problem is loading into the truck. Unloading is pretty easy; just roll it out onto the ground. I do use dollies to move them when on pavement but in the field, I try to drive to the firing point.

thelionspaw · « **Reply #82 on:** August 24, 2008, 03:18:58 PM »

All you should need is an inexpensive $29 WalMart winch, mounted in the center of a plank that extends a little above and beyond the bed. Just crank the artillery up the plank/ramp. When you reach the limit, easily raise the ground side end of the plank with the mortar bearing the weight on the opposite end and slide the plank into the bed, just enough to off load the piece and then do it all over again with the second piece. I raise and lower my 500 lb. beast from the trailer this way. A one man operation and you won't need an operation.

rc

dan610324 · « **Reply #83 on:** August 24, 2008, 03:58:13 PM »

anyone here knowing any good site where its possible to find high quality pictures of different wood when its finished and oilpolished ??
there is probably thousands of different beautiful woods that most of us havent heard about .

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #84 on:** August 25, 2008, 05:33:14 AM »

Dan, WE FOUND IT! The link below brings you to the:

MOTHER OF ALL WOOD IDENTIFICATION SITES

With 699 Species and over 35,000 photos, all of them accurate in color and clarity, I know that there is no site we have ever found that has more examples of beautiful exotic and domestic wood than this one!!

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/

Have Fun!

Mike and Tracy

dan610324 · « **Reply #85 on:** August 25, 2008, 11:44:12 AM »

WOW WOW

thats the best site I ever have seen
thank you very much for this info

dan610324 · « **Reply #86 on:** August 29, 2008, 10:47:03 PM »

ANYONE FROM TEXAS HERE ??

thanks to mike and tracy from seacoast artillery I have spent some hours looking at the wood identification site , there I fond something called TEXAS EBONY .

is there anyone here who could help me to find an local sawmill who got that wood ??

I need it desperately

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #87 on:** August 30, 2008, 12:23:38 AM »

Dan, Glad we found that "mother load" . It gives people a good starting point when they are trying to find a specific color or special grain for a wood project. It appears that you have an interest in Texas Ebony. You can send us $10,000 U.S. and we will buy a whole tree for you on EBAY which was recently cut down! But, if you want some of this wood for a smaller project, then take a look at these two sites:

http://woodworldtx.com/ AND http://www.texaswoodcrafts.net/

At either one of these you can buy a lesser quantity and the shipping charges will not kill your budget! Remember this wood is approx. 63 pounds per cubic foot which is heavier than water. This wood will not float. We are interested in what you want to build with this exotic looking wood.

Good luck.

Tracy and Mike

thelionspaw · « **Reply #88 on:** August 30, 2008, 02:06:41 PM »

Send Dan some seeds. When he reaches my age, he can cut his own tree down and save a bundle.

Richard

dan610324 · « **Reply #89 on:** August 30, 2008, 05:15:15 PM »

I dont have any specific idea yet , just collecting now for comming use . but of course its for cannon carriages .
have been out all day yesterday and collecting plum and apple trees , will continue tomorrow to saw them to 1 and 2 inch boards .
if you are serious and want high quality it need to dry minimum 5 years , or preferably 10 years before you use it .
I got some old wood I use now , but planning for the future is never wrong .
so the idea with seeds wasnt so stupid

please send some , do you think they will grow as far north as I live

probably not

I tried to start growing walnut trees 10 years ago , but they didnt survive .

wouldnt take more then 300 years for them to grow to an suitable size to cut down

then I would have had something to do when Ive grown up