California Hunting- Condor Zone- Questions

[tn_junk]

Just talked with the California Fish and Wildlife people, and they left me even more confused than I was about lead/no-lead ammo.
From what they say, I cannot possess any .22 rimfire ammo, even though it is legal for certain species, because it is not legal for others due to the fact that it is lead. Same rules apply to ALL shotgun and blackpowder ammo. Though legal in certain situations, possession is not legal because it might be illegal in other situations. Doesn't matter if I am actually hunting with it or not. 
Leaded centerfire rifle and pistol ammo is also excluded.
Bottom line that I understand is that if I possess any leaded ammo, of any kind whatsoever, even locked in my truck, while in the condor zone, I can be ticketed. Sounds like my idea of hunting in Californy may be more trouble than it is worth.
Anbody have any "real life" experience with this?

Thanks

alan

[Ladobe]

An Internet search will give you more links to the "condor" lead ban in CA than you'll care to read.

My "real life" experience is I used to live in Carmel (Monterey Peninsula), very near the strongest strong point the condors had left in CA when I lived there (the San Carlos Ranch in Carmel Valley and the coastal range south to Lucia).    Seeing them was appreciated by hunters and liberals alike in those days.    But they were doomed for extinction then, and they still are now.   The ban is just another liberal thing to stop hunting/shooting in the Republik, with the ban area including the entire "historical" range of the bird in CA even though they haven't flown in many of those areas for at least 40-50 years.

   

[Siskiyou]

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/

[mcwoodduck]

They do make lead free 22 mags.  They work well I use some on ground squirells two months ago with great success on the Tajon Ranch.
They had closed the ranch to hunting cause a condor ate a tire wheel weight and gave it's self lead poisoning and they closed the ranch to all hunting requardless of ammo construction. 
All I can say is Vote Republican.  Better Vote Conservitive.
The Diff between a Lib and a Conservitive is:
A lib thinks Government is the answer to any question and requlates Industry to achieve this and limit your choices while increasing costs and tax revinues.
A conservitive thinks that Industry is the answer to the question and they can provide the best product at the cheapest price and give you the most choices and Government should get out of the free market.

[yooper77]

It's really no differant than needing to use nontoxic shoot for waterfowl, also includes other target birds in a nontoxic shot area.

North Dakota, has waterfowl production areas, that require nontoxic shot even during Dove hunting.  Its the law and either obey it or go elsewhere.

yooper77

[mcwoodduck]

I think the problem comes with the posession part of the law.  I think you can clean out my truck three times and there still will be a couple of loose 22's and a 12ga with a 1 1/8 oz of 7.5's in it somewhere. 
The only question I have about the condors and the lead is if it's a bullet that has been left in the critter then why are the Eagles, Hawks, and Owls not also getting lead poisoning?  If you see a gut pile in the area there is one of the four birds on either the small game/ varmints, dove parts, or a gut pile from a deer or hog.  Not to mention hawks swooping down and taking wounded quail before you can get there.   Then lets add all the small preditors (Coyote, Fox, Weasles, and Cats) that eat carrion as well and there should be lead poisoned animals everywhere.
Now I understand the reasoning behind the ban on lead for Ducks.  The 6-2 shot size are what ducks and geese use as gravel in their craw and will pick up shot and use it to grind up their food.   I also have not seen too many critters killed with a rifle that the bullet is still in the critter.  Granted it happens and I have about four projectiles from big game animals I have shot but they were all recovered from  either bone or mussle.  Not from the guts, lungs, or Heart.
I don't mind playing by the rules or spending three times as much for shells to hunt but there should be a real reason with data backing up their claim that it's bullets left in gut piles that are giving the Condors lead poisoning.

[pdrhtr]

I live in California and hunt in the non lead area, it was a pain at first but once you accept that all your ammo that you have been stock pilling is no good you just kida accept it and hunt

[Siskiyou]

Leading poisoning of Eagles, hawks, and owls has been identified but it is not as big as issue as the rare and endangered Condor.   The bald Eagle is making a nice recovery with the elimination of DDT, but it has taken a lot of years.

In addition you will find the majority of Eagles wintering in California on or near the shoreline of lakes.  I enjoy watching them when I am out in my boat in December and January.  The majority of residential eagle nest I have spot are relatively close to shorelines.  Typically the birds live on the fish that reside in the upper layer of water, not becoming contaminated by the mercury in our lakes.

There has been a lot of discussion in the past about the lead in the food chain at Lower Klamath and Tule Lake Nation Refuges.  Crippled ducks and geese become part of the food chain and are ingested by Eagles, hawks, and owls.  One of the arguments for steel shot was the impact on other critters in the food chain.

[Ladobe]

Siskiyou - Thanks for the additional input.

Collateral damage to any species has been a concern of wildlife managers for decades.   But it was almost always centered around agricultural, other control and industrial poisons.   Add lead ammunition to the list.   

Big difference between the other raptors you mention and the condor - hunters verses scavengers.   While all of them will scavenge at times and so are susceptible to any contamination in carrion (lead, other poisons), the others do not rely almost entirely on carrion like the condor does.   That gives the liberals support in banning lead/poisons in the name of the condor, and there is no way to argue the point with them.

But there are arguments.   I'm all for saving the condors, and any other endangered species.   But by reasonable means, and these liberal means in CA are not reasonable.   Banning lead ammo in the entire historic range of the condor when they have not flown in the majority of that range for decades is not reasonable.   Banning it where they actually do fly may be.   Add that the remaining population is so low they probably will never have stock from breeding programs to restock that entire range.   So I see it as just another ploy in using the condor as an excuse to ban shooting/hunting in CA more than to save the condor.

IF the bullet manufacturers get on the band wagon they may cover some of the bases, but not all of them can be covered and still give shooters/hunters a viable alternative to lead in ammunition.   They got around shot for the scattergunners despite all the kicking and screaming by the waterfowlers (although I for one still prefer lead shot).    They may even get around some of the bullets (although some of us who have tried solid copper, etc bullets know they leave a lot to be desired).   But they will never come up with a viable alternative for the traditional muzzleloaders who shoot PRB.   

Guess only time will tell whether they come up with viable alternative ammo, or if they save the condor.

[d_hiker]

I think Alan's (tn_junk) concern is the possession part of the law.  He is on a year long hunting/fishing/camping/traveling trip.  He has no home other than his truck.  So he has his stock and supplies that he needs for the trip.  He would abide by the law of using non-lead ammo if he gets a chance to hunt there.  But his worldly possesions are in his truck.  Which would include ammo for the rest of the trip.  It sounds like his best case scenario would be to run out of ammo before he crossing into California, buy what he needs during his stay in CA and then restocking once he leaves the state.  Or rent a locker at the bus station and stash his lead ammo on the days that he is hunting and wait for the NEWS helicopter.   

[UtahRob]

An Internet search will give you more links to the "condor" lead ban in CA than you'll care to read.

My "real life" experience is I used to live in Carmel (Monterey Peninsula), very near the strongest strong point the condors had left in CA when I lived there (the San Carlos Ranch in Carmel Valley and the coastal range south to Lucia).    Seeing them was appreciated by hunters and liberals alike in those days.    But they were doomed for extinction then, and they still are now.   The ban is just another liberal thing to stop hunting/shooting in the Republik, with the ban area including the entire "historical" range of the bird in CA even though they haven't flown in many of those areas for at least 40-50 years.

   

Ditto !!

I lived in California for 40 years until i move to N Utah 3 years ago .
The lead free ban is just a way to stop hunting , just like they stopped logging with the spotted  owl . California stinks , i gave up hunting in calif in 1975 until i moved here .  Most people in Calif don't hunt or like hunters . They don't like  you enjoying  hunting or even fishing. I had some women give me some crap while setting up my fly rod when they saw my Catch and release stick on my bumper . Thats why it know as the Peoples Republic of California  . Just a bunch mother earth , Gay loving, hunter hatters .They even protested when we had the first/last carp shoot at Folsom lake . People where lined up with signs , save the carp . They have NO life and will protest anything . I don't know how i ever lasted 40+ years there .? When we moved and hit the Nevada border , i NEVER looked back .